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Supreme Will Discussion
21 hours ago
To see if these new Challenger decks can in fact be good out of box for $30 with no upgrades I've been testing Counter Surge vs the rest of the decks.
Counter Surge is good out of box it's wrecking the rest of them mostly because the manabase is so much better than Vehicle Rush and Second Sun Control because of 8x Golgari dual lands Aether Hub and Foul Orchard. Being able to produce enough energy to power Hub gives the deck a huge advantage.
3x Verdurous Gearhulk is basically not fair compared to the other decks. Blossoming Defense wrecks Hazoret Aggro. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner wrecks Second Sun Control because Aether Meltdown doesn't stop it from attacking gaining energy. Longtusk Cub and Walk the Plank are the worst cards in the deck and could easily be cut for Servant of the Conduit or Merfolk Branchwalker and Moment of Craving. 3x Dreamstealer is one too many.
Budget upgrades for Counter Surge:
- Cut 4x Cub for 4x Servant or Branchwalker
- Cut 1x Dreamstealer and 2x Walk the Plank for 3x Moment of Craving
- Cut 2x Appetite for the Unnatural for 2x Naturalize
- Cut 1x Slice in Twain for 1x Lost Legacy
- Cut 1x Cartouche of Ambition for 1x Crook of Condemnation
Vehicle Rush has a great decklist out of box, the best of the decks, but the manabase is shit. It's also missing Abrade in the 75 cards. The manabase is relying too much on Spire of Industry it needs 4x Inspiring Vantage. Aether Hub doesn't make sense for the deck other than using this land as an appealing reason to buy this product. Buy it for the complete decklist and put some money or trade into upgrading the manabase with Vantage. 4x Heart is a big draw it's still Standard legal for the rest of the year. A card or more could be printed in the next few sets that could break Heart again.
Budget upgrades for Vehicle Rush:
- Cut 3x Hub for 3x more Vantage
- Cut 2x Evolving Wilds for 1x more Dragonskull Summit and 1x more Swamp
- Cut 2x Lightning Strike for 2x Abrade
- Cut 3x Harsh Mentor for 1x more Abrade, 1x more Cast Out and 1x Ixalan's Binding
Hazoret Aggro is not good out of box it lacks punch; it needs Earthshaker Khenra and Invigorated Rampage to make up for having only one Hazoret. Harsh Mentor doesn't do enough for the deck to warrant main deck spots. It's a sideboard card in Vehicle Rush, but some reason it's a main deck card in Hazoret Aggro?
4x Fanatical Firebrand is very lackluster. 8x main deck burn spells that can go to the face and 4x Ahn-Crop Crasher are saving graces for the deck. Crasher is the best card in the deck because you draw it much more than singleton Hazoret, Chandra or Glorybringer. 4x Chandra's Defeat in the sideboard is strange as it hits very few cards vs all the other decks. 2x Defeat and 2x more Abrade is better to stop Verdurous and Heart. Buy this product purely for the three stand out cards: Chandra, Hazoret and Glorybringer.
Budget upgrades for Hazoret Aggro:
- Cut 3x Mentor for 3x Earthshaker
- Move 2x Pia Nalaar from sideboard to main deck replacing 2x Firebrand
- Cut 2x Magma Spray for 2x Invigorated Rampage
- New sideboard: 3x Spray, 2x Mentor, 2x more Abrade, 2x Defeat, 2x Kari Zev's Expertise, 2x more Rampage, 2x Key
Second Sun Control is the worst of the decks out of box. You need more time to cast Approach of the Second Sun better cards to delay your opponent. The manabase could be better needs budget 4x Meandering River or 2-4x Aether Hub or both. You need to be able to hit double white, but 12x Islands which includes 2x Ipnu Rivulet is not helping. Aether Meltdown and Glimmer of Genius can power Hub.
The lack of Essence Scatter in the 75 cards is confusing, to upgrade start by including 3-4x Scatter. Kefnet is not a very good second win condition, but it's the Mythic in the deck, can't cut it right? A second copy of Settle the Wreckage would of been better than a second Kefnet.
The best thing about Meltdown is flash, but overall it's not a good card because it doesn't prevent the creature enchanted by it from attacking which is not good vs Bomat Courier or Glint-Sleeve, two of the best cards in these decks vs Control. It is however good to stop Heart of Kiran, but I would cut some for Baffling End because it can exile Scrapheap Scrounger, Earthshaker, Dreamstealer as well as Glint-Sleeve or Bomat all these creatures are hard for Control to deal with. 4x Cast Out, 4x Censor, 4x Supreme Will, 3x Fumigate, 1x Settle the Wreckage and 4x Irrigated Farmland are the reasons to buy this product. This is a nice a starting core of a Control deck, but not sure it's worth an investment of $30.
If budget upgrading I would make a lot of changes. New main deck:
- 1x Kefnet
- 4x Censor
- 3x Scatter
- 3x Will
- 1x Cancel
- 4x Glimmer
- 1x Pull from Tomorrow
- 4x Cast
- 2x Baffling
- 2x Meltdown
- 1x Farm
- 3x Fumigate
- 2x Settle
- 3x Approach
- 4x Farmland
- 4x River
- 2x Hub
- 2x Ipnu
- 6x Island
- 6x Plains
- 2x Ruin
In the end, if I was to buy one of these decks to just play right out of box I would get Counter Surge. If I wanted the best constructed decklist I would buy Vehicle Rush, but it requires upgrading the manabase to compete with Counter Surge. If I want the most monetary value for my $30, but the deck is not good out of box then I would get Hazoret Aggro.
The only deck I would avoid is Second Sun Control because I feel it's no good out of box requiring too many upgrades and Kefnet is a let down. Too bad the Mythic wasn't Torrential Gearhulk.
4 days ago
Nice idea you have forming but I would cut Raiders' Wake for copies of primal amulet . I know you don't need to get the raid trigger for wake to be useful, but it is overall slow and has no immediate impact on the game when played. While Amulet falls into a similar category of no immediate impact; it does make it so your Torment of Hailfire becomes lethal almost as soon as you can cast it from the flip in a lot of cases. The Amulets reduction to costs is also very helpful in most ways for your deck.
I would also suggest removing a few of the bounce cards to allow for some more counter magic: Disallow. This way you can have a more permanent solution to threats being cast and can stop someone from using Field of Ruin on your flipped Amulet.
1 week ago
stensiagamekeeper I like some of the recommendations you made. You are right. I did not have anything to help with protection in early game and my friends are aggro style players so this makes sense. I added Festering Mummy because my friends do play cards pretty early and I can buff this card if it stays on the field. Never makes a lot of sense in this deck and cuts down the price of it enough to add a side board and still stay under $100. Im not to worried about Field of Ruin. Most of my friends don't mess with lands so unless it becomes an issue I am going to keep it where its at because it works the way it is. Supreme Will I am going to test out but I think it will do good as well. Thanks for the advice!
1 week ago
marowakcity - i dont think the deck can get aggressive fast enough to outrace the actual aggressive decks, so having more midrangey options are pretty important. Also, thats what the 6 islands are for :D
InfinityMinusOne - I havent done any testing for this at all yet actually. So I couldnt tell you what works or not. That being said, Izzet Staticaster is there for lingering souls, but it also helps out against decks like infect and surprisingly, storm. I like Supreme Will a lot! I just forgot about it! I might drop 1 Izzet Charm and the Beast Within for the wills. Beast could be alright, but honestly seems bad on a cascade
1 week ago
Hello! I've been attempting to construct a smilar deck over the past few days (albeit on a stricter budget) and have been searching for ideas. I have a couple questions:
1) What is the purpose of Izzet Staticaster? Is it just for token/Lingering Souls matchups, or do you also use it versus decks that have 1-toughness mana dorks? How successful have you been with it?
1 week ago
I commented on the first version of this you posted and I like the changes you've made so far. BTW I'll comment on the deck shown not the one you reference in the description because I've already given my opinion on it last time.
A couple of cards I think might be helpful in your deck are Plague Belcher and Festering Mummy. PB is a 3/2 menace zombie with evasion that can be a 5/4 for three in a pinch plus has zombie synergy. FM is surprisinly good against fast aggro and both have incidental synergy with The Scorpion God on top of being zombies. Also if you where going to include a sideboard you could save FM for exclusively aggro matchups as you desperately need spells to play on your early turns.
Speaking of sideboards my suggestions would be Negate and Duress for combo and control, Moment of Craving and Festering Mummy for aggro and auras and Harsh Scrutiny or Aether Poisoner for stompy a.k.a. dinos.
Now on to the more nit picky suggestions: Impale is certainly not a bad card but the fact is there are just better options in standard right now such as Never//Return, Walk the Plank and Daring Demolition even. And, while exile is a nonbo with The Scarab God and The Scorpion God, Hour of Glory and Vraska's Contempt are irreplaceable in getting rid of your opponent's Gods, Rekindling Phoenixs or Angel of Sanctionses. I'd suggest swapping a Mountain for Island so your opponent can't cut your on blue with Field of Ruin. Also I'd use Supreme Will over Disallow as because it'd be easier to cast with your budget manna base and the restriction isn't that big a deal. If your opponent can pay it is late enough in the game that you should probably wait for something big enough that they can't or just use it's second mode to dig for Bolas or something.
Anyway, that's all from me. Have fun testing.
1 week ago
Hey, you have a good starting build here, but the numbers on some spells are off as well as not enough lands in the manabase. The main thing you recognize that's good for Control is Torrential Gearhulk. Gearhulk only works with instants meaning sorceries are not part of the plan. If you can build a main deck of completely instants than it will be better with Gearhulk.
Lots of main deck discard with Gearhulk is not good. In fact the only discard I suggest you play is 3-4x Duress, but only in the sideboard. Speaking of sideboard if you want to play this deck at FNM and do well you'll need a sideboard. You currently don't have one.
First lets look the manabase. 20x lands is not enough land for Control; 26x lands is the normal for Control decks. The reason for this much land is Control thrives on making a land drop each turn because the more land you have the more opportunities you have to cast spells. Being able to cast two spells or more in a single turn is a goal that a Control player is going for. Glimmer of Genius is the jumping off point for blue Control you want to cast it turn four because this gives you a huge advantage in a game. The only way to consistently cast it turn four is to play a lot of land. You want to make a land drop each turn for the first four turns minimum. In some instances if you miss a land drop in the first four turns then that's it, you'll fall too far behind in the game and lose. It's better to have more lands, draw more lands than not having enough.
Lands I suggest you add depend on the budget. What is the budget you're going for? High or low? For instance Fetid Pools is the other good dual land to add, but it's for a high budget. An alternative to this is Submerged Boneyard which is bad compared to Pools, but is low budget. Either way I suggest adding 4x Pools or 4x Boneyard.
Before I continue here's a list of cards to consider adding:
- 4x Fetid Pools or 4x Submerged Boneyard
- 2x more Swamp
- 2x more Censor
- 2x more Fatal Push
- 3x Vraska's Contempt or 3x Hour of Glory
- 2x more Glimmer of Genius
- 2x Moment of Craving with 2x more in the sideboard
- 2x Supreme Will
- 1x Commit / Memory
- 2x The Scarab God
- 2x Search for Azcanta Flip
Obviously if you have a lower budget then you will not being able to add all these cards such as Scarab, Azcanta and Contempt. This list is meant to give you an idea of how to improve the deck with a higher budget, but I've also added some low budget alternatives.
Cards to consider cutting:
- 4x Duress move it to the sideboard
- 4x Scrutiny possibly move it to the sideboard
- 3x Rot
- 4x Pierce
- 4x Opt
- 2x Gonti move it to the sideboard
On the basis that you should consider adding 6x more lands you need to cut 6x spells from the deck. I suggest beginning with cutting the discard spells.
Good Gearhulk Control main deck core:
- 4x Push
- 4x Censor
- 4x Disallow
- 4x Glimmer
- 3-4x Gearhulk
The core are cards that are played as 4ofs and the only cards other than lands in the main deck that I recommend be played as 4ofs. You want to draw multiplies of them in a game and in some instances you want some of them in the early game such as Push and Censor therefore it's best that they're 4ofs to consistently draw them in the early game. Disallow is the best mid to late game counterspell and Glimmer is the cornerstone, the draw engine of the deck.
Support removal to consider adding:
Vraska's Contempt is a very good instant spell right now in Standard. It's unconditional creature or Planeswalker exile with adding lifegain. A spell like this is currently unmatched in power in Standard especially when you can flash it back for free with Gearhulk. Contempt or it's budget alternative Hour of Glory are very much wanted with Control because of the domination of the Gods: Hazoret the Fervent and The Scarab God. These creatures can only consistently be killed if they're exiled. The Gods are not the only reason to play Contempt there's a lot of just very annoying powerful creatures and Planeswalkers that are better exiled then put in the graveyard.
Hour of Glory is the best low budget Contempt because it's also four mana, instant and unconditional exile. It can't however exile a Planeswalker only a creature and it doesn't gain you life, but these are the reasons that it's low budget.
The fact of the matter is creatures dominate Standard, more specifically red creatures. Red creatures usually means aggro and preparing the main deck to combat aggro is the build direction I suggest. Craving not only can potentially kill something, but also gain you life which is what you want in aggro matchups especially red where you have to also deal with burn spells to the face. Commit is a fun card as a 1of with Gearhulk. You can flash it back and cast Memory for free refilling your hand at instant speed because you're casting it from the graveyard this interaction works even though Memory is technically a sorcery, but Commit is an instant.
Support counterspells to consider adding:
- 2x Supreme Will
Censor and Disallow are the two most important main deck counterpells third is Essence Scatter and fourth is Supreme Will. You're already playing 3x Scatter that's good it's a good number. I suggest adding a couple Will because the card is never really dead because of it's modes. It can counter something in the mid to late game or if you don't need that you can use to to dig for an answer, Glimmer or Gearhulk. I don't think Spell Pierce is a good main deck card for Control because it can't in anyway interact with creatures and creatures much more than spells are the problem cards for Control for game ones. 3x Negate however should go in the sideboard because it's amazing in Control matchups or matchups where you know that a certain noncreature card is going to be a problem such as a Planeswalker, artifact, enchantment or Approach of the Second Sun, etc.
If this advice was helpful I have more suggestions and advice about the sideboard. Let me know if you like me to continue.
Good luck with your deck.
1 week ago
Thanks LeBeerCat! I definitely need to run a full playset of Opt in the deck, but so far I haven't been able to get my hands on the other 2 I need. I can see myself including 2-3 Supreme Will in the sideboard against more control-heavy decks. So, have you updated your deck? It would be very interesting to see your take on that.