SOI - G/B Control
Standard
SCORE: 52 | 160 COMMENTS | 11302 VIEWS | IN 37 FOLDERS
More Changes —April 5, 2016
I made a relatively big overhaul. I started not liking where the deck was heading. It started becoming more of an amalgamation of suggestions rather then a deck I wanted to pilot. It stopped feeling like a mid-range deck and more like an aggro deck with some late game bombs.
Here are the changes:
Let's start with the creatures as that is probably the biggest change in the deck.
Deathcap Cultivator is getting the axe. Even in a mid range deck most of my threats are going to be at the top end curve of 4, yes I will have a few 5 drops and 6 drops, but this is not a ramp deck, nor is it a control deck who only has those 5/6 drops as their win condition and dropping out a Chandra a turn early will win me the game. I mean, dropping a Chandra a turn or 2 early is definitely going to shake up my opponent and potentially win me the game, but I feel like this deck can buy out turns by simply being aggressive and using removal/card disruption to do so. The late game bombs here are to secure the win, not the primary wincon.
Dragonlord Atarka & Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, these two got cut for the same reason, although admittedly I might try to sneak Kalitas back in the side or main as a 2 of rather than a 1 of. Having a toolbox aspect with Traverse the Ulvenwald was nice as it allowed me to have those couple of 1-of and still get to the as I need them; however, it felt lack luster and this Jund deck, like many, prefers consistency over tool-box style build. I also feel that taking that route would be more efficient if I completely went all out with it and use Traverse as a Worldly Tutor first, and mana fixer second. Unfortunately in the few tests I did here on tapped out, for however much that helps, I often blew threw most copies to manafix or when I missed a land drop. I get it has value in the deck in the sense that I can blow potentially all 4 copies to mana fix and then later drop a GDD and recur it to fetch an Atarka, but I feel like that might be a very rare scenario, or maybe I am wrong, I am pretty bed at deck building when it isn't a control shell :)
Tireless Tracker is one such card that I hesitate to cut because I see the potential of this card, but I am not sure this deck is where it can be used to its fullest. Not sure, but this card felt very hit or miss to me. There were times where this guy got 2 clues cracked and became a 5/4, and that's massively big in the coming standard, and was enough to force bad trades or at least throw chump blockers under him; however, there were also games where he was just a 3/2 that could get blocked and killed. I do like the card, and that I also very much like the fact that it allows you to just play this guy, throw land drops, crack clues, get him big, and just have him out until he is dealt with, and not over extend into a boardwipe, but he just doesn't feel consistent and as a 3/2 the body just isn't impressive to me.
So what am I filling these 10 slots with?
Sin Prodder, yeap, going back to this guy. I said some bad thing about this dood, but I love it none the less. He was cut to make space for Tireless Tracker as I thought it was more consistent in both card draw and damage, but I am not sure why I thought that. The Tracker gets bigger, true, but can be more easily blocked and his card draw requires time and mana invested into it; while on the other hand, Prodder will always dig 2 cards, regardless of what gets thrown in the bin, and can get damage in more reliably both through his burn aspect and by the fact that he has Menace allowing him to get in for some damage early or at least forcing unfavorable blocks for my opponent. The thing I like about Prodder, other than being the main reason I wanted to build this deck to begin with, is that he offers potential damage and "card advantage" by just sitting there. He is coming back as a 3 of instead of a full playset.
Mindwrack Demon , this is part of the reason to bring back the Prodder as well. This guy is a very aggressive flier, and I really want to try this guy out in the deck, but for that to happen I need to be able to enable Delirium efficiently, and the Prodder helps with that. The other important part is that this guy can brawl with a non-flipped Avacyn and that's going to count for a lot.
Hangarback Walker is a value creature I originally didn't want to run, but it is an effective way to enable Delirium and well....he is overall good, even with the many exile effects currently in standard.
Those are the new inclusions, but that's only going to fill 8 slots out of the 10 that were made. Well, time to go onto the non-creature spells.
What's getting cut?
Traverse the Ulvenwald is getting the axe for a couple of reasons. The primary reason is that even though now enabling Delirium will be easier, without the 1-of to fetch out it looses the appeal it had for when I had the small tool box aspect in the deck. Fetching creatures based on the scenario is still fairly powerful, and maybe this is the wrong cut, however for the most part this will be grabbing lands to put into my hand, so for now it's getting chopped.
Dead Weight is ok removal. It isn't great, it isn't bad, but it was here to trigger Delirium for Luigi and Traverse, but without those and better ways to trigger Delirium, I can opt out for better removal options.
Kolaghan's Command is one of my all time favorite cards in magic; however, with the self milling and possible life loss going on I feel like I need better recursion available. Losing the possible removal is a nuisance but trade-offs have to be made.
That is 9 open spots, along the other 2, that makes a total of 11 open slots. Here is what I am going to include to fill those spots.
Oath of Nissa is going to replace Traverse. While it won't allow me to fetch a specific basic or creature later in the game, it is going to be more useful overall, and it is going to help me get Delirium as I will be able to get this in the graveyard simply by just playing another.
Pulse of Murasa is moving from the side onto the main to replace K. Command. It is going to help me a bit more both to pad the life loss that I might lose from Mindwrack if I don't have Delirium online, and it helps me get back anything that might get binned and not just creatures.
Transgress the Mind as it does what hand disruption does: gets rid of threats before they hit the board, or gets rid of threats your other removal can't touch. This might end up getting replaced by hard removal but for now it will sit as is.
To the Slaughter is going to fill up the last couple of spots. I originally had this in the deck and then ended up cutting it, but with how easy it will be to trigger Delirium I think I can get some real value off of this. Instant speed answer to Ojutai, Avacyn, and Chandra are going to be very important, and I think this can do the job. Especially after playing with Foul-Tongue Invocation and seeing how good that was in my dragon's deck, I think this will be even better.
That leaves 2 spots open in the sideboard that will be filled with 2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
That's it for now for the changes, quite a big overhaul, but I think it will work.
AlgrinStonecloak says... #2
The_Riddlebox Yeah, I think in a build like this, she doesn't give that edge you'd want. I actually ended up moving my build to strictly G/B and going deeper into a reliance on Creature based abilities to interact.
PS: Dead Weight might be required to turn on your Traverse the Ulvenwald
PSS: Here's my list; A Shady Rock
I'd love any feedback you have, that goes to anyone who sees this. I appreciate it all!
April 1, 2016 3:07 p.m.
How come there's no Olivia, Mobilized for War? It's really great, you can probably replace Fiery Impulse with Fiery Temper in a few situations and get more value from Den Protector with her!
April 1, 2016 6:27 p.m.
NotSquishedYet says... #4
I believe there were two of it in here, but they got removed because they did not seem to perform too well. I suppose it could support Mindwrack Demon.
April 1, 2016 8:02 p.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #5
Yeah, what NotSquishedYet said. I actually started with 3 in the deck, then ended cutting one to make space for other stuff, and after discussing it with another user I cam to this conclusion: Olivia needs to be drawn and played early to get the most advantage out of her, if not played early she isn't that useless but a 3/3 with Flying is very unimpressive late game. Maybe she has potential, but as the game goes longer I feel like she gradually loses value, and having only 2 in the deck is simply not worth the slots.
That said, even if I had Olivia, not sure I would run Fiery Temper, it wouldn't be enough discard outlet to warrant the sue, and I am also not caring much about he burn, as removal spell Fiery Impulse is just better, but if you are an aggressive deck then Temper probably is better as it can bolt an opponent as well. I however only need the removal and not the burn.
April 1, 2016 11:18 p.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #6
I wonder if it's a better call to completely remove the Fiery Impulse, as Dead Weight does a similar job, and put the Ultimate Price back in.
April 2, 2016 3:44 a.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #8
Yes and no. Obviously it is 1cmc 2 damage, or 3 with Spell Mastery, at instant speed; which obviously sounds better than -2/-2 at sorcery speed. However, in case you have not noticed, there are a whole lot of creatures that are going to have 2 toughness or less in the new standard, not only that but Spell Mastery won't always be active in the early turns since this deck has a relatively low number of Instants/Sorceries. That being said, if you look at the last update I posted, I mentioned why I put in the Dead Weight. Since I might try out Mindwrack Demon, getting delirium as soon as possible is very needed, and having Enchantments that are easy to get into the graveyard definitely helps, and if we go back to the fact that a lot of decks are going to be running 2 toughness or less creatures then Dead Weight acts like a sorcery speed Fiery Impulse that also makes it easier to enable Delirium. Enabling Delirium also helps with Deathcap Cultivator and Traverse the Ulvenwald.
April 3, 2016 8:52 p.m.
cdunn92483 says... #9
May I recommend Sin Prodder, after playing with it any against it this weekend I now realize it's serious power.. Also in this deck you can bring stuff back from the yard
April 3, 2016 8:56 p.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #10
Thanks for the suggestion. I am glad to hear that it did well in testing in a sealed event, which may not mean it is good in constructed, but it does mean it definitely could be. I originally had Sin Prodder in the deck, it was actually the main reason why I initially wanted to run Jund colors. The problem became that the deck was a little too lackluster, that meant I had to make cuts. The only card I could see cutting to make room for it is Tireless Tracker as it does a similar purpose: offers card advantage. If it looks like that the Tracker under-performs, I will definitely try out the Prodder in its place, until then I really don't have any room for it, unless I cut Arlinn Kord Flip and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, which I would rather cut for something like Mindwrack Demon or Thunderbreak Regent.
April 3, 2016 9:12 p.m.
NotSquishedYet says... #11
Having played Wolves at a prerelease yesterday, you are not cutting Arlinn. Not a chance in hell. Games where I did not draw her were grindy and close, with many opportunities for my opponent to crush me with good plays. Games where I drew her, I didn't even have opposition. I won all of them with ease, and she never died.
I also highly recommend Vessel of Nascency and Kindly Stranger Flip. Turn 3 Delirium with draw-fixing and digging was AMAZING. The Stranger was valuable, and game one was conceded as I used Arlinn's -6, played the Stranger, flipped it to kill Drogskol Cavalry, and tapped it to kill Thing in the Ice Flip with two counters.
April 3, 2016 9:23 p.m.
1) Have you found you need Traverse the Ulvenwald for manafixing? If not, do you have Delirium consistently? I really feel like, unless in testing you really need it for manafixing, it's only good if you have Delirium consistently. Otherwise you could go down on it and put in some other removal.One thing to consider with Sin Prodder, which is admittedly a card I really like, is that it does dump things into your graveyard if your opponent chooses to, which can turn on Delirium faster. Especially considering they'll always throw something like Dead Weight in the yard even if they don't have creatures you can kill with it-- meaning you wouldn't have any other way to get it in there.
2) Again, I haven't tested your manafixing yet, but I've been testing my own similar build and even with four Deathcap Cultivators it can be pretty difficult to get double colors, including double black. It'll be hard to know before the meta is stable, but you should consider Ultimate Price or even To the Slaughter mainboard instead of Grasp of Darkness in my opinion. It'll be easier on your mana, and all of your other removal is already conditional on p/t. The one big draw of running black is that you get "destroy" effects instead of "damage" effects! I saw you considered this already, but even against things like Avacyn-- Ultimate Price is fine removal except for the turn she comes down, which will probably be a flash in anyway.
3) I don't think you need Goldnight Castigator in the sideboard. Your deck is not super aggro, and she's more of a finisher for a fast deck than something you want sticking around on your board. I just can't think of any matchup where you want to bring her in.
I've got a bunch of Jund/Gruul lists on my page if you want to check them out to see what I'm up to!
April 3, 2016 9:28 p.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #13
I don't want to cut Arlinn, I really hope she works like a champ, but if she is underwhelming and doesn't impact the board-state that hard she is getting the axe for something that will.
I am really not sold on the Vessels, I think they are all pretty bad. It might be good in limited, but in constructed I really don't like it. It does help Delirium, but I feel like it is a very MEH card. The same goes for Kindly Stranger Flip, that's a a lot of mana invested on a very mediocre creature just to get it to transform and kill a creature. I would rather just run a removal at that point. That combo might be fine in limited, but in constructed it seems clunky and slow.
As always I might be terribly wrong in evaluating new cards, but one thing to keep in mind is that what works in limited does not always work in constructed.
I can't say I tested this deck a whole lot. Traverse the Ulvenwald acts as more than just manafix, which you are aware of considering some of your comments later on. It allows me to manafix, while offering value in the late game and allows me to have a slight "tool box" feel to the deck by running a couple of 1 of bombs or situational creatures. It is also an additional card type that gets thrown in the bin to enable Delirium, and I feel like it helps with early plays that do require black mana. Overall I am not sure how to judge how badly this deck need mana fixing due to the lack of testing. I do agree that Sin Prodder does help with getting Delirium online, and I like the card too, but the problem that I keep running into is the lack of spots in the deck. As I mentioned in a reply to another user if Tracker is under-performing I will try Prodder in it's place as they are the same cmc and both are supposed to act as a sort of card advantage engine.
You make a good point on running Ultimate Price over Grasp of Darkness because of the mana intensity. The only worry I have is that I am not sure how many staple threats will be multicolored vs. monocolored. I feel that 4 toughness is going to pretty much cover almost every creature in standard shy of something like a flipped Avacyn or Thing in the Ice Flip, but similarly there are going to be a whole lot more monocolored creatures this rotation as well. This will require testing and exploring the meta a bit more. I could always replace Fiery Impulse with Ultimate Price, and add more black mana producing lands so I wouldn't have as big of an issue casting Grasp of Darkness and just have more well rounded removal in the main period.
Goldnight Castigator is a very aggressive creature thanks to having Haste stapled on there. This mid-range beater would be sided in against Ramp/Control matchups where the deck operates slower than most other decks and where I need to win as fast as possible before they get their threats online. Castigator, thanks to the haste, requires an instant speed response at hand or it smacks you in the face for 4 right off the bat. I am not the best at deck building, so maybe this is a terrible choice, but only testing and seeing the meta will be able to tell if Castigator is a terrible card, or all star answer to slower decks. One thing to note is that the Castigator is one hell of a walker killer too.
April 3, 2016 11:20 p.m.
AlgrinStonecloak says... #14
The_Riddlebox "You make a good point on running Ultimate Price over Grasp of Darkness because of the mana intensity."
My counterpoint to this; Eldrazi/Devoid creatures are going to be a large part of standard still. You won't interact in the slightest with Ramp and any Eldrazi based build. I recommend just sticking to Grasp and toying with the mana base.
April 4, 2016 4:46 a.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #15
That's also a good point. I can't say i am overly worried about Eldrazi, and any Eldrazi that's of any real threat to this deck, especially if from ramp, is going to have toughness greater than 4. Regardless, like I hin't in the remainder of the reply, if I move Ultimate Price back in it would be in Place of Fiery Impulse as to warrant an increase in red mana. As it stands, Grasp is staying.
April 4, 2016 5:59 a.m.
Stephenburgin106 says... #16
If I may say, I don't think you should play deathcap. Having one ramp creature seems weird, and ramping isn't what the deck does. You want card advantage, and deathcap isn't. granted he turns into a removal spell if you have delirium, but i don't think that's justification for that. I would rather run something that's more jundy, that slows your opponent down, or provides great card advantage.
April 4, 2016 8:26 a.m.
AlgrinStonecloak says... #17
@Stephenburgin106 @The_Riddlebox I think you're right! I just realized the only thing missing from a list like this is Duress and/or Transgress the Mind.This deck could also consider Pick the Brain Think about it, You play it turn 3 to pick a relevant card helping you play your game the next few turns. THEN you get to flash it back with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and likely trigger the Delirium for EXTRA value. That's pretty sweet. I think Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Pick the Brain could be really good friends in this deck.
April 4, 2016 9:16 a.m.
Stephenburgin106 says... #18
I'm more of a transgress person myself, I feel like three mana is a lot for a thoughtseize that exiles since most card you'd pick would be transgressable by then anyway, and by going transgress instead delirium isn't a concern, and doesn't need to be worried about.
April 4, 2016 9:30 a.m.
ComputerizedMTG says... #19
He isn't here to ramp, he is here to color fix. I look at him literally as another playset of Hissing Quagmire. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at it, and maybe I should drop him especially because he does clash with Sylvan Advocate for the same spot on the curve. What would you suggest I replace him with?
I had Duress/Transgress in the MB, then ended up moving it them to the side board, and then ended up cutting them completely. That may have been a mistake and will try to find a spot for them back into the side, not sure how I like them in the main board for this build. I am not a big fan of Pick the Brain it's an expensive Thoughtseize, that needs delirium to make it act like a sort of Slaughter Games; I would just rather have Duress or Transgress the Mind instead.
Thank you both for the suggestions.
ComputerizedMTG says... #1
The more I think about it the more I see Arlinn Kord Flip being slightly disappointing in this deck. I will probably still test her, but what do you guys think about dropping the 2 Arlinn, and moving Kalitas to the side to make room for 3 Mindwrack Demon, Deathmist Raptor, or Thunderbreak Regent?
April 1, 2016 8:45 a.m.