|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Modern Masters (MMA)||Rare|
|Time Spiral (TSP)||Rare|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
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Suspend 3— (Rather than cast this card from your hand, pay and exile it with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.)
, Sacrifice Lotus Bloom: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.
Lotus Bloom Discussion
1 month ago
I was thinking you would have a few strong Artifacts/other colourless cards that could easily be spotted into any deck. For example, , , Ante a card from your hand: counter target spell with CMC, x or less, where X is CMC of Anted card.” Or Lotus Bloom where you ante it, not sacrifice it.
Little tiny cards that have decent effects and could easily be slotted into decks on the fly.
1 month ago
I'm thinking you'll want to maximize on artifacts that are sacrificed in order to reap great benefit.
If you want access to some great ramp for you deck, Tooth of Ramos and Heart of Ramos will allow you to get 2 mana from them. After they are sacrificed, if Gerrard dies you get them back for free. Now I'm not sure on the technicality / legality of it, but I believe Horn of Ramos , Skull of Ramos and Eye of Ramos can also be used in your deck. Their errata text contains the mana symbols, but the physical cards do not; They list the color by name, not by identification. So I believe they are legal in all decks, regardless of colors.
- Arcbound Ravager can go full beast mode
- Burnished Hart is an obvious must
- Boros Cluestone card advantage
- Boros Locket more card advantage
- Cataclysmic Gearhulk is a recurring boardwipe
- Dreamstone Hedron gives you massive card advantage
- Glaring Spotlight amazing finisher
- Hedron Archive more card advantage
- Hope of Ghirapur lock on a single player
- Idol of Oblivion finisher
- Krark-Clan Ironworks explosive turns
- Kuldotha Forgemaster tutors
- Life Chisel life
- Lotus Bloom ramp
- Lotus Petal more ramp
- Metalwork Colossus free cast
- Mind Stone card advantage
- Mindslaver and I can not stress this enough, Mindslaver
- Mishra's Bauble card advantage
- Phyrexian Dreadnought bomb and you get back your artifact creatures
- Ratchet Bomb disgusting one-sided removal if you put 2 - 3 charge counters on it to blow up stones
- Universal Solvent awesome spot removal
- Wayfarer's Bauble ramp and deck filtering
Probably a few I missed but there you go.
2 months ago
Uhm, well, like most Mox Opal decks, there isn't really a great substitute in terms of power. I'd up the land count slightly and try Izzet Signet and Dimir Signet but just remember that you're going to be slower than you would with the Opal. Really the deck will still have turn 4 wins without Opal, so it's not the end of the world to go without if you aren't grinding tournaments.
You could also try Mox Tantalite and/or Lotus Bloom , which are still slower but can give you the boost of mana in time for the fourth turn, which is generally when you'll combo off. I'd lean towards Lotus Bloom if I was trying those.
3 months ago
@ Natux No offense taken mate, respectful discussion is how people learn, grow and come to understand new ideas. I'm definitely not the world's greatest gift to cEDH and I'm constantly striving to pick up information where I can from whomever I can.
I, by no means, assumed you were a new to cEDH player. Those players tend not to have well crafted lists and solid understandings of the meta and you clearly do. I did rather assume that the quality of competition you face in terms of players and decks is liable to be less than the quality of competition I tend to play with, but this is generally true considering my playgroup consists of 4 regulars who've all played for nearly 25 years and who all (minus myself) have achieved success at the professional level of play (I'm legit the only one in the play group without a single life time pro point, sad face), both at Pro Tours and GPs. The percentages I'm using come directly from our tracked data of games played. There's all sorts of info out there for Modern, Standard, Legacy and what not, but there is very little meta information collected when it comes to EDH so we started tracking our own when I first got really into EDH about 2 and a half years back. The program has about 8000 games worth of data at this point and is a nifty resource, I absolutely recommend using Excel to start tracking your own data.
I also don't want to give the impression that I don't comprehend your decks intended game plan, that much seemed pretty clear. It's just that using Yidris as a back up plan for a storm concept probably isn't ideal use of either Yidris or the storm archetype. Consultation Kess has a similar game plan and is significantly better at executing it, both because of the enhancement that game plan gets from the command zone and because of the card selection typical of those decks. Granted it isn't exactly the most potent gameplan in the meta, but I'm just using it as an example. It's not that you can't use Yidris as a back up, it's just that this isn't the most ideal use of Yidris. You might as well be all in on the ultra fast combo approach or opt into a different commander that better executes that style of gameplan, or even opt into a superior gameplan in the same colors and simply run the Sultai PS shell of Thrasios/Smasher. If it's going to be Yidris, might as well do Yidris things the Yidris way. Again, it's not that Yidris can't perform in a different fashion, it's just that there are better options generally for that style.
Land count isn't an exact thing, but there are some pretty common understandings in terms of the math. 44 out of 99 is a solid percentage, it generally means you'll be seeing the proper amount of mana sources in opening hands to facilitate your game plan. This means less mulligans and greater consistency which translates into more wins per 100 games played. That ratio (with the sub ratio of 28/16) means the odds for a typical opening hand will have that hand consist of 2 lands and one ramp piece. Your deck is a bit shy of that at 27/15 and 2 of those rocks are Lotus Bloom and Lion's Eye Diamond which aren't really effective ramp pieces. You'll probably have to mulligan 7-10% more often than you otherwise would per 100 games played just because of that mana source count, just something for you to consider.
I think what you're really looking for is something specific though, so let me see if I can provide an example of a specific change that would improve the deck. You're currently running Goblin Electromancer , primarily in a cost reduction role. This isn't an awful card, but the function it serves is pretty limited. It's only reducing Sorceries and Instants, and you have Baral to supplement that. If both are out on the field at the same time, very little of your deck is going to benefit from them both being out, it's just your wheel effects, Yawg Will, Force of Will, and Ad Naus. You could instead replace that card with Helm of Awakening and now all those cards would still benefit, but so would some of your enchantments, all your artifacts, and some of your creatures, significantly improving the quality of your storm turns when you go off. The draw back is negligible when you're storming off as you already are in a position where opponents couldn't stop you from comboing, so they likely can't even make use of it the overwhelming majority of games. In addition, your mana base is much less strained as the cmc is the same compared to the Electromancer, but the lack of color requirement makes casting it significantly easier. Just changing this one card would be an improvement that probably accounts for 1 or 2 more wins per 100 games played with your deck than it currently will achieve.
As for the average winning turn, that kind of stuff rather depends on the matches that get played and the decks included in it, but a useful indicator of relative speed, barring interaction, is the goldfish test. If you goldfish your list 100 times (taking into account mulligan rules in the event these are needed based on opening hands) it's going to average a gold fish win somewhere between turns 4-5. Probably close to 4.3 or 4.4 is my guess (haven't done this with your deck so it's purely an estimation, but I am pretty okay at that). By comparison the average goldfish win turn for my list is in the low 3s, almost a whole turn better. Now this data doesn't actually mean all that much in the grand scheme of things because real games aren't solitaire, but this information can be a useful indicator for relative speed of a deck.
Hopefully all this is a bit more informative, sorry if the first set of responses was a bit more ambiguous.
3 months ago
Hello there yay,
I have seen FurFur's list before. I don't agree that it's an optimisation of this deck, but rather a deck that plays the same commander with a different goal. The goal of his deck it to mill himself and win through an empty library, rather than storm off. This is reflected in some of the card choices, which do not fit this specific style of deck.
The goal of your deck does seem to storm off, although I must admit I fail to see the actual wincon in your deck. I agree with the fact that your deck is faster on average, but not with the fact that it's more consistent. Your deck seems to rely solely on getting your commander out as fast as possible, then win through its ability. If he's ever stopped, there are a lot of cards in your deck that do nothing, while one of the strengths of this deck is that there are very few dead cards. Because of this, I feel the consistency of your deck is lower rather than higher. If, in your meta, Yidris always connects I can see why you would say it's more consistent. Speaking of dead cards outside of cascade turns, Wheel of Fate is one of those cards. I used to play it, but it was often not needed in the cascade turns and absolutely horrible outside of it. Paying two mana and waiting four turns allows your opponents to prepare for it way too well, by countering it or emptying their own hands...if you're not dead before it's being cast. Lotus Bloom and Ancestral Vision at least have lower costs and/or take less long to suspend, as well as providing value only to yourself.
Thanks for the comment and suggestions. If you feel like my assessment is wrong, please correct me. One other thing I'm wondering is whether you ever have problems with your manabase. Your deck seems pretty evenly split among four colours, which seems hard on the manabase. I don't have experience with this, however, so please let me know.
3 months ago
Oloro_Magic I agree with your sentiments towards horizons, it does feel real lackluster in regards to Ad Naus. The only cards I could think of would be Mox Tantalite , Force of Despair , and yes fluster. but FoD is tooo situation forthis deck imo may as well play bontu's, and mox, while strong i think, lotus is obviously better, there could be some argument to removing pentad's or even spoils, but there really isnt a point is there? As for Core20, there's a few cards i find interesting tbh. Scheming Symmetry is one of them, and i honestly think should be tried in place of spoils. yes they can tutor for answers, but like spoils you'd more than likely board it out game 2, but having a modern legal imperial seal just seems too good to not at least try. And honestly i really want to find a way to use Lotus Bloom the card is just so ridiculous. Other than that there's a few cute SB beaters like the blue cavelier
3 months ago
3 months ago
This is a bit of a long one, but I'd like to respond to all the comments haha,
Love the deck name. The First Sliver is very fast and can be brutal when the opponent can't blow you out. Swarming the field can be enough to slaughter your opponent if its 1v1. It's definitely much harder if your partner has killed your commander 3 times and forced it to become 11 cmc! But of course, still very good.
In non 1v1 it could be harder, but then it could be still ok as well, depends on the meta and the politics in the play group. I never realised how important politics were until I played one of my other favourite decks: Queen Marchesa . Sometimes I face 1 control deck and 2 other aggro decks and I find that we all team up to take down the control deck because it can easily blow us all up with an Evacuation or Cyclonic Rift . In a meta full of other aggro decks, sometimes I find there are more threatening challengers, e.g. Edgar Markov which can start of WAY faster, Maelstrom Wanderer which can just win in a single turn, and Reanimator strategies which summon giant unstoppable threats. In a full combo meta, you might find that you get a lot of support if you make deals with people to assist in taking down a combo player. One of my friends was playing Kess, Dissident Mage storm and everyone countered his boardwipes so I could get in to finish him before he went off. Certainly where no one plays politics, you will seem quite threatening because you're the 'sliver' guy (definitely a dirty word). The First Sliver is very threatening, but it has some weaknesses (e.g. board wipes) and may be portrayed as more 'dirty' than it actually is. If you make it clear what your weaknesses are, play it patient + look for windows where you can surprise kill people, and make it clear that you play a role in keeping the peace (that you're valuable to keep alive), it won't be too bad and people won't see The First Sliver as THAT big of a threat (albeit still a threat haha). When you attack, share the love. When you go in for the kill, be sure u can kill them dead.
I hope you have fun at the LGS! I'm actually overseas on vacation at the moment, but in July I'll be back at my LGS and keen to slam some games with this deck.
Thanks for the constructive criticism; I don't think it's negative at all and very useful. I hope I get more comments like this. I'll try to address all the points, please let me know if I missed anything!
- Hitting 5 mana consistently
You'd be surprised at how often the deck is able to get to 5 mana. I based the land count off my predecessor sliver lists, though after play testing, I found that 35 was good myself. We don't really thin the deck of lands so we draw lands quite a lot. If worse comes to worse, you might need to mull, but as soon as you hit 5 lands you can do much of what the deck was designed to do.
We have ramp in the form of Manaweft Sliver , Gemhide Sliver , Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , Herald's Horn , Urza's Incubator and even 2 pseudo-power cards as ramp (as well as ways to search for them/draw them). But you're right about the lack of ramp. Hence, I've I mentioned in one of the previous comments (#10) that I'll be trying to add more "ramp/rocks to ensure consistency as well as enough mana in the late game". Ultimately, however, I do want to minimise the number of non-sliver cards. The gimmick of this deck just aims to cascade as much as possible and play the pseudo-power cards. We don't risk cascading into ramp by accident, which is what I didn't like about my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, so the ceiling is high, but there is the trade-off.
The deck seems to do fine in getting to 5 from what I've seen, though I'll report back after further tests. Even if it doesn't hit 5 lands on 5, it doesn't mean doom. The deck is admittedly quite glass cannon regarding lands, though by virtue, it also has a high ceiling. Maybe after testing more, I'll go up to 36, but I will need to find room for that extra land. I'm considering even putting in utility lands (see comment #10) which will grind us advantage while also adding to the land count.
Much of the lands come in tapped yes, but in the guide I wrote that this was a budget mana base. I also suggested to use fetches, shocks (and even duals) if you had them available to you. The lands will come in tapped in this build, though if you sequence correctly it should not be too much of a hindrance.
Ultimately, I keep my low land count because: As you said I mentioned, the deck is fast. For the most part, 5 mana is all you need to go off because you'll be casting multiple slivers off each trigger (we also have acceleration cards that allow free casting, such as Descendants' Path and the hideaway lands, so we can do more with less mana). This low count also ensures you draw as most slivers as possible.
- Recasting the commander
You are completely correct in noticing the weakness in The First Sliver being removed and being hard to be recasted. In comment #4 I stated that after play testing the The First Sliver became widely feared and was likely to be removed. Therefore I suggested to add in Diffusion Sliver . The idea is to either have enough lands or play protection before you cast The First Sliver (for now, but, as I mentioned, I definitely would like to try tech in more ramp, though what we have now is not too bad). Also, you have to be aware that as soon as you cascade a few times after, you're very likely to hit Mox Tantalite and Lotus Bloom which will keep you in the game until you hit more lands and the card draw engines (including Ancestral Vision ) will draw you into more.
As for protection, I consider cards that leave The First Sliver 's casting cost at 5 as protection as well (I probably should have been more clear about this). As long as you can replay your commander, it can do its job. These include: Crypt Sliver , Hibernation Sliver , Frenetic Sliver , Pulmonic Sliver , Sliver Hivelord , Ward Sliver , Crystalline Sliver and ways of searching. Sometimes these slivers will be situational (e.g. some cannot defend against exile effects), though patience and not presenting yourself as a threat before getting these cards out is the key. Sometimes you just need to play without The First Sliver abit. You can also let your commander go to the grave and use Graveshifter or Volrath's Stronghold .
Again, there are also other utility lands which I want to tech in (see comment #10) which will act as recursion after The First Sliver dies. In saying this, I avoid non-sliver protection spells for the same reason I try minimise ramp spells: ending the cascade chain. Also, I would rather draw slivers or non-sliver cards that accelerate us in the late game + while some of the slivers I mentioned account for board-wipes, the non-creature shroud/hex proof cards will leave you with no slivers to protect after a wrath.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely test with more ramp and lands for sure.
This is an interesting suggestion, I haven't really considered it. Though there seem to be some downsides.
Aetherflux Reservoir could be good as we cast so many spells off cascade. This can lead to finishing opponents off early. However, we don't cast enough spells to gain us up to 111 life (assuming this is a standard game with 4 players and everyone at 40 life, leaving us at 1 after Aetherflux Reservoir ). Based on the triangle number sequence, if we cast 4 creatures we will deal 10 damage. If we cast 5 (the average) we will deal 15 damage. If we cast 6, we will deal 21 damage. This will take at least 6 turns to get to 111 life, by which the opponents will have destruction for the Aetherflux Reservoir and we can't protect it, lacking any counters in the deck (a bit too glass cannon?). We are also so aggressive that we can normally already kill under 6 turns when we do go off. Because the lack of defensiveness this deck has, we will also be taking a lot of damage from other aggro decks. This will be worse for us if we play Aetherflux Reservoir , because we will likely become more archenemy than we already are; we can definitely take out 1 or 2 players, but our life will be too at risk from the last player. This also encourages going all out with casting our hand, which may cause us to over-extend and blow out.
This may be assisted by Essence Sliver though such may be a bit inconsistent. Furthermore, it's a risk to cascade into it and is a card that we don't necessarily want in the late game, having cast everything we have already.
Though again, my theorising is all on paper and I might give it a try? In practice who's to say it won't work? With aggression from our deck we may not even need to reach 100 life. Very interesting suggestion.
- Thank you all for the feedback! I like constructive criticism and will continue to improve this build.
Lotus Bloom occurrence in decks from the last year
All decks: 0.04%
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%