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Infernal Tribute Discussion
1 month ago
You are going to need more than 12 lands. Whenever I build a deck, I always start with 40 lands and then for every 3 pieces of ramp, which for a mono black deck would be a mana rock or swamp doubler or ritual spell like Dark Ritual, I remove a land.
Please retune the deck with 12 non-land mana sources and 36 swamps for starters and you can think of non-swamp lands you want to include later.
My suggestions for those sources are any 12 of the following, depending on your budget:
Songs of the Damned
Cabal Coffers <- could replace a swamp
Pristine Talisman <- defiantly want that
After that you've got the commander, which takes up 1 card slot, so that leaves you with 51 cards to choose from.
I see the bare beginnings of either an aristocrats or a reanimator deck. In my opinion you should push more for aristocrats. It can draw you tons of cards and gain you quite a lot of life. There's no harm in keeping some reanimation spells in there though.
You want a good number of sacrifice outlets. I haven't heard of what a hard number should be so I'd shoot for at least 5. Here's a list of some that I remember off hand:
Infernal Tribute <- has a funny synergy with Spine of Ish Sah
Altar of Dementia
Disciple of Griselbrand
Lampad of Death's Vigil
For this strategy you'll need recurring creatures or token generators
Bridge from Below
Open the Graves
Blood Artist is a staple
Plunge into Darkness is something you might want for the pure lifegain of 3 per creature you sacrifice. Not sure that you want to use the "exile a bunch of your deck" too often.
Shadows of the Past
and so forth. I'd look through some already built aristocrats decks to see exactly whether you want to take that strategy.
Oh yeah, for utility lands I'd choose any of the following within your price range:
Geier Reach Sanitarium
2 months ago
1 year ago
Oof. Yeah, I hadn't realized how much that's gone up. Bloody Crucible of Worlds is cheaper these days.
You could replace Sol Ring . /s
Okay, I know that's probably a heretical suggestion, though I prefer focusing on land ramp instead of artifact ramp considering the number of swamp-based boosters/rituals you're running. Sword of Rampant Growth is a consideration - I know you said the deck doesn't want to be attacking often, but I think you have a decent number of bodies that carry the sword well.
Right, possible cuts for Rings . Some of this is more-or-less just me going through a though process. Looking through the cards I started looking at redundancy in functions and some corner cases. So I have a couple curiosities regarding stuff I haven't run in my build:
- With 3 "no max hand size" cards, how often do you have more than 7 cards in hand? Do you deal with enough graveyard removal in your meta that your hand is safer for a card until it's time to use it?
- How often is Temporal Extortion successful in getting an extra turn?
I can see you have a high level of redundancy in important functions, hence the smoothness you mentioned. With as many tutors as you have, I was going to suggest Expedition Map as a possible cut, but having just mentioned land ramp I bet I would have ended up changing it to Wayfarer's Bauble and using another tutor for special lands. I also tend to think that tutors mean you don't need as much redundancy, just backups in case one gets exiled.
Among your redundancies: 3 pacts , 3 Swamp ' boosters ', 3 Swamp ' rituals ', 2 mana ' banks ', 3 'no max hand size'. I'm not saying one of these should be the cut, but it's something I wanted to talk about for a moment because I think it's a space for you to evaluate regarding: how many of each function you need in play at a time in most games and what reasons compel you to tutor for the second or third card of any particular function. I'm not mentioning the tutors because you focus on tutors over draw, so I wasn't going after any of those outside mentioning Expedition Map .
- Example: you might be using only one of a function at a time and the others are backups. In this case, being able to evade removal with a sacrifice outlet (like Claws of Gix or Infernal Tribute for the noncreatures) or Imp's Mischief , and using recursion, could reduce the number of redundancies needed. Maybe taking time to recur is too slow for you meta, I don't know.
- Example: you might be using multiple at a time. In this case you could evaluate how many of any particular function have actually been needed for 80% of games. Let's imagine having one pact in play does an alright job of controlling the board but having two really locks it down - a third wouldn't add any benefit and could be winmore/dead, especially if you can recur the others or dodge removal.
So that's why I can't really just pick out an easy substitution from among those, as I don't know how necessary any area of redundancy is. However, outside of those you could probably go down to 36 lands with the rocks/boosters/rituals you have and replace Path of Ancestry .
1 year ago
Personally I like the idea of Infernal Tribute but I feel like mana curve aside, Thallid Soothsayer will do better in the deck as it creates tokens with your commander on top of being card advantage and a sac outlet.
1 year ago
NoOneOfConsequence I actually did playtest your deck once (I know, it isn't a great sample size by any means), yet many cards are an issue. I apologize, I really want to like a deck you post, just to not make this a dramafest, but I can't say a bad deck is good. Damnation and Wrath don't need to be put into the deck at all.
Here is a full list of cards that are particularly overpriced, and where each card I think is bad or could be better fits, if you truely believe that I can't evaluate it fairly:
Doomwake Giant - Interesting repeatable board wipe, a meta-dependent inclusion though, not good for the average cEDH meta, but does have a place in some lists. I'd drop, but could imagine many arguments for it's inclusion.
Ghostly Prison - anti-attacks, which just rarely comes into play outside of kiki-lines and the sort, a strange meta-dependent inclusion, but I coudl much less justify this one.
Karmic Justice - Cool card, but often enchantment removal comes in the form of bounce or exile, and so this effect feels very off.
Vindicate - 3 mana remove 1 thing is a lot of wasted mana, easy drop.
No Mercy - Really a lot of attack-hate, strange for a stax list with a commander that generates blockers. Easy drop at a 4 mana do nothing enchantment.
Knowledge Pool - I get the Eidolon of Rhetoric / Rule of Law combo with it, but many decks have better value engines than Daxos, or can respond by killing one of the pieces, or can kill Daxos. These make this combo rarely an easy way to finish the game, requiring a ton of setup/backup that survives the lock. I think better options exist.
Sigil of the Empty Throne - A slow, 5 mana do nothing enchantment, it takes forever to get this going, easy drop.
Sphere of Safety - This much creature-attack hate? How much do you need? 1 card is often too much with Daxos in the CZ, but you run... including sweepers... like 11? Wow. Your meta must be all Edric and Blood Pod, maybe 1 Kess Twin, nah, just all Edric decks.
Black Market - maybe in a meta with 50 Edric decks. Outside of that, easy drop.
Land Tax - should run the Geddon/Ravages package or leave this out.
Mesa Enchantress - Slow card draw on a weak creature is just removal bait, this deck has better cards for the slot. Harder drop.
Phyrexian Arena - A lot of math goes into why this card is generally pretty bad. Inefficient and weak in most circumstances, and needs almost 5 unimpeded turns to get enough value to be okay. Better cards for the slot.
Cabal Coffers - big mana, not worth it outside of ANS.
Vesuva - copying a land to enter tapped leaves you in a lack of mana. Weak card.
Command Beacon - easy drop, weak card.
Deserted Temple - Easy drop, weak card.
Strip Mine - Good card, not here.
Temple of Silence - scry is weak when you lose due to not having mana, easy drop
Kor Haven - Easy Drop, never gonna use that ability
Plains x4 - Not great at Fixing
New inclusions (Total drops are at 42)
Base inclusions: Fellwar Stone , Prismatic Lens , Thought Vessel , Everflowing Chalice , Caves of Koilos , Command Tower , City of Brass , Mana Confluence , Exotic Orchard , Cavern of Souls , Gemstone Caverns , Gemstone Mine , and Tarnished Citadel
Total real cards left to put in: 29
Thorn of Amethyst , Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Trinisphere , Tangle Wire , Sphere of Safety , Damping Sphere , Fragmentize , Aura of Silence , Dismember , Lotus Petal , Dark Ritual , Kataki, War's Wage , Crucible of Worlds , Bottomless Pit , Oppression , Liliana of the Veil , Static Orb , Linvala, Keeper of Silence , Ethersworn Canonist , Aven Mindcensor , Torpor Orb , Planar Void , Grafdigger's Cage , Ensnaring Bridge (just for your meta), Dark Confidant , Containment Priest , Chalice of the Void , Sanctum Prelate , Alms Collector
That would be the deck.
1 year ago
Definitely Add Show
Possibly Add Show
- Forge of Heroes
- Preyseizer Dragon
- Hound of Griselbrand
- Ion Storm
- Curse of Stalked Prey
- Cyclonic Rift
- Mark of Mutiny
- Sower of Temptation
- Conquering Manticore
- Dragonlord Silumgar
- Aura Thief
- Puca's Mischief
- Infernal Tribute
- Claws of Gix
- Viscera Seer
- Ogre Slumlord
- Open the Graves
- Pawn of Ulamog
- Sifter of Skulls
- Falkenrath Noble
- Power Conduit
- Palace Familiar
- Surveilling Sprite
- Ogre Battledriver
1 year ago
I mention Sidisi, Undead Vizier in my notable exclusions like you said it's a good fit if you don't have Demonic/Vampiric.
I'm not running Mana Confluence simply because I haven't felt like spending $10 on it. it would definitely be a good call.
For similar reasons as you mentioned I didn't bother with Disciple of Bolas plus, between various other card draw sources I haven't really needed him. Necropotence etc... plus at CMC4 he is competing with a lot of other cards.
Haste isn't super important for me since i've tried to build in a lot of ways to get counters outside of combat, but i think it would fit well if you were running more of a battle cruiser value deck.
Threaten and etc... is a popular way to build marchesa and definitely has a good support structure. I opted to go a different route though and as you can see i went a lot more aristocrats based. a low power big fatties battle cruiser meta will probably find a lot of success with an Act of Treason focused list though.
let me know if you want any feedback on other cards, I've tested or considered cards in most sets that are released.
1 year ago
ZendikariWol "You want to build a good deck. I want to build a good sacrifice deck."
Nah man, I want to build a good sacrifice/theme deck too. We are not as dissimilar as you might think. Here is my current Muldrotha build, give or take a few cards Im still looking for. Gravemind
But the point of replying to the OP, is not to tell them how to build a deck, or if it should have a sacrifice theme or not. Its 'What can you do with $100 and a graveyard theme?' And the fact is, Muldrothas ability parallels Karadors, but also allows multiple other perm types to be recurred as well.
"I think effects like Claws of Gix's are very rare and in a 100 card deck that's unrealiable." "Beyond that, there's the problem of overlap; namely that there is none. A few things sacrifice artifacts or creatures, but nothing sacrifices creatures or lands, nothing sacrifices enchantments or lands."
Ill start with the lands. Generally you dont need/want to sac lands. And a ton of lands just sac themselves to do what they normally do. The fact that you can recurr a Terramorphic Expanse every turn(or Fetchland) is a real thing, never mind all of the other techy self-saccing lands. Muldrotha offers up a huge amount of land based options, at no drawback or deck building requirements. Point being, "mana lands" you probably want to keep, and tech lands usually sac themselves, so having the ability to artificially sac lands is needless.
As far as other perm saccing and crossovers go, I dunno, there is probably 4 or so in colors. Infernal Tribute, theres this wizard who sacs stuff to bounce things to hand, and an enchantment that does the same too I think.
Crossovers, Ertai, the Corrupted jumps to mind, and that black sac artifact/creature guy from kaladesh block. But its pretty slim pickings off the top of my head, you are right.
But the main reason you would run sac outlets for things would be if you wanted them in your grave, in order to recast them and get an ETB effect. Right?** But again, an ETB recursion deck is just one build of Muldrotha, and should not be touted as the only, or best one. Best place obviously taken by stax.
**There are a limited cards that simply are better in the graveyard, but most simply fine with being there. For example: Wonder Vs Gravecrawler. And since we have the best color combo for getting cards from our library into our grave, it should be simple to get them there without even casting them, thus not needing to sacrifice them.
We both build very on-theme decks. There are many ways to build Muldrotha, and ETB, Stax or Self-Sac are just a few. Muldrotha has Karadors ability, plus more options. Options are always good, even if you dont play huge into them(see land example above). They both stay relevant late game due to karadors reduction, and for Mul, Command Beacon.
If you ignore everything but their creature recursion and colors, Muldrotha gets more cards into the grave faster due to blue, giving card advantage. Karador arguably is faster at returning things from his grave to play once they get their, due to the number of white recursion creatures. But this is assuming you can only cast creatures from your grave, nothing else with either of them.