Noctem i'm sorry what is your problem ? if you want to start "troll" please go elsewhere ... no need for any childish behaviour here...

Do you think Inspiring Statuary could function as a rock in Kozilek as well?

Also, just incase you didn't realize, Ashnod's Altar will give you infinite draw in that scenario as well. As would Staff of Domination.

And even with out that you can use SR to copy Koz's draw trigger on the last copy of Paradox Engine's ability, then untap with the original PE trigger and copy Koz's trigger again, netting you infinite mana and 12 cards.

Well Kiyomeii, you sign your post with "Not so kind regards". You talk down to other people in this group. Your general attitude seems pretty poor. All of this is making me wonder what your problem is? Anyway I'll ignore you. GL HF.

Not so kind regard is merely a joke if you take that srs xp

np I'll block the likes of people like you xD no point in a trollerGF x.

Yeah, I bet you're joking now that you've been called out on it :) "it's just a prank bro!".

Anyway Paradox Engine is pretty sick I have to agree. I'm really curious how it will shape the meta if it gets picked up by as many decks as we think here. Anything with dorks, rocks, etc.. covers a pretty wide wedge. Maybe I should buy a few now :p

n0bunga is pirate tribal a thing yet?

called out Xd Kid get a grip please :)

love the new spoiler though Paradox Engine is quite beast if you keep chaining it somehow .

Hmm.. so a grixis commander to make it happen then.

Gonna be testing Engine in Azami and Yisan. Yisan seems spicy especially with the Regal Force draw engine or even elvish Visionary with Sabertooth

@Ohthenoises: Previously my list ran Living Plane. However, I found it to dead in hand far too often. Without Norn/Linvala or a way to immediately get them into play, LP is a dead card, not to mention it has bad synergy with a lot of other cards we play like Gaddock Teeg and Thorn of Amethyst. Even when a way to assemble the combo was available, it often wasn't the best line of play. With Derevi, you'll often find yourself in a situation where one or more player is threatening to combo off in the next turn cycle, forcing you to sandbag with the proper stax pieces rather than trying to immediately assemble your own win conditions. It's an unfortunate side effect of Partial Paris, which made the deck about a turn and a half slower on average. I swapped LP out for Jin-Retainers because at least it's a one-card combo when using Fauna Shaman or Survival of the Fittest. It suffers from a lot of the same problems as LP, namely running a card that's often dead in hand, but the benefits have thus far outweighed the downsides.

@sonnet666: True, there's always going to be some power difference within a Tier. However, in this case Derevi DOES perform on a level consistent with Tier 2. Currently she's roughly equal in power to Captain Sisay. Both are GW stax. Sisay sacrifices blue for a consistent tutor engine in the command zone that enables her wins. In competitive pods they have very similar overall win rates, that being low against top tier decks and moderate against tier 2 decks. Her remaining incorrectly in Tier 1 won't necessarily make or break anything, but it WILL be an obvious error to informed players looking at the tier list. We want the list to reflect the competitive EDH meta as much as possible.

@Noctem: Unfortunately he's serious. Kiyo came here a few months ago and started picking fights over Oona, Mizzix, and a few other commanders that he'd personally built and didn't like the tier placements of. It got bad enough at one point that a mod had to step in to delete comments and issue a few warnings.

@Kiyomeii: The rule exists primarily to keep people from advocating their own commanders be moved up. In the past, we've had issues with people getting extremely abrasive when discussing commanders they play, yourself included. Once a person demonstrates the ability to converse civilly and without much bias, they can largely ignore the rule.

NarejEDSince there a lot of tier 3 commanders are we going to vote/assign different decks for each commander? OR how will this process work.

NarejED well that explains it then, including the obvious animosity in his/her posts.

I find your point of view on Derevi interesting. Basically it sounds like the issue with having combo pieces like Living Plane in your deck is a double edged sword simply because of what you're attempting to do with your deck. Basically, you screw up everyone else trying to combo but simultaneously include yourself in the process. What about something like Beastmaster Ascension? In a creature heavy deck like ours, wouldn't it be easy to get the 7 quest counters immediately after playing it for surprise kills or to end the game? I saw it in the Edric list.

Ohthenoises I've already done a lot of rigorous testing with Paradox Engine in Azami, believe me, it's very worth it. It's not a replacement to Mind Over Matter, but if you have a way of getting engine from your library to battlefield, such as Whir of Invention or Transmute Artifact it's definitely a great card if you've got the rocks to back it up.

@ZomBee_Hunt: We'll add suitably optimized decklists for tier 3 commanders to the description as we find them. The best way to contribute in that regard is to find (or make) decks you believe to be viable candidates and link them here for review. The process is going to take quite a while due both to the size of tier 3 and the lack of competitive interest in them. It's likely that because of those factors, decks for tier 3 commanders will be held to a much lower standard.

@Noctem: Beastmaster Ascension is an alright option in Derevi. Elesh Norn fills its function better though.

I'm actually most excited to try it in Yisan.

Idk if I'd say that LP is completely dead, it prevents people from wrathing lest they Armageddon themselves

NarejED I would like to submit my Zedruu the Greathearted deck for consideration for that tier 3 spot. Zedr(YOU), Zed(WHAT). My meta is pretty competitive decks. There is a General Tazri going around, There is sidisi/ad nauseum combo, couple Jeleva storm decks. then also some random teir 2/3 generals

My build has been able to shut them down or at least keep up where its a grindy match up and not a quick one at all.

The deck is not quite complete just because LGS dont have the cards in stock and im too lazy to look online.

I also feel like Zedruu is an intersting deck in teh fact that I could not just hand the deck to someone and have them no what to do. I am always having people watch me and saying "How does zedruu win." and then I win and they didnt expect it.

NarejED and if it does get picked I can write up a better description then what is there now. :D

It's been my experience that the best way to play Zedruu is in a stax shell. She has decent synergy with cards like Sphere of Resistance and Stony Silence, because such cards effect the board equally regardless of who controls them. It looks like you're running a few like Arcane Laboratory, but there's definitely a lot missing.

The lists picked seem to have no price limits in mind, so that's at least one way to improve the deck.

I think Kari Zev is terrible. It's so bad, I think we should bring back Tier 6 just to put her in it. I am shocked and honestly offended that WotC would print a card this bad.

Also, I think we should move up Higure, the Still Wind and Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni.

She's good outside of commander to be fair. A 3/3 that has to be blocked by 3 creatures is pretty good and the fact that she triggers Revolt is huge.

She also synergizes pretty well with Purphoros decks in that she ensures you are constantly getting a dude in play and her menace makes it easier to keep her alive.

As someone said before: not as good as something like goblin rabblemaster but still pretty decent.

What are people's opinions on Engine in Yisan? I feel like by the time you'll want to cast it to gain insane value, you'll be getting Seedborn Muse anyway.

Any point in testing Heroic Intervention in the deck?

What are people's opinions on Engine in Yisan? I feel like by the time you'll want to cast it to gain insane value, you'll be getting Seedborn Muse anyway.

Any point in testing Heroic Intervention in the deck?

NarejED I do agree with the more staxish cards like Sphere of Resistance and Stony Silence prob def going to pick them up. I posted this deck as it is right now and not what the finish project is going to look like. If need be, I can change the deck to the finished product thought then it wouldn't be a deck I own.

But as far as you say it is missing a lot, I do not believe that is as true.

While I don't have the aforementioned cards, I do have cards like Mana Maze and In the Eye of Chaos. I have in the mail cards like Stranglehold which can hose a lot of decks. in the mid to late game, I have Dovescape and at that point there goes every combo deck.

WHile I do have the stax element, I also have the control element and card advantage in Consecrated Sphinx, Cyclonic Rift, Mana Drain, Cryptic Command the various tutors I have to assemble any piece I need in that moment. the various artifacts that help me control what I am going to draw. Sensei's Divining Top Scroll Rack

I am thinking even a Rest in Peace as a lot of decks have some sort o recursion out of the graveyard.

Also building a deck on paper is a lot different then play testing. I have tested some cards and traded them out for others because they were just dead draws and I would have liked something in that place.

I may be biased and I can see that, but I am trying to write an unbiased view.

I do think it is missing some cards but not many. Compared to a lot of zedruu decks though it is the most competitive I have seen and also has been play tested against some of the top tier generals.

lets continue the debate :D

See above for my view on kari. Can we agree that the monkey token itself is T0?

back to tier list discussion, as far as decks go, deck construction might have to be divided since the partner combos added a large chunk to the tier list. I swear one day ill have the patience to make cuts to azusa but for now, too many things happening for AER preparations. as of right now, i think we should accept any decent t3 commander to link until a better one can be found. Yes this contradicts the notes in the description, but it would give people a place to start for optimizing.

Thoughts are welcome while I try to think of a different route for baral than high tide. ill take any flak for trying the non high tide but there may be something there.

Happy late new year everyone (whats left of my conscience needs that said)