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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Crucible of Fire
Dragon creatures you control get +3/+3.
2 months ago
Hey, on a budget really well done for your first Dragon tribal deck. On low budget you have good card sense and deck building skills.
There's many excellent Dragons here, but some stand out as subpar, not needed.
- Fellwar Stone --> Scaled Nurturer
- Fierce Empath --> Skanos Dragonheart
- Eternal Witness --> Earthquake Dragon
- Dryad's Revival --> Sapphire Dragon
Scaled Nurturer is lackluster ramp because only green mana and the mana can only be used to cast a Dragon. Can do much better for two drop ramp. Fierce Empath is another budget creature tutor to get a Dragon.
There's one area of deck building that you've left out, recursion and green is the best color for it because it's recursion of any card such as Eternal Witness. In multiplayer Commander your stuff is going to be destroyed a lot having some card recursion can help to get back certain cards that are important to gameplay such as Temur Ascendancy. Witness and Empath can be blinked to be repeatable.
Sarkhan the Masterless is less impactful here for five mana then if you're playing more Planeswalkers or a Commander Planeswalker. Bower Passage can help Dragons to wreck your opponents. For two mana it makes them essentially unblockable. It can stop annoying little Spirits from being blockers against Dragons.
Court of Bounty can be repeatable draw with the monarch and then repeatable cheat Dragon or cheat land from your hand. Dragons don't really need +3/+3 from Crucible of Fire for four mana since they're already high power/toughness and flying makes them good attackers.
- Yavimaya Coast --> Thornwood Falls
- Shivan Reef --> 1x Mountain
- Karplusan Forest --> 1x Mountain
- Mosswort Bridge --> 1x Forest
- Game Trail --> 1x Mountain
- Vineglimmer Snarl --> 1x Mountain
12x basic Mountains is a lot compared to the other numbers of basic lands. Replacing some basic Mountains with more dual lands could improve color fixing from lands to help gameplay. Yavimaya Coast, Shivan Reef, Karplusan Forest Pain lands have just been reprinted in newest set Dominaria United, get them while they're $2 or less each.
Good luck with your deck.
3 months ago
One way to get your Dragons into play for free is Lurking Predators.
I hope this is helpful!
5 months ago
Reaperfire For sure! You could cut some of the more odd cards for better interactions and protection but this deck is a bit more casual than my other ones so I just jam the fun cards and don't care a ton about have the correct amount of interaction.
Ebegeezer Usually I'm looking for hands with 3-4 lands, a threat or two, ramp and a card draw engine to refill. The biggest thing with the deck is dumping everything to ramp into the dragons and then casting one, it dying and then having no action. So if you can get the engines to start drawings that would be key.
Niemandswasser Yes I have! It has provided a great way of providing fuel for the big recursion engines and value if you're dragons die to draw more cards. The deck has been moving in a way that the dragons have less power so you're not able to draw as many cards. Might have to include a Crucible of Fire in the future since they're getting lower with each set but I like it a lot if you're doing graveyard interactions!
HerbivoreDragon Yes I think if I were to get another wipe in the deck, I'd add Blasphemous Act for that potential interaction. I've played Twilight's Call in other decks before. I think the ones I have included are better versions of it and there might be a few others out there I'm not thing of but if you're wanting to play more of that effect, I don't see a problem with it. Just don't overload on them.
tinqle I was only including in the update the Elders and one's I wanted to put in the deck if I had space. Firkraag in the exclusion tab further down in the page of the deck description and a small explanation on why. Basically, Firkraag is better as the head of a Goad deck rather than a Goading creature in a dragon deck. With it, I'd rather be goading a lot of creatures than just one per turn.
5 months ago
So I added the needs help because I am trying to make a plan for the next round of upgrades. I don't really know what I should focus on next. The manabase is pretty solid, although I wouldn't mind picking up a Mana Confluence and Forbidden Orchard when they are reprinted. I have been thinking about putting in a Scaled Nurturer but don't know what to take out. When I first built this there were 40 lands and the curve was quite a bit higher. Over the past 5 years, whenever I made swaps, I always made sure it was for something at the same CMC or lower, so it has gotten leaner and maybe I could replace a land for the Scaled Nurturer.
Cards that I'm not 100% about:
Sarkhan's Triumph: So tutors are great, and this has been good, but I don't run any 'I win' combos and ever since I've gotten the overall density and card quality to be pretty high, it's almost been a wash as to whether or not this is just another random dragon in the deck where I don't need to invest an extra 3 mana.
Crucible of Fire: This is solid IF there are 3+ dragons on the board. I don't have any of the dragons that make tiny dragon tokens (1/1s, 2/2s), so this is not that amazing unless I'm already winning or if it sticks around after a board wipe making anything I play more threatening. I've been thinking about putting in the unbreakable formation that I have instead, just because that also can give a small +1/+1 boost or can save my entire board from most wipes.
Whip of Erebos: This can be great, but it can also be a dud. The lifelink has won games for me. The graveyard recursion has also won games for me. But this has often done nothing. If I could find a card that is the same CMC or less that has the same type of upsides with less downside risk, I'd be happy to replace it.
Rishkar's Expertise: So this one also has a lot of variance. Sometimes it's insanely good, other times I feel like I could be doing WAY more with 6 mana. Like sometimes it's a draw 10+ and play a 5 CMC card, other times it's a draw 4 play a 2 CMC card. Basically I'd give up a little bit of power for something with a considerably higher floor.
6 months ago
Hey Eldmoi, thanks for the info. There's a quite a bit I would recommend optimizing. The long story short is that most of the dragons I'd recommend are already on my budget primer that you've seen and my super budget deck list that was part of the primer but is also available here if you're interested here.
First of all, you need to make sure your deck has a decent amount of ramp to cast your awesome dragons within a reasonable amount of time. If you are on a budget then I'd recommend Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, and Sakura-Tribe Elder at the very least. Other options for cheap ramp are Farseek, Wild Growth, and Fertile Ground. If you want to further optimize ramp, then adding in Nature's Lore and Three Visits on top of some forest based shock lands (e.g. Stomping Ground or triomes (e.g. Ziatora's Proving Ground would be ideal.
Second, you want to optimize your mana base by minimizing the number of taplands and ensuring you have the colors you need. Any tap lands that tap for only 2 colors (e.g. guild gates) could safely be dropped for basic lands. Tri-lands like you mentioned are decent enough to start off, because they can tap for 3 colors, but even those are suboptimal in the face of options like Dragonskull Summit and Blood Crypt. Furthermore, almost 50% of your deck requires red mana, so I'd ensure your lands reflects that.
Some things off the top of my head for instants and sorceries: I would consider Crucible of Fire to be a win more card. Lozhan, Dragons' Legacy is almost a strictly better Sarkhan's Unsealing. Damn and Farewell are really good board wipes that aren't as mana intensive as some you're running. Garruk's Uprising is a very potent form of card draw. Monster Manual is probably better than Thran Temporal Gateway in most cases.
Finally the dragons. There are so many good dragons to consider, many of which I've mentioned in my deck primer, and many of which are available on most dragon lists online, that I'll focus on highlighting dragons I would recommend removing:
Acid-Spewer Dragon - Overcosted and doesn't do much. Deathtouch isn't as useful on a dragon that should be big enough to kill most thing it hits in the first place.
Backdraft Hellkite - Most instant and sorceries you have are too expensive or are simply aren't as immediately useful (e.g. don't want to board wipe your own dragons). The most useful ones you run are removal, but at that point you can just play dragons that can inherently remove things like Steel Hellkite.
Crosis, the Purger - Hard to save mana to take advantage of its effect. It'll feel bad to take advantage of its effect in casual metas anyways. If you really want to run a dragon like this then Teneb, the Harvester might be more fitting but even then I wouldn't really recommend it, because of the mana investment needed to make it work.
Dragonmaster Outcast - Not a good early game play and easy to kill later on.
Kargan Dragonlord - Costs too much to do too little. We have so many dragon options, even in budget decks, that vanilla dragons simply aren't worth it.
Malfegor - Discarding our hand isn't good to do unless it involves redrawing more cards (e.g. Knollspine Dragon).
Necromaster Dragon - Summoning vanilla 2/2 zombie tokens for 2 mana isn't good value in a dragon deck, and you have to go through combat to get it off. In a world where Ancient Gold Dragon exists, it's hard to justify an effect like this. Dragon Broodmother and Lathliss, Dragon Queen and Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm would be far more effective token generators.
There's always more we could do to optimize any deck, including mine for sure, so I'd be happy to comment more later if you'd like. But I also want to emphasize that as long as you and your playgroup are having fun, you really can't go wrong :)
8 months ago
So I have rambled on and on about my thoughts on all of the different aspects of this deck. In advance, I would like to thank anyone who has taken the time out of their day to read all of these and leave their own thoughts, as that is part of what makes this community great. There aren't many more themes to talk about in the deck. Now, onto win cons. So my main win conditions in the deck are damage from triggers and beating the opponent down with hoards of big dragons (with a third backup wincon with Hellkite Tyrant and Hellkite Igniter).
For damage from triggers I have Where Ancients Tread, Warstorm Surge, Dragon Tempest, Terror of the Peaks, Scourge of Valkas and Panharmonicon. They work great with Lathliss, Dragon Queen due to the tokens she generates when another dragon is played, all activating those damage triggers which can be used to control the board and directly target the opponent's HP pools. Archwing Dragon is a reliable way for the Damage triggers to activate each turn. Summons from Utvara Hellkite, Skyline Despot and Dragonmaster Outcast act as backup token generators for the damage triggers in case our lathliss isn't in play. Demanding Dragon is potentially a free 5 damage to the opponent's face. Drakuseth, Maw of Flames his damage trigger is repeatable every time you attack.
Supporting cards for the first win condition: I do not have any of these three cards in my decklist, as I can't figure out what I want to replace to get them in, but the dream is there. Conjurer's Closet allows you to make a dragon leave and re-enter the field at the end of the turn, triggering all of our ETB effects above. Mirage Mirror allows you to copy one of our pieces above, and you can choose the most beneficial one. It would be nice having two Dragon Tempest in play, especially say if you have 6 dragons on the field, have Mirage Mirror end of turn triggering them and getting free 12 damage to any target you want. If you could fit in a Fiery Emancipation that 12 turns into 36!
The secondary win condition "beat down", with "big" "dragon hoards", is also supported by Lathliss, Dragon Queen due to the big 5/5 token dragons she pumps out. The "dragon hoard" part is also supported by cards such as Utvara Hellkite, Skyline Despot, Dragonmaster Outcast as they all generate plenty of dragons. Now the "big" part comes from my anthems that buff my dragons Crucible of Fire, Gauntlet of Power, The Immortal Sun, and Vanquisher's Banner, as well as several dragons that are all pumpable to make them and/or their fellow dragons hit harder. Moonveil Dragon, Scourge of Valkas, Moltensteel Dragon and lastly Lathliss, Dragon Queen. Now, the fun part of my secondary win condition, "beat down" comes into play. Dragons such as Scourge of the Throne and Hellkite Charger allow you to take an extra combat turn, allowing you to really bash in your opponent's face with your big dragon hoard :)
Supporting cards for the secondary win condition: Terror of Mount Velus gives all of your dragon's double strike. Thundermaw Hellkite allows you to tap your opponent's fliers, allowing your dragons through. Drakuseth, Maw of Flames allows you to potentially shoot down any small fliers blocking your path. Cards I would like to put in: Fervor, Anger and Akroma's Memorial would allow any dragons that enter the field to have haste (with akroma adding a slew of goodies and protection). Door of Destinies could allow you to grow your dragons even more. Gratuitous Violence and Fiery Emancipation would allow you to double and triple your damage. Rage Reflection granting double strike would be nice. I would prioritize Fervor, Anger and Akroma's Memorial, as haste is such a beautiful thing, as it helps make up for lost time due to how expensive your dragons can be. I am not sure what I need to remove to fit them into the deck.
Lastly, Hellkite Tyrant is a pretty nifty dragon, acting as a potential win condition on its own. My deck has plenty of artifacts as is, and I typically play against 2-3 (sometimes even more) opponents in a game. Reaching the 20 artifacts owned is doable, the hard part would be keeping it, the artifacts, and yourself alive until it is once more your turn (Suddenly that wall of text I wrote on protection is looking a lot more appealing). Another fun synergy with that is Hellkite Igniter, if that can sneak on by you can pump its damage insanely high due to all of the artifacts! Need to see about getting some haste in the deck to help it connect...
Thanks all for reading!
8 months ago
Hi, I mean this in the most constructive way:
i think that I know of some lands that may help you ramp in case you want to:
These can serve as ramp in a pinch (except for sandstone, which dies in 2 usages).
Do you really need Crucible of Fire? It seems that dragons are already powerful on their own and that these slots could be used for something else.
There is also a land that I think may help you more, which is Ghitu Encampment. The first strike 2/1 can be more versatile. The utility lands you chose seem to be more dedicated to offense, but that's not always going to be the case.
Tears of Valakut can also only target flying threats... wouldnt it be better to have something that kills a wider range of creatures? Like Dead / Gone, maybe? Or Fire Prophecy, which may allow you to "cycle" an unwanted card.
There are too many Dragon-related cards to choose from @[email protected]
also, maybe try cutting the deck down to 60, it'll make it more consistent (22 lands for 70 cards isn't enough)...
If you could manage to use only odd-cost cards, could even use Obosh, the Preypiercer as a companion
8 months ago
As much as I love the flavor of hoard, it is generally slow and unreliable card draw, and any artifact-based ramp that costs three mana or more is too much these days, so it's never been great there. Ceta Sanctuary is such a perfect draw spell for this deck. With Scion out it will always draw two cards every turn and discard any one card from our hand, which allows us to filter any dragons we draw into the graveyard where we can get them out more efficiently. Kudos to kookoo for this fabulous suggestion!
Scourge was always good mostly as a Fireball when you could mass reanimate it, and pretty bad in most other situations. If it is on the board and one dragon enters, that's at best doming something for two. In contrast, if Lathliss is out and a dragon enters we get a 5/5 dragon token. What's more to the point, if we mass reanimate Lathliss we'll get tokens for every other dragon, and if we have a haste enabler all of those tokens will be able to attack that turn.
Reckoner has always been great, so I'm not sure why I took it out of the original deck. Knowing they'll get reciprocity for removal is always a good incentive for your opponents to leave you alone and try to politic instead. Vorosh was great if you could get the counters, have Scion stick around, and then use him with Skittles the next turn, but this was kind of a slow process with a lot of investment, which can be easily disrupted. Putting six counters on Scion has a way of putting more of a target on him due to the possibility of commander damage alone, so I think reckoner is a better card.
Ojutai is a great disruptor and has salvaged a few iffy games for me in the past by freezing down my opponents, but it is in very particular situations that he helps us and in others it's not as good. Gnawbone gets us lots of treasure, and is a great first target for Scion, and can also hoard us resources on the board later in the game. Its just an all-star card that's good in every situation, and I had to put it in.
Kairi just has so much utility that she's hard to pass up. She is a third protection target for Scion, which we definitely need, and can also provide great utility on board-wipes. Crucible is good and always better than you expect it to be, but it is the weakest link at this point.
Horn is a great card, but not in this deck. It is best in tribal decks with cheap creatures where you can cast multiple spells a turn at a discount, and draw a card on one and three turns. I'll probably put it in my Trynn, Champion of Freedom and Silvar, Devourer of the Free deck where it will rock the house. Here it only draws a card one in four turns, and we would rather draw other cards than our dragons. As a ramp piece it doesn't help us cast Scion, hard-casting our dragons isn't a focus, and its not likely we'll be casting more than one. Good old Elder gets us a land for two mana, which is where we really need to be on ramp in this deck.
I've had Sylvia since Battlebond when I pull her from a pack and have always intended to put her in. Three mana to give all our dragons double-strike is a nasty surprise, and cheap enough that we can still activate Scion that turn. The low-end is probably when only Scion is out, but we play her and make Scion into a big dragon for a voltron kill. The high end is we play her when a bunch of dragons are on the board, or put her and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight on the board with Tooth and Nail, and relish our opponents' tears! Maelstrom Archangel is best if we can cast her when a haste enabler is out and immediately put a permanent on the battlefield. She is expensive to cast and a big removal target, and there will be plenty of times we don't have anything good to put on the board with her. I wish she was legendary and could be an angels tribal commander, but Sylvia will be better here.