Mind Games
General forum
Posted on Oct. 1, 2015, 8:30 p.m. by -Logician
Let's talk about deep mind games you've partaken in or had to play against.
Some of my favorite mind games that I used to do were back in RTR+THS block playing the all-powerful U/W Control deck with basically just AEtherling, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Sphinx's Revelation, Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Dissolve etc.
One huge part of the deck was that you could easily fake your opponent out by tapping down the requisite mana for something like Detention Sphere at the right time, even pulling a random card from your out of your hand and gesture it towards the table. Your opponent knows exactly what's coming. They've played the format long enough to know that a main-phase sorcery-speed spell for 3 mana is almost always Detention Sphere (maybe sometimes a Brimaz, King of Oreskos, but not nearly as often). Just before revealing the card I've waved in front of the field after tapping three mana, I'd pull back and squint as though I have second thoughts. In actuality, the card I just waved in front of the table was a land. Especially if they have something like Loxodon Smiter in play and I had previously used Thoughtseize so I know their hand. If they had another Loxodon Smither in their hand and that was known information, I essentially just suggested that I had a Detention Sphere. If they're perceptive, they'll be completely convinced that I have one, and they won't commit another smiter to the board.
Another one I loved to do is when my opponent had 2 small creatures in play that could be haulted effectively by Jace, Architect of Thought. Using the same trick, I'd fake out a four-drop, then pull it back without revealing it, then play a Jace, Architect of Thought. Essentially, I just suggested to my opponent that I've opted out of playing Supreme Verdict and played Jace, Architect of Thought instead. Now they're convinced that I have a verdict in my hand when I don't, and they'll play around it.
I've seen a guy in a pro tour playing modern drop a turn 1 untapped Hallowed Fountain on the draw, shocking himself. He couldn't cast anything in his hand, but his opponent played around Spell Snare the entire game. It was hilarious, and won him the game.
What kind of mind games have you guys used?
RoarMaster says... #3
So you tapped 3 land for a 'fake' detention sphere, then spent that mana on nothing, wasting 3 mana. Id say you just mind gamed yourself into losing tempo/mana advantage.
October 1, 2015 8:38 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #4
most of the mind games I do when playing with my group (of friends, mind you) are as follows:
keep saying "go on! play it! YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!!!" with some open mana
ask them to go through their turn slowly tell me when its ____ phase, or whatever
when I draw a card and need a bluff I'll look at it for a few seconds, look around the board, read a few of the cards that are out, then pass the turn without doing anything
simply say "cards in hand?" or "open mana" or things like that
put cards from my hand face down near lands that are spread out in different areas with ranging amounts of available mana, to make it seem like I'm planning something out
that is all
October 1, 2015 8:39 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
No, he tapped and untapped the lands to pump fake D Sphere.
October 1, 2015 8:50 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #6
GlistenerAgent thats an illegal play as far as I know.
October 1, 2015 8:56 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
It's not. Haven't you ever tapped some mana, decided against playing your card and untapped them again?
October 1, 2015 8:58 p.m.
If I get in a certain mood, I toss aside the desire to win and instead aspire to be officially asked permission to play spells.
Asking to wait-hold-on while reading cards intensely and saying hmmm ... arranging and counting out Mana very neatly, and occasionally smirking and giggling all might happen. In the whole mind game dynamic, I spend more energy sometimes on guessing out my opponent than faking them out.
That mood doesn't strike me very often. I try to reign it in and only indulge when an opponent starts to think themselves superior or unbeatable.
In multiplayer it would probably require a book to describe all the mind games. The chapters would include reading and cracking allegiances, triggering rivalries, careful timing, directing aggression, and making yourself invisible.
October 1, 2015 9:01 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #9
@GlistenerAgent and RoarMaster while it is technically against most tournaments rules, almost everyone will allow you a takeback or 2 as long as you hadn't already done something with the card that would have consequences.
October 1, 2015 9:02 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #10
I don't think you understand. He stands the card vertically on the table as if considering playing it, taps three lands. Opponent now thinks he's got a Sphere. Then, he untaps the lands and puts the card back in his hand. That card might have been a land.
October 1, 2015 9:05 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #11
I play a lot mind games. Sometimes I will purposely slow play people into a win just to get them to tilt, (this works especially well in the top tables where the real hardcore spikes are) such as they are at three life after I attack, I pass the turn, let them do their thing, and cast a Lightning Bolt on their end step. Its dick-ish. But it works. Its a "do only once in a while thing".
Things that I DO often. Lets see, where do I begin? (I learned these from an Army Interrogator getting his Phd in Psychology)
Say you are my opponent, and we sit down. I will pile shuffle. As I am doing so, I will begin asking random questions about you. Whats your name, bro? Where you from? How did your last match go? I will even ask things like "is that your real hair color?". All while shuffling and watching your eyes, hands, feet and general posture.
Now the match begins and I have a baseline of your body language when you are being honest. Now I can effectively read your body language to tell if you are really holding up a counterspell, if your snap keep after a mulligan is really good or just "meh", if what I even played is something that they can answer. Its entertaining and easy. It takes only 3 minutes to get a decent baseline.
During matches I will test the waters and name cards that I know they are worried about. I will move my lands to SPECIFICALLY show that I have an Abrupt Decay. When I look at your hand, I will read every damn card and look at my hand and nod (even if I have no answers) just to force you to think about what I could have.
Sometimes I will play like I am worried and "fake tilt" just to force an alpha strike from my opponent, only to play that sweet trump card that they were hoping I wouldn't have.
I also whistle constantly when I play. I whistle the tune from Kill Bill. Its recognizable, and is repetitive. Here's the fun part: Sometimes, when I draw, I will purposely stop whistling. I cannot tell you how much it freaks people out. Lol.
I won't give away all of my secrets, like what exact non verbal cues I use to tell if one is scared or lying or honest, etc. But I will say, unless you have even read up on these in the slightest, you gain a HUGE advantage over literally ANY opponent. Young, old, pro or even some random dude. I do it often and I do it very well.
There is also a book on Amazon that teaches a really good foundation of how to do this. Its written by an FBI interrogator. Send me a message if your interested.
October 1, 2015 9:05 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
For the record, I stay clear of mind games. I'm going to beat you with my cards.
October 1, 2015 9:08 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #13
To add to what I wrote, since I started doing these things about 8 months ago, my win rate has gone crazy. I have not gotten less than top 4 in constructed events locally.
So listen for the kill bill whistle, and you might know its me.
October 1, 2015 9:09 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #14
@GlistenerAgent okay, I know what you're talking about. please dont refer to that as "tapping" because it clearly is not.
October 1, 2015 9:10 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #15
GlistenerAgent don't get me wrong, bro. I did pretty damn well with my cards before I started "Mind Sculpting" people. Now its just an over the top advantage. I don't cheat, I watch what they are telling me.
October 1, 2015 9:12 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #16
But you literally turn the cards sideways and then unturn them. You can tap lands for mana and then untap them; that's totally legal.
October 1, 2015 9:12 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
gnarlicide Oh, certainly, and I don't fault you for doing it. I'm just saying that it feels dirty to me and I'd prefer to win this card game by playing it rather than relying even a little on outside of game factors.
October 1, 2015 9:15 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #18
@GlistenerAgent like I have said. It IS NOT legal, but it is simply one of those little rulings that no one gives a shit about. you may say "oh, you're just turning them in different ways!" but in the game that is 100% of the time seen as using the cards for their ONE USE.
October 1, 2015 9:16 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #19
GlistenerAgent, I understand where you are coming from. I play in a lot of modern IQ's and SuperIQ's lately. Some people do some borderline cheaty things at those events. This is my way of combating them and coming on top.
I see it as a game of the mind, why not use more of it?
October 1, 2015 9:23 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #20
If only mind games worked well on the internet... :( But when in person, the psychology is very fun to deal with while playing.
October 1, 2015 9:23 p.m.
I don't think this stuff is "outside the game". Remember, people win, not decks.
October 1, 2015 9:24 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #22
Hey, Derp, have you ever played on MTGO? Because it has the entire rule book installed into it and you can't do anything against the rules there. And it's legal to tap and then untap your lands if you decide not to cast a spell there. What isn't legal is tapping to play a spell, playing that spell, and then taking it back or tapping different lands to actually play it. It is completely legal to start paying a cost, decide against it, and then return the board state to the point you were at before paying that cost.
October 1, 2015 9:25 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #23
Not gonna lie, I will say that its much MUCH more difficult mind game people on MTGO. lol.
October 1, 2015 9:26 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #25
@ItchiUchiha117 FUCK MY LIFE.
I'm going to go murder a few spikes at my LGS if no one here minds.
those motherfuckers are gunna get a Donated Lich's Mirror!
October 1, 2015 9:32 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #26
you got "got", man. that sucks homie.
No witnesses, bruh.
October 1, 2015 9:37 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #27
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why it pays to go through the Comprehensive Rulebook from time to time. It's alright, man, just gotta get some more experience.
October 1, 2015 9:39 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #28
Its a good read when You are taking a shit. true story.
October 1, 2015 9:40 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #29
I've had the thought many times that I should just take read it all the way through and start taking the tests just to see how much I can memorize. Not even actually judge events, just have all that knowledge and never tell anyone how or why I know so much about it.
October 1, 2015 9:46 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #30
the thing that im most upset about isn't that they lied to me. its more that I knew the rules and believed them.
imma go back to never playing in tournaments or any event with actual consequences if that okay.
October 1, 2015 9:48 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #31
GlistenerAgent There are no 'take-backs' in magic. You cannot just undo something. Hence untapping your lands after tapping them is illegal.
October 1, 2015 9:56 p.m.
If I announce, "I tap these three lands for (insert color/color combination here) mana." That's an official activation of mana abilities, which resolves immediately. That can't be taken back.
Without such an announcement, simply turning your lands 90 degrees momentarily without saying anything and then turning them back implies nothing. Nothing was announced, nothing can be concluded.
The following is reason to believe that you're past the point of announcement when casting a spell, which is the first step to casting a spell and demonstrates a point of no return.
- Declaring a target, even just using your card to physically poke one of your opponent's cards. That's a physical gesture demonstrating a target.
- Letting go of the card, leaving it on the table (which is announcement).
- Demonstrating the passing of priority, even via gesture.
As long as there's no evidence that you're past the point of announcement, nothing is set in stone. That's essentially what I was exploiting, because I wasn't even revealing the card.
October 1, 2015 9:56 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #33
@RoarMaster Read other posts, or play some MTGO or XMage.
October 1, 2015 10:06 p.m.
I'm just gonna grab a note pad. Ignore me everyone, carry on.
October 1, 2015 10:06 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #36
everyone, flee! flee like cockroaches into the harsh light of day, for we have proof of being studied! he shall soon exploit our information and chacteristics for his own gain!
FLEE!!!!!
October 1, 2015 10:17 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #37
lol, it takes time to learn my jedi ways. And I never actually gave everything away.
October 1, 2015 10:28 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #38
Quick tip MTGbrewer: don't say you're there, just take notes. Makes them much less suspecting when you pull the trick on them :)
October 1, 2015 10:33 p.m.
Why thank you good sir. It's better to see their reactions when they realize that their own tricks have defeated them though :)
October 1, 2015 10:35 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #40
GlistenerAgent Im assuming MTGO has that feature for misclicks. Never heard of XMage, so I assume it is not a sanctioned wizards product. And Im not sure where you are playing where they allow such misplays, but it sounds like the kiddie pool of magic. Maybe my playgroup is just more hard core than you guys. After all, you never see a poker player push their pile in and then pull it back, once you move your chips into the pot theres no taking it back. But there are many levels of magic people play, from hyper competitive to kitchen table. Does not seem legit to me though.
October 1, 2015 10:42 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #41
It's not for misclicks. You can tap a land, then cancel it. It's written into the software.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't act condescending. Most of the posters on this thread are competitive players.
October 1, 2015 10:50 p.m.
It's okay GlistenerAgent. Let him keep insulting himself.
October 1, 2015 10:56 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #43
@-Logician GlistenerAgent RoarMaster I smell an argument brewing. Don't let that happen.
October 1, 2015 10:58 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #44
Yeah, what Derp said. Each playgroup has slightly different rules, this argument is pretty pointless.
October 1, 2015 11:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #45
I'm just going to point out that relying on MTGO as rules backup is a poor move as far as your credibility is concerned. The game is known to have bugs and inaccuracies when it comes to handling the rules. If something is actually legal, then you can explain it satisfactorily using the rules themselves.
With that said, Magic does not have a touch rule (like the one used in chess, for example). If you are not announcing a spell, then you are allowed to tap and untap lands as you think about your play.
Note, however, that if your action has some other consequence (such as a triggered ability or an additional effect), then you have to commit to the activation because you have now involved other factors.
To the rules lawyers: While activating a mana ability is, in a literal sense, not an illegal action and therefore not something you should be able to undo, the DCI does not acknowledge committal to mana abilities as a feasibly or productively enforceable rule, even at the professional level. Watch some streams of the Pro Tour or Grand Prix and you're sure to see players tapping and untapping lands to think about plays (or even just to bluff).
October 2, 2015 12:37 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #46
"I'm MLG as FUCK, there's no way i'm wrong here"
-People who say you can't turn your lands sideways to plan your turn then decide against the way you tapped.
Mind games that I like to play: I'm a big fan of playing the idiot. I'll call out some random play in a game a lot of the time to make the opponent think that i'm brand new to competitive play and I just finished reading the primer on my deck before our round. The opponent has two blue up on turn three and i'm trying to cast something? "Remand me bro!" Sometimes I just get them by telling them what to do even when it isn't the right play. "Don't Bolt it, don't bolt it..." They bolt it 'Aha!' I think to myself 'Now i'm clear to play this guy!'
Sometimes it works, sometimes I just make myself look like an idiot. Makes the game more fun for me at least.
October 2, 2015 12:41 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #47
I've typically found land grouping to be an effective way of implanting doubt or suspicion in an opponent's mind. People tend to be wary when they see two blue sources, or a blue and something else, set aside.
You can tailor the subtlety of the grouping according to the perceptiveness of your opponent. For example, a new player might be scared if you set your double Islands apart from the rest of your lands, but a Pro Tour champ might read that as an obvious bluff or mind game tactic and work to assess what he or she actually knows about your position.
October 2, 2015 1:02 a.m.
Playing against hand attack decks, a good tech is revealing the cards, waiting a few seconds and then lifting the "correct" card and moving it towards the graveyard for your opponent.
example: opponent casts Inquisition of Kozilek, you reveal this hand:
Mox Opal
Steel Overseer
Arcbound Ravager
Darksteel CitadelOrnithopter
Springleaf Drum
Memnite
As an 8rack player, I can tell you the correct card to take is Mox Opal here. If you show it, then pick up the Arcbound Ravager and put it towards the 'yard, you can usually make your opponent pick that. ain't nothing like a turn one ravager or overseer.
October 2, 2015 1:21 a.m.
gnarlicide says... #49
lol, at GoofyFoot. Some guy tried that on me in a PPTQ in South Carolina. I turn 1 Inquisition him and he lays out his ridiculously fast infect hand and he starts to pull a card away. I was all like, "whoa, dude, let me pick it." He got all pissy after that.
You don't happen to play in the south do you?
October 2, 2015 8:36 a.m.
Yeah, GoofyFoot, I'm pretty sure that will backfire just as much as it works.
Like, I'm the type of person who would not choose the card you suggested, just because you're the one suggesting it. And I would do the opposite the next time around, just to keep you on your toes.
DarkAurora7 says... #2
At my LGS, I was rather infamous for having Gods Willing to ruin my opponent's plan. Often, leaving up a single Plains was enough to make people wait on their removal spell.
October 1, 2015 8:37 p.m.