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Fair enough. Do you think there's any merit to playing both protean hulk and boonweaver, to play around Extract and the like?
May 9, 2017 5:49 p.m.
How about Angel of Glory's Rise? Have you already tried and cut it? Goes infinite with saffi.
May 9, 2017 2:19 p.m.
I have another question I'd like to throw out there. Does a commander's color identity alone imply any degree of power level, in your opinion?
For example, I see Phelddagrif listed at tier 5. Now, I'm inclined to agree that that's where I'd expect a Phelddagrif to be. However, it's entirely possible, due to sheerly being blue, green, and white, that you could build it with both flash/hulk and flash/rector in mind. I'd be somewhat intimidated by that deck.
Same with Atogatog. We all know how strong any 5 color combo deck can be, and the commander itself often doesn't matter at all. It'd be like playing Scion Druid without a commander. Like, shrug, oh well?
May 9, 2017 10:48 a.m.
n0bunga For the record, my 11:04pm post here was being drafted before I saw your comment above it, and does not reflect a response to that post. Your response above and below are examples of responses that I have been seeking. Thanks! You make a good argument that Teeg doesn't belong in tier 1 or 1.5, which I never disagreed with. Furthermore, you might have convinced me that he doesn't belong in 2. I'm not yet convinced about 2.5.
enpc brought up a good question. I've agreed not to argue. Still interested in opinions on that one.
May 9, 2017 3:10 a.m.
MrKrabs Thanks man! I'm very happy to be of positive inspiration. Can I see your saffi list?
May 9, 2017 2:51 a.m.
Okayyyy. On my phone now. Sorry for grammar And spelling
Pomagranates - you have a better argument this time. You took the time to really argue. Thank you. This is what I wanted to see. Sideboard vs mainboard is irrelevant because in cEDH, at least at my lgs, we only play one game. So there is no such thing as a nonsideboarded game. Cards in the sideboard are just as much in the mainboard as the mainboard cards in terms of competitive play. So I do play those cards in every game that they are intended for. Not sure if the norm is best 2/3. I have a slightly different philosophy of chrome mox for my deck actually. Its a good point. Chrome mox is such a staple. However, my hand is mostly relevant cards and not as often (though admittedly sometimes) carrying a blatantly irrelevant card. Against 3 opponents, it's hard to say that a given hate card is irrelevant against each of those players, and to be stuck in a situation where you either play Chrome mox pitching a relevant card and taking a severe hit of card disadvantage or not playing Chrome Mox due to that fact (which is also arguably card disadvantage) is a choice I don't want to put myself through, even under this circumstance of risk=reward. It doesn't help that I don't really have draw power. It can be difficult to play grafdigger's cage for reasons that you know. The stoney silence and null rod are much the same way, each turning off my sac outlets. Also, my tutor for cage is Enlightened tutor, which is really hard to not use on a sac outlet. Without a proper tutor package for cage, and as well for null rod or stoney silence, I don't want to put my faith in them. Even if I do use my one tutor for them, that means I'm not going for a combo piece. Its perhaps the decks greatest shortcoming. My tutors are primarily for creatures, and so my faith is in creatures too.
Esecera - No offense taken. I understand that. But wrath of God is found in some 2.0-2.5, which is claimed to be higher tier than teeg, so it's relevant. If I was claiming that Teeg was 1-1.5, then your argument would make much mor3 sense. Really though, I should have put an emphasis on Armageddon.
Ohthenoises - appreciate your honesty. The description told me that we can't just blatantly say "my commander is this tier and here's my decklist." I did my best to avoid that. I still wanted to argue that Teeg was better than tier 3. And I tried to bring real world experiences into the equation because that's what I've got. Indeed, I'm obviously biased, and misinterpreted my liberties claimed in the description. So I'll stop arguing for Teeg.
Let me just say though, that there is such thing as an insufficient response to someone making a claim for their deck. If you want to avoid bickering and maintain continuity in the thread, steer clear of bland responses.
May 9, 2017 1 a.m.
Apparently, facts, reasons, statistics, and examples are invisible here. The fact is that if I am able to stop a tier 1-1.5 combo deck from comboing off, I have essentially defeated them until they can answer my hatebear (be it Teeg or something else like Linvala), which I can aim to protect. Please remember that Teeg isn't my only hatebear. He aims to protect my boardstate from 4 CMC+ wraths, armageddon, and to cut off common upper-end win conditions like Ad Nauseum, Reservoir, Paradox Engine, tooth and nail etc. Again, he's not my only hatebear. He has a certain job and function. I like the security he offers. Other GW decks will lose to Armageddon and won't be fast enough to stop Reservoir etc. That's why Teeg stands out here. He's the glue.
Whether or not I can throw my hate-blanket over your deck and keep it held translates to whether or not I win the game. If it sticks, I win. If it doesn't, oh well. I can make similar statements about other tier 2 decks. Take Maelstrom Wanderer for example. If you can ramp up to a lot of mana and set up your cascades simultaneously, then cast your commander, you're likely in the lead. If not, you're probably going to lose. In basically whatever combo shell you're doing, if you don't run into a counterspell for your tutor or your relevant combo piece, nor do you run into basically any kind of interaction, you probably win. If you do run into basically any sort of interaction and you're not prepared for it, you're probably out of the game. It just so happens that my axis is hatebears, and I can still potentially combo off on turns 2-4 if I have a good start. Playing hatebears in any other shell, like Sisay or Saffi, just means that you're more dedicated to a combo that probably isn't fast enough on its own, which is why they aren't tier 1. The real better shell for this deck rather than Teeg isn't Sisay or Saffi. It's Karador. That's why Karador is deserving of tier 1.5. He's a faster teeg/sisay/saffi deck with better sac outlets and more tutors and redundancy. He is clearly superior, yet even he is still behind the game against tier 1.
"...non creatures above 4 CMC seems fairly bad."
- it's 4 or more. Not above 4. And the list isn't that bad. While it doesn't stop absolutely everything (that would be too broken obviously), it does stop a list of 40 cards represented in the mainboards of tier 1-1.5 decks. That complete list is in a comment of mine above. While not all cards on that list are crazy ridiculous power cards, some of them are. It's definitely not just a list of bad cards.
I'll be back in either a couple of hours or tomorrow to continue responding. But I will ignore responses that don't seem to have very much effort.
May 8, 2017 11:04 p.m.
Legendxp Seriously? It should be pretty well-known now. Leovold is banned.
May 8, 2017 9:23 p.m.
p0megranates I've been playing Gaddock Teeg for a while now. I can say that Sisay, while being able to tutor stuff and has that redundancy, lacks the ability to tutor the full spectrum of hatebears necessary for the array of situations in tier 1-1.5. It doesn't tutor Aven Mindcensor. It doesn't tutor Sanctum Prelate. It doesn't tutor Eidolon of Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist. Now, GW has plenty of creature tutor power, and so that isn't a big issue. I've considered playing Sisay in my 99, but I evaluated that it just doesn't have an impact when it comes into play without haste. On the following turn, if he's still around, I can tutor a card, but it's probably not going to be the card I really need. It only gets legendary cards, which can't solve any problem. In order to leverage the power of this ability to the fullest, I would have to change my creature base to a higher-curved package with what feels like slower impact and response time. My deck is already just a liiiiiittle bit slow. To add a Sisay or to even consider playing Sisay as my commander would make me even slower.
Your argument regarding Chain of Vapor is a bit invalid here, as it is mostly equally as strong against both Teeg and Sisay. It gets rid of the card that is stopping them from winning, except if we have a Sylvan Safekeeper in play or an active Mother of Runes. Turns out though, in fact, that Chain of Vapor hits Sisay pretty hard, since without haste, it has to be around for a cycle to become relevant. You can actually set Sisay back a whole turn with that one blue mana. And that turn that a Sisay player is cut off from is such a crutial turn. It's not something that they can just come back from. Teeg is immediately impactful and doesn't have to overcome summon sickness to be effective.
"Half of those cards are exclusively played in three decks."
Hermit druid is a common top tier strategy. It plays Dread Return. I stop dread return. Outside of a lucky turn 1 or 2 win, they have to kill my commander to win, which often sets their clock 1 turn back, increasing their overall vulnerability. I've seen plenty of combo decks rely on Aetherflux Reservoir and/or Paradox Engine to win. I cut off both of those too. You won't be able to beat me with Nauseam either. Don't expect to be able to rely on Force of Will either. And keep in mind, we're just talking about my commander. I'm still a hatebear deck. Just because I don't have Sisay doesn't mean that I can't get access to an early Linvala if I need it. Green and white have plenty of tutoring for creatures. The redundancy is there. The selection is there. I can tutor for answers to a large portion of the rest of the field. Perhaps my hardest matchup is food chain due to it being difficult to interact with, but even that is beatable.
I'm also not saying Teeg needs to be bumped up to tier 1. Definitely not. Not even 1.5. But looking at the tier descriptions, I think tier 2 fits perfectly.
- Less powerful than the tier 1 decks (I agree here. Tier 1 is very exclusive), but still quite strong (Yeah. I hold my own.), these can definitely hold their own against tier 1 decks (Exactly my stance. Not quite on a perfectly level playing field as tier 1, but I can hold my own.). They are usually a turn slower than tier 1 decks, or they have consistency problems (Guilty on the turn slower. I'm pretty consistent though.).
- This is the middle tier. They can't usually compete against tier 1 decks (This doesn't seem to describe me accurately), but might do fine with tier 2 decks (I do well against tier 2 decks, seeing as we are in the same tier.). They usually have "the Aggro Problem," or they are wildly inconsistent (Green/White isn't inconsistent if you play all the tutors.). Most of the "pubstomp" decks that dominate casual meta go in here. They may have a bad reputation, but that doesnt' make them tier 1.
It's pretty clear that you haven't played against a tuned Teeg list, nor any Teeg list I imagine. That's not meant to be insulting. I'm sure most people haven't. He's certainly a bit under the radar, but that doesn't mean he's not strong. Really looking for some other opinions here.
May 8, 2017 9:22 p.m.
p0megranates You're totally right. The following list is just a short list of maybe 3 or 4 completely irrelevant cards, and having a way to stop all of them every game insistently in the command zone just seems terrible.
- Force of Will
- Ad Nauseum
- Aetherflux Reservoir
- Fact or Fiction
- Tezzeret the Seeker
- Thran Dynamo
- Gilded Lotus
- Memory Jar
- Time Spiral
- Dig Through Time
- Treasure Cruise
- Dread Return
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Past in Flames
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Dark Petition
- Whir of Invention
- Paradox Engine
- Myr Turbine
- Citanul Flute
- Splinter Twin
- Parallax Wave
- Living Plane
- Time Warp
- Temporal Manipulation
- Capture of Jingzhou
- Wrath of God
- Narset Transcendent
- Supreme Verdict
- Helm of Obedience
- Future Sight
- Birthing Pod
- Natural Order
- Greater Good
- Tooth and Nail
That's a list generated from the mainboards of the tier 1-1.5 lists up top. Didn't touch tier 2 or maybeboards. I played against Captain Sisay a few times. I found it rather predictable, really easy to interact with and completely hose.
May 8, 2017 11:02 a.m.
So I guess I am biased because I play Gaddock Teeg, and here's the obligatory, "I feel like my deck should be higher than tier 3," statement for you.
So basically here's my argument, with Gaddock Teeg in the command zone, it is implied that we're going to be playing a game with mostly lower-costed noncreature spells. Right at the get-go, I'm perfectly happy playing a creature deck against wraths, especially most of that garbage in my neighboring "tier 3" play. The only wraths that honestly pose a threat are Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge, both of which I can play around with Sanctum Prelate, and in Toxic Deluge's case specifically, Angel of Jubilation. I think that perhaps the strongest card against me is Ixidron, which is absent in most tier 1-1.5 lists.
I know pitting two decks against eachother in 1v1 is a horrible metric for pod quality, but I've 1v1'd Teferi, Temporal Archmage and held a positive win-ratio against it over the course of many games. I've gone 1v1 against Yidris Storm and absolutely stomped it with a 90% winrate. I generally go 50/50 against Tazri. Before Leovold was banned, I was hashing out at least 50%+ winrate. These lists I'm playing against are very close to the tier one lists posted up top.
The rest of the tier 1 list is about 40/60 at worst. Generally, against top tier combo, I stand my own against the field, since I have a hate card for all of them, and most of them seriously hate teeg and his friends. Against stax, I'm not feeling great, but I'm also not feeling terrible. The Blood Moon can sometimes be a bit hairy to play around, but not entirely too difficult. I'm not saying Teeg is tier 1. But I can say for certain it's not tier 3. I would dominate a tier 3 metagame as it stands here.
I'll leave my personal list out of the comments. I'm curious how threatening a Gaddock Teeg hatebear combo deck sounds to you guys? Protean hulk has been helpful, as it has with other decks too obviously. I've had combo wins as early as turn 2. Opinions?
May 8, 2017 12:08 a.m.
I strongly agree with Zaueski. Unless it looks like a commander deck you'd have fun playing with (and I mean really have fun playing with because a $50 deck aint got shit for value and $1-3 cards don't count for value when you're trading a card worth more than $20), then I wouldn't trade it.
Let me tell you what a card worth $2 does in a trade binder. It collects dust until you make an actually relevant trade and you're about $2 off and they need to find something worth $2 in your binder, so they pity take your random $2 card. When you want to trade for a card that you need, and your buddy has it but is only looking to trade for value, then they're pretty much looking to get a card in relatively high-enough demand worth $10+.
I remember the days when I had cards worth about $3-6, and I figured that if I could find someone who had an Oracle of Mul Daya for trade, then I'd just be like, "Hey. I've got these cards worth $3-6 each, and I'll give you a bunch of them adding up to a little over $20. Let's make this trade happen." But that's not how it works. Oracle of Mul Daya doesn't trade often for cards worth less than Oracle of Mul Daya. Food for thought.
May 7, 2017 10:09 p.m.
First off, welcome to Magic! :)
You have chosen a good color my friend. Instead of telling you what is right and what is wrong with your deck, I want to instead tell you about evaluating a card's power level.
Firstly, as a blue player, it is your job to keep the game under control. In EDH, that job isn't always easy, and requires you to have a both a lot of resources, and a lot cards in your hand to play with. If you run out of cards in your hand, you have lost control of the game. When a blue player loses control of the game, things get very bad. So when you look at a card and try to determine how good it is for your deck, think about whether or not it helps you keep the game under control and/or keeps your hand stocked with cards.
One of the cards in your deck is a fantastic example: Azami, Lady of Scrolls. She is beautiful. Every turn, she adds another card to your hand. She keeps your hand stocked up, and that makes her good. Your commander also keeps your hand stocked, since it also draws cards.
Check out these cards that have both ends of the spectrum (control and card-draw):
- Dismiss: Counters a spell and draws a card. It's exactly what you're looking for.
- Repulse: Disrupt your opponent's gameplan, and restock your hand with yet another card to play with. Awesome.
- Repeal: Same concept. Great interruption and draws a card.
- Mystic Confluence: Ouch! This costs like $8... but hey. It's always nice to have a goal and to be introduced to higher power-level cards. It gives you some perspective.
- Cryptic Command: Ooooo gurl this card is expensive, but look how strong and magical it is. :D
Something that might take a while to figure out is a very important fact. Drawing cards isn't the only way to gain card advantage. You see, as a blue player, it's okay to go down on the number of cards you're playing with, as long as someone else goes down harder. For example, Curse of the Swine is a very good card. For only one card from you, you get to mop the floor with lots of your opponents' creatures. This is considered card advantage because now you're way ahead of them on sheer number of cards. In commander, the 2/2 pigs are pretty much worthless. Your life total is high enough to make that not matter. If they're really bothering you, you can just use Wash Out, naming green. Wash Out is another example of a really good card that can take control of a game. Cards like those that return a large number of creatures back to their owners' hands can be life savers when the board is starting to look hairy. If you don't want them to assemble their creature again very quickly, you could play a card like Arcane Laboratory. You're a slow deck anyway. It shouldn't bother you too much. However, it really slows down your opponents.
You should also know that when you play cards like Frost Lynx or Chant of the Skifsang, you're only delaying the inevitable. You haven't taken control of the game as we would say. In fact, you're likely still backed into a corner. Wouldn't it be nice to just do something like Rapid Hybridization, Pongify, or Reality Shift? Cards that actually take care of your problems are the ones that will save you from dying.
Another strong type a card is one that continues to do things as time in the game goes on, and the longer they're in play, the more they become worth their mana investment. A fantastic example of this is Talrand, Sky Summoner. While he's not too threatening the turn he comes into play, he can possible take over the game completely after being in play for a while. Another really good example is Crystal Shard. It can return your creatures to your hand that have good "enters the battlefield" effects, and your opponents won't want to tap out completely or else you'll bounce their crap. Rhystic Study is a bit expensive, but very strong. It's exactly the king of card that offers longevity and late-game power because it draws cards over time and keeps your hand full of options. Same with Staff of Nin and Mystic Remora.
In conclusion, think about longevity. Think about drawing cards. Think about cards that hit the battlefield with impact, and cards that give you advantage over time. Be patient. You'll get there.
May 7, 2017 9:57 p.m.
Well you can remove Leovold, Emissary of Trest from the list.
May 7, 2017 9:23 p.m.
Your curve is looking a bit funky. So many 5 drops and not so many 4-drops. 1-drops are also slacking.
No Birthing Pod? No Living Death? You're certainly on your way to something here. I'm looking at your update and it's a step in the right direction. I see that you're aiming more for longevity and playing stronger late-game cards. I also noticed that you're on a budget. If you wanted to pump up your game a little bit for $16~, consider picking up both Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Woodfall Primus, which goes infinite under with your sac outlets.
May 7, 2017 9:20 p.m.
yeaGO I can see how we can seem rude to outside observers. Sorry about that. We'll try to tone it down to avoid confusion in the future.
May 7, 2017 6:12 p.m.
May 7, 2017 6:02 p.m.
Thanks again Emzed for your commentary. I'm trying out the Mirror Entity. I'm 10 games in so far and haven't combo'd off with it yet. I imagine it to be an infrequent thing. I did win a game though with Mirror Entity activating or like 10 mana. :P
May 7, 2017 1:44 p.m.
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|Playing since||Return to Ravnica|
|Avg. deck rating||28.04|
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|Favorite formats||Legacy, Commander / EDH|
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