[Community Discussion]: Is "RTFC" ever not rude?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 16, 2014, 7:46 p.m. by Epochalyptik
It's been a long time since the last Community Discussion.
Magic's Comprehensive Rulebook is pretty daunting, especially if you're a new player. Many players haven't even opened it. But for the purpose of this question, we aren't concerned with the Dark Depths of the CR. We're going to be talking about things like asking if you can respond to a removal spell with Birthing Pod 's ability, or if you can bounce your own permanent with Cyclonic Rift .
Generally, it's best to be helpful when answering questions like this (i.e. those that are addressed by the written text of the card), but is there a point at which the RTFC response is admissible? That is, is there a point at which you would stop trying to explain something and just tell the other player to read the card?
Magic is a game of learning. You learn rules. You learn "proper" plays. You learn matchups. Most people would probably agree that the learning process is easier and more fun when other players are helping you through it. But how much patience do you have with this process?
Feel free to share stories, anecdotes, or philosophies! You're welcome to expand the topic to include other teaching experiences if you find you'd like to comment on some more general ideas.
Rhadamanthus says... #2
There are some serious douchebags out there. Not very many, but it seems like they definitely try to make their presence count.
September 19, 2014 9:29 a.m.
OutspokenFerret says... #3
RTFC is always rude, whether your frustration is understandable or not is another. If someone is being stubborn, call a judge, if you aren't at an event, look it up, and if they continue to argue, stop playing. Getting upset in some cases is understandable, but it is never the right thing. If you continue to stay kind and say, "I see where that might be a bit hazy, let's grab a judge so we don't have to argue." Or if without a judge "If you want we can look it up :D It is pretty confusing." I think RTFC sends the message to newer players that we are non-inclusive, and that's the last thing we want.
September 19, 2014 10:44 a.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #4
I would never ever say it to a new player. Especially as a judge, I think it's silly/fucking stupid to be rude to somebody for not knowing the rules, unless it's in a ribbing fashion with an entrenched playgroup. I've actually told my LGS owner to RTFC when he tried to pyroclasm my board of zombies on my turn. (I was playing vintage dredge, he was playing 4c control.)
September 19, 2014 1:22 p.m.
LordOfDispair says... #5
At a big tournament, and with something really dumb (like either of the two examples you listed or worse), RTFC responses are fine. In lower key settings, though, you should be more polite about it, as it is for fun and you don't know where your opponent might be coming from.
September 19, 2014 6:12 p.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #6
@ pskinn01 hahah awesome. very ironic indeed :)
September 20, 2014 2:24 a.m.
Seraphicate says... #7
I think that the first impression a community gives a new player would be one of the most important things in how they turn out, I am fairly glad that the people who got me back into Magic, and the people at my LGS are very friendly, simply pointing out mistakes and mis-plays whenever I made any, and never using RTFC to explain anything. Thanks to them, I try to pass on that kindness to pretty much every player I come across.
I've only ever had to RTC people who Doom Blade black creatures, or RTFC people who insist certain cards interact in certain ways.
September 20, 2014 8:08 a.m.
That's actually never happened to me, and I've never had to say that to anyone. maybe once or twice, but it isn't very often. the last time I remember was like a few months, and it was so minor I don't even remember what it was for it was so minor.
September 20, 2014 8:52 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #9
Here is what I think about "RTFC." There is a certain level of competition where you should know what your cards do. If you try to argue at a GP that your Lightning Bolt does 4 damage, I will not hesitate to say RTFC. That being said, there are some more simple mistakes that can be made, typically involving the opponent's cards ( I think someone mentioned Spellstutter Sprite , which is often thought of as a soft counter to people who have never played with it). I try to be polite, but some people make it hard. I used to play Scapeshift in modern, but I scrapped the deck because I was tired of having to call the judge every round to explain to someone why they are dead.
September 20, 2014 11:23 a.m.
You can never be too rude to people who can't be bothered to learn the game.
September 20, 2014 5:16 p.m.
NoSoyYucateco says... #12
I think it's definitely situational, as others have stated. If it's just a matter of an honest misunderstanding of the card, then it is probably not necessary. I am usually on the receiving end of RTFC rather than the other way around, but I am quick to admit that I've misunderstood a card or an interaction.
When it's not me who is misunderstanding, I am very patient and try to explain to them why what they are doing doesn't work that way (I am a teacher, I am good at this kind of thing). Of course, I have still come across players who really push the issue about a play, but at that point I usually just bring in a third party (preferably a judge) who can back me up.
September 21, 2014 3:08 a.m.
As someone who has cardsleeves backed with "RTFC", I always try to be maximally helpful and polite when answering rules questions.
September 21, 2014 2:46 p.m.
As a level 2 judge, I've given players an RTFC response without specifically saying it. Such as someone asking if they can do something, and I state "as the card reads,..."
When the text on the card answers the question, it's perfectly reasonable to instruct someone to read the card.
September 21, 2014 7:41 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #15
I think the thing about RTFC though isn't what you're saying, it's how you're saying. I tell someone that's new at the game 'as the card reads', or 'like the card says'. I only tell people to rtfc if they're buddies of mine that have been playing for years and try to kill my Steel Overseer with Go for the Throat .
September 21, 2014 9:53 p.m.
If I can tell that someone's new to the game, I'll help them through whatever problems they have, especially if it's through tricky things like the stack, or planeswalkers, or even evergreen keywords (it took me a couple years to understand first strike).
For more advanced players, I will gladly explain things like trying to kill a creature to stop a sacrifice doesn't work or such rules confusion they might have. But when it's a matter of them just not reading their own cards (like Cyclonic Rift , since that card is only good if it can't target your stuff), I will be a little impatient. There's no need for losing your head over a card game, though, especially when it's a mistake.
If it's someone who is just arguing that they're right when they're blatantly wrong, I'll generally just call a judge. I've been fortunate enough to not play casual with people who won't listen to reason.
September 21, 2014 11:17 p.m.
SwiftDeath says... #17
I have taught a lot of people in my playgroup how to play magic and I never will tell them RTFC as a rules explanation. I will always tell them what ruling it refers to so they have a greater understanding of how the rule works with other spells. This makes it less likely that they will need help later involving the same interaction. That being said I stress highly that you should be aware of what your card does and your opponent also has to be aware of the same. I will tell them RTFC is the most common answer to all basic questions and I will make them aware that RTFC exists and others may say this to you if you don't play your spells correctly.
September 22, 2014 4:36 a.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #18
1 time, I thought Banisher Priest could exile nonland permanents, took away a Sphere of Safety , and won the game. Then, afterwards, I realized I read the card wrong, but the other guy technically conceded, so I won the match.
My goal for KTK is to not have another moment like that, especially with Anafenza, the Foremost and put the counter on an untapped creature.
September 22, 2014 7:46 p.m.
Even as a judge, I played an entire match of the RTR prerelease playing a sorcery as an instant. Everyone makes mistakes!
September 23, 2014 4:51 p.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #20
yesterday we had our store owner yell at a little kid because the kid looked at his starting hand, THEN said sry i wanted to go 2nd. turns out the kid was playing a fast reanimater and won cuz of discard turn1. then he went "sorry, my manners" then he realized the kid played ebon stronghold untapped and that was his RTFC moment. then again he went all oh I am sorry about yelling at you... it wasnt right but it was kinda entertaining for the others
September 24, 2014 3:15 a.m.
Ragnarocker says... #21
It's rude is the opposing player is dyslexic/can't read at all. Check your privilege, cis-het ableist scum!
September 24, 2014 3:27 a.m.
Ragnarok73 says... #22
I generally will say this only if I've had to remind someone more than twice or three times. I play with a guy who's learning the game, and he has a habit of making the same mistake multiple times in a game. When it's the first or second time, I will generally explain why he cannot do it based on the card text, but after that, it's a reminder to read the damn card. He does tend to drink while playing, and his memory suffers, so I've stopped playing with him when he's drunk.
September 24, 2014 4:26 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #23
Drunk or stoned is the worst way to play this game, unless everyone is partaking. You kind of have to pay attention.
September 24, 2014 4:27 p.m.
_SeriosSkies_ says... #24
but when everyone is partaking its the best way to play the game.
September 24, 2014 10:47 p.m.
I usually say RTFC if I misread a card, then proceed to laugh it off.
However, I don't say it to others, nor would I want others to say that to me. I'd say it's a "don't blame the weapon, blame the wielder" sort of principle. RTFC can be used in a more positive light but it all depends on the tone of the one who says it.
To use the term in a positive light is to politely spell it out for them, as in read the card, and look at what you're doing. However, I've usually seen it used in a negative light, and I believe that the term RTFC isn't to blame. Again, it's all about the tone of voice the person took in when he or she said it.
September 25, 2014 4 p.m.
Jace the Firebrand says... #26
I've had one person on this site tell me essentially to RTFC. I had a landfall mill deck using Hedron Crab and Scapeshift . To make the deck run as smooth as possible, I used 4 Green Sun's Zenith s to tutor for crabs. Didn't realize that it specified green creatures. Once someone told to to double check the card, I felt pretty stupid and had to abandon the deck (Chord of Calling just doesn't work all that well). If he had simply stated that it only pulls green creatures, I might have argued a little bit. But all he said was "Take a closer look at Green Sun's Zenith . I don't think it works the way you think it works." And then I got the message
September 26, 2014 3:39 p.m.
When somebody casts a Devouring Light targeting my Stormbreath Dragon I skip this part of the conversation:
Me "It doesn't work" -> Them "But i'm attacking" -> Me "RTFC"
And as soon as they declare the target I say "read the card" normally.
What I think is more annoying than a person who hasn't memorized all of their cards making a text error is when somebody throws down a haste creature (lets use stormbreath again) and then says "take 4". It's especially annoying if they are a regular and even more so if they place. I expect better out of somebody.
It's just so annoying when people who win a lot and play a lot try to skip entire phases and say "I win". That's why my favorite thing to do in commander is casts instants during their upkeep. It forces them to pay attention to what i'm doing at all times and helps prevent an arrogant play style.
September 27, 2014 12:47 a.m.
when I was learning, if we didn't know what to do, we'd read each card several times over and try to work it out ourselves with our limited knowledge of the rules. Usually we'd come upon a word or two in the text like "opponent controls" or "owner's" or in the case of a card like Cyclonic Rift we just assumed it worked like a similar spell and didn't really read it at all at first. Then we'd re-read it and see "don't control" and have a facepalm moment.
So every time I teach a perfect n00b, I teach them the following
- Basic turn structure,
- How to make mana and how to play cards with mana
- basic card types and how they're played
- Read the card. You can do what the card says even if it seems like it would be against the rules.
- If you can't do something, I'll tell you. If you can, I'll tell you how to do it the best way.
I do all this during the course of a game. The best way to learn is to play, even if you don't know how yet.
so to answer the question: Yes, RTFC is often an appropriate response, though you definitely shouldn't be a dick about it.
September 27, 2014 2:49 a.m.
RTC I believe can only apply to beginners. this is due to basic knowledge of the game, so yes, they may not understand that they can't Devouring Light a Stormbreath Dragon . It is perfectly fine to GENTLY remind the player what protection from white is. RTFC can really only be used in no situations I can think of. If you are using a card against an experience player, hopefully they know what the card does, and if they don't RTFC just basically turns into a dick. Just GENTLY and CALMLY explain what a card does. Noone wants to hear it, and there is always a better way.
September 27, 2014 11:20 a.m.
Well, even experienced players do tend to be forgetful. We're human, we do make mistakes such as misreading a card. If the person is dealing with an experienced player who misread a card or forget a trigger, they could phrase their words so that it doesn't come off as a rude comment.
September 27, 2014 11:26 a.m.
Ender666666 says... #32
RTFC is never an acceptable response, because the F stands for swear word, used specifically to be shocking and contentious.
On the other hand, what RTFC represents, the instruction to re-read that and really understand if it does what you think it does, is ALWAYS acceptable. It's all about delivery.
RTFC = "You're a moron. Read the card you illiterate jackhole!"
Why not just say "I don't think that card does what you think it does... Why don't you re-read it carefully and then let me know if you still want to do that?" is much more appropriate.
And in regards to your hostility matching theirs, I say no. Better to calmly have them see their mistake and de-escalate the situation than to turn it into a clash of egos. From my experience, people are far less likely to admit they are wrong, or to be receptive to learning something new or a change in opinion, if they are seeing red and Berserker angry.
Be the better player, kill 'em with kindness (and MTG Cards).
September 28, 2014 1:19 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #33
Being told to reread a card isn't bad but rtfc isn't a cool thing to tell people.
I had an instance where a judge misinterpreted the "miracle" mechanic and told several people how to play it incorrectly. My normal play groups never played with miracle often but the false interpretation stuck with me. Recently I tried to play a miracle the way I was taught and was torn apart for it "rtfc" was probably the most polite thing said in the statement. The perpetrator ended up scooping the next turn when I told him to rtfc in return with my Grand Abolisher
September 28, 2014 9:42 p.m.
Actually there is another card that can remove land cards from the hand by choosing :Psychotic Episode .
September 29, 2014 7 a.m.
Ender666666: True, the "F" does stand for a bad word. However, it can also mean "Fine," as in read the fine print. I tend to see it this way but I do see where you're coming from.
September 29, 2014 2:04 p.m.
Sparda1127 says... #36
I feel that if a person is completely unaware of how to go about a play, or the rulings on a card, RTFC is pretty rude. I do agree with Gidgetimer, though. If someone decides to just flat out argue with you despite knowing what's correct, then I feel RTFC is totally acceptable.
For example, I have a friend that would argue with me constantly(and still does) that hybrid mana cards(Judge's Familiar , Steel of the Godhead , etc) were the color you used to play them. I still have the hybrid mana rulings memorized I told it to him so many times.
September 29, 2014 2:56 p.m.
blasphemale says... #37
I think there's no point on which rtfc becomes acceptable, and I think the whole idea of it becoming acceptable due to conditions is wrong to begin with. You are simply being rude because of the words you are using. You can show some annoyance after it's become just that, and be not-so friendly anymore, but I don't see certain situations rectifying the use, unless of course you're joking, knowing where this joke is appreciated.
September 30, 2014 5:07 p.m.
LOLOLOLOLOL its never rude, you just need to simply read the card..... it's lingo
September 30, 2014 6:17 p.m.
I always make the joke with people that
Rule 1 of Magic Club - Read your cards
Rule 2 of Magic Club - Read your cards
It's something that new/less experienced have a tendency to forgot. Even experienced players don't always do it.
I think the rude part is obviously the "f" part. Some people don't appreciate swear words. Others find them pleasantly enjoyable when used in a flavorful manor and not to overabundance.
This kind of question feels a little pedantic to me. This is a public forum and in general, I'd say if your not outright attacking people, it's ok. But it's important to remember other people won't always appreciate it.
I'd never actually say it out loud at an event or such, but I've played games online and said "rtfc" to people when we've made mistakes. It's only ever been met by laughs. I never outright type the phrase, so maybe that makes a difference, I'm not sure.
I think the bottom line, is just don't be rule to people.
Maybe I should make Rule 3 of Magic Club - Don't be a Dick!
October 1, 2014 9:07 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #40
Then there was this one group I played with that said that tapped artifacts have no abilities. One guy even scooped because I told him that our opponents card still had an effect even though it is tapped, even though, we were both far from losing the game. He just got butthurt that tapping an artifact didn't make it lose abilities (like it used to in olden days).
October 1, 2014 1:04 p.m.
Some people seem to forget that it's a game. I get at a competitive level why you might get frustrated, but some people just take it WAAAAY too seriously. Ultimatly it's about having fun, whatever that means to you, so getting angry when things don't go your way just ruins it for you and everyone else.
October 1, 2014 1:30 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #42
@ Maltanis I completely agree with your last two comments. Magic is about fun at its core we are all playing a game and when someone decides to go out and have a pissing contest and be rude to other players its no fun for anyone.
October 1, 2014 2:28 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #43
Maltanis is right. Unless you're joshing around, being mean and/or rude is simply going to make everybody have a shittier time of it.
On very rare occasions, I will show slight anger at players who argue with me about certain cards when they are clearly in the wrong. It sucks when people won't be reasonable, but that's just how these things shake out sometimes. Cursing at them doesn't help, although I daresay some of these jackasses need a harsh verbal slapping a time or two. Usually, I resort to "Judge!" or proceed to carefully explain to my opponent why they are mistaken.
October 1, 2014 4:21 p.m.
I'm a player who tries to use cards that are novel, or uncommonly played. I'll describe what the card's effect is while handing it to the other player(s). I feel that most of the time, after giving a summary of the card, most players want to see it, anyway.
Likewise, when a player misplays, or overlooks something from the rules text, I take a similar approach. I'll explain how the interaction plays out, and also refer them to the part in the rules text that is relevant. "See how this card says, 'comes into play' instead of , 'is cast?' That's why this doesn't work that way." My hope is that this method illustrates the rules in a broader sense.
October 1, 2014 4:31 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #45
What's annoying is when people miss their draw steps and ask to draw. It's also annoying when they ask to "go back" when they play the wrong land or do a general misplay. Can't stand it.
At my kitchen table, after you're considered "not a beginner," if you miss your draw step, you skip it. If you mess up a play, tough. Babying people will simply keep them at a novice level. At a certain point, mistakes must cost people. Sometimes being harsh and unyielding is the best way to take someone's game to the next level.
That being said, rudeness is almost always unnecessary.
October 1, 2014 4:39 p.m.
JakeHarlow, at the kitchen table with an established group I get it. But if I go to fnm I try to be pretty leniant. If game 1 I'm up against an established player I know will be playing his best regardless, I'll make sure I'm not missing draws, triggers etc. And once I hit the top table I know at that point your playing a higher stakes game. But if I sit down game 1 aginst some of the other experienced, but more laid back, players, we let certain things slide. And if I'm sat at the bottom table I just stop caring and play for fun and doing the most entertaining things possible.
"Babying people" is a statement I'm not fond off. If a guy misses his draw step and it's still his first main phase, I'll let it slide and remind him not to. If it's a trigger I let it go if it's not gone to far. I tend to remind them, and if it happens a second time I tell them if they miss it again, they won't get it (I always remind them when they miss it however)
Being harsh and unyielding can put a lot of people off, and makes the game intimidating to players who are new to it. When people miss triggers and such, explain to them the finer details like draw then untap, when triggers activate. It's times like that when I get people to read the card out themselves and then go through it step by step.
I understand your annoyance, and like I said, at top table, it's fair enough to expect a slightly higher level of play (even though newer players can still make it up there, so be wary of them) but don't let it ruin a good time for someone who just came along to play.
I hope that wasn't to forward, I don't want you to feel like I'm chastising you, but I do worry about the atitudes some players have at times. We have a guy in our store who regualarly sites down in front of people and says things like "This isn't going to go well for you" or "Oh your new, you probably won't do very well then" The best guys in our store all agree he's a total douche. The kind of people we don't want to encourage.
October 1, 2014 7:55 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #47
Those are extremely reasonable points, Maltanis. I try to be welcoming to new players whenever possible. Like you, at FNM, I allow things to slide most of the time, unless I'm in the middle of Top 8 elimination rounds or firmly in the winners' bracket. I like to help new players get better at the game, and I want them to enjoy FNM so that they'll return. A diverse playgroup is a better playgroup. Plus, nobody likes the douche who judges everybody and rules lawyers without cessation.
The time to be harsh and unyielding around the kitchen table, in my opinion, is when the same player who should know better repeatedly misses triggers, draw steps, and asks over and over to re-do plays. It slows the game down and is pretty unsatisfying to play across from.
I'm usually an easygoing opponent who encourages everybody to have fun. After all, it's a game. :)
October 1, 2014 8:05 p.m.
Id say that RTFC is acceptable in a casual environment with friends, as a joke. As a newer player of the game,I feel the MTG community has a high number of elitist or impatient people behind it. Often times when I (or when i see someone) make a minor mistake or ask a question, players respond with a snide remark or make the response seem insulting. I really like the play-styles and diversity you can develop with this game, but a large portion of its players' attitudes almost pushed myself and others i know away from the game simply because they have very poor interpersonal skills. When dealing with newcomers or someone asking for help please remember that it's just a card game.
~~~~also if someone asks for help with a non-meta deck, dont tell them to trash it and build a meta deck. try to think outside the box and expand plays around an existing structure~~~~
Arsene says... #1
Does this happen to people a lot? I've only ever heard it amongst friends giving each other a hard time. It seems impossibly douchey if you're being serious.
September 19, 2014 7:57 a.m.