The Crown Scourge
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on June 25, 2020, 1:02 a.m. by Viera
I had a question in regards to the new card, Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge. Do you wizards think this cards works as a voltron commander?
Omniscience_is_life says... #3
I wouldn’t say a voltron commander needs hexproof per se, as long as you have Heroic Intervention type effects built into the deck.
As to the main question, I would say this card only partially lends itself to voltron, definitely wouldn’t be my first choice.
June 25, 2020 1:18 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #4
Omniscience_is_life you would need to dedicate a significant portion of the deck to protection effects and counterspells, and then also be willing to keep mana up for it every turn. its just so much more space and mana efficient to use a commander with hexproof. and with the existence of "commander damage", Uril, the Miststalker is strictly the best voltron commander. slap on some auras with any sort of evasion and then just punch people in the mouth until someone is forced to play a board wipe.
June 25, 2020 1:31 a.m.
bushido_man96 says... #5
This speaks to me as an Aristocrat style, sac-happy build. Reminds me of the Covetous Dragon that ran in Wildfire decks years ago.
June 25, 2020 1:48 a.m.
TonyStark9001: When playing voltron, you already have to devote a chunk of the deck to buffing your commander as well as typically giving them some sort of evasion (flying, trample, unblockable, etc.). Gadrak already has flying, so you can devote less slots to evasion and just run a bunch of hexproof equipment instead.
As for Uril being "strictly" the best Voltron commander, I'm pretty sure that title goes to Rafiq of the Many. Because blue trumps hexproof.
June 26, 2020 1:09 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #7
enpc: gadrak having flying doesn't mean anything. most of the best enchantments already grant evasion anyway. if you're trying to say you can dedicate those evasion enchantment slots to counterspells or other protection, thats just not right, because flying alone isn't enough. blue in NO way trumps hexproof. there is nothing you can get from blue that balances the heavy mana investment and card advantage you lose from having your opponent blow up your commander and several auras with just a single spell. do you like giving your opponent a "5 for 1" when they Terminate your rafiq? i sure wouldn't. do you like paying that commander tax multiple times and replaying your auras (if you can even manage to draw more) again? i don't. so i'll take hexproof. theres a reason why auras never see play on any non-hexproof creatures outside of commander. look at modern bogles and try tellin me blue beats hexproof. if that were true, modern bogles would look very different.
now you might try to come back with "but blue has counterspells for protection and card draw to refill my hand". but thats a pretty poor argument. holding up mana for counterspells means not using that mana for auras and equipment, which means you're not actively playing the voltron strategy anymore. its meant to be aggressive, not "draw-go" or midrange. as for the draw spells, its just not efficient to rely on whatever draw engine you have to refill your hand (and not get targeted by removal) when you should have protected your win condition from the beginning.
in conclusion, hexproof is a must. it offers the most protection while requiring the least amount of effort. basically none. there are no drawbacks, and no opportunity cost.
June 26, 2020 2:01 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #8
TonyStark9001 with all due respect, if voltron was limited to commanders that have hexproof, it wouldn’t really be a viable strategy that as many people that use it now do. Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots were made for a reason
June 26, 2020 2:19 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #9
Omniscience_is_life: those 2 cards were not made "specifically" for voltron commander strategies. they're for any deck that wants to give its creatures some protection. so don't try to say that voltron commander strategies are the reason for their existence. it isn't. and you have to realize that just because a people use a valid strategy incorrectly, doesn't mean their application of it is correct or viable. "voltron" is a viable strategy BECAUSE of hexproof. just like modern. modern bogles simply would not exist without cheap hexproof creatures. but by all means if you wanna open yourself to that 5-for-1 (or more) then be my guest.
June 26, 2020 2:31 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #10
Omniscience_is_life: it should also be noted that Lightning Greaves gives shroud, which is absolutely NOT want you want on your voltron commander as it stops you from targeting your commander with further auras or equipment.
June 26, 2020 2:33 a.m.
Comparing modern bogles to commander voltron is comparing apples and oranges. And notbody said that hexproof isn't great for voltron commanders.
Stright up, yes, counterspells are amazing. there are so many zero and one CMC protection counterspells to keep your commander alive that it's really not hard to hold up some removal while progressing your board state. And for a strategy like voltron, you need to keep pressure on your opponents. Blue does this much better than red does.
In addition to that, generally the best voltron strategies lean into equipment rather than auras due to the fragility of auras. And leveraging something like a Sigarda's Aid + Colossus Hammer is really all you need for Rafiq.
Not to mention, hexproof is not the be-all and end-all protection for your commander. Council's Judgment is a card, so is Arcane Lighthouse, Bonds of Mortality and Shadowspear. And while your opponents may not initially run these cards and you get a few games in where you're in the clear, these cards will soon make their way into decks.
June 26, 2020 3:24 a.m.
As fot the actual premise of this thread, Viera: Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge seems like an ok voltron commander. You'll struggle being mono-red, however the 4 artifact requirement isn't really a problem since the deck will heavily lean on artifacts as your voltron source.
You also have a lot of nice doublestrike effects that you can use on your commander to close out the game. You will however stuggle being mono-red, so for removal heavy or more competitive metas you might have a bit of a hard time.
June 26, 2020 3:34 a.m.
Thank you everyone for their input. I can see why there is a bit of heat between this particular card since it does look more like an aristocrat commander than voltron; although, that four equipment requirement is not hard to meet either. The only thing left to do is build two different archetypes: Aristocrat and Voltron and see which tops.
June 26, 2020 6:19 a.m.
Balefire Dragon would be a good one to run in the voltron build (at least), because who doesn't getting those mass death triggers.
June 26, 2020 7:34 a.m.
The only argument you could make is obviously equipment will count as artifacts for him to attack, but at that point, you just saying here is my Woolly Thoctar with flying as my commander, and if you want to destroy an artifact I can't even attack with him.
June 26, 2020 12:13 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #16
enpc: comparing modern bogles to voltron commander is absolutely not apples to oranges. they are the exact same strategy. blue absolutely does not apply pressure better than red. literally the exact opposite. blue is the least aggressive color, red is the most aggressive. thats why control decks have blue and aggro decks have red. your statement of the fragility of auras actually proves my point that hexproof is essential. and i never said there was no way to get around hexproof. but the fact that you mention how opponents will have to adjust their deck to get around it proves my point even more yet again. so in trying to argue "against" hexproof, you actually brought up 2 points in favor of it.
June 26, 2020 1:28 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #17
Perhaps enpc brought up two points in hexproof’s case, but that still doesn’t mean the commander itself needs the keyword written on the card. As long as there’s a way to GIVE said commander hexproof, it is viable for voltron (obviously not every legendary creature that you can give hexproof is a good voltron general, but you get the point).
June 26, 2020 1:49 p.m.
TonyStark9001 you need to chill out, you seem to see yourself as some uncontested authority on Voltron. I hate to break it to you but there's actually some diversity in strategies into how to build a voltron commander. Example, Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin is actually a very powerful voltron commander but has no native protection, this is easily rectified with a few equipment pieces or auras if you prefer.
Viera I was considering building something around Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge as well especially since it made me think of Smaug from the Hobbit. I was thinking artifact voltron as well.
June 26, 2020 4:10 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #19
Massacar: i never said i was an "uncontested authority", but hexproof is just basic common sense. krenko is absolutely not a good voltron commander in any way. mono red does not a good voltron deck make.
June 26, 2020 11:35 p.m.
TonyStark9001: Nobody said that hexproof is bad in voltron. I have a voltron list and I love hexproof effects in it. however it is not the be-all and end-all requirement. Especially since there are so many equipment which can provide you with it.
As for modern bogles, the reason hexproof is so important is due to the nature of modern being a 1v1 format, filled with removal like Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile and Fatal Push. Most decks will run a decent amount of removal, especially in the form of burn (with bolt being one of the best in the format). Bogles needs hexproof as most list run like 12 creatures. Voltron on the other hand is a completely differnt beast. 4 player changes the dynamics of the game and having access to your commander at any point makes an enormous difference. they have overlapping similarities, but are completely different beasts.
As for the fagility of aura proving hexproof, that's not correct. the fragility of auras just proves that as a general rule equipment is better for a voltron list. If anything it's a nail on the coffin of aura based commanders.
I get that red is the aggro colour in MtG, I'm not going to disagree there. However in this particular context, the key elements that red brings are haste and double strike. Except that Rafiq of the Many costs less mana than Uril, meaning that Rafiq without haste stil attacks on the same turn as Uril with haste. And in addition to this, Rafiq innately has double strike, which is one of the big boons that red gives. Unlike Uril however, Rafiq has easy access to unblockable effects whereas Uril still has to rely on trample.
The other part of voltron is that you need to keep tempo up. Rafiq having access to blue means that the deck can keep tempo much better than Uril can. It also has access to counterspells whichj both protect your commander as well as stop other people from combing out under you, which Uril struggles to do. And none of this makes Uril bad, he is still one of the stronger voltron commanders. But you making the claim that hands down is objectively the best becasue of hexproof is not true.
As for mono-red not having a good voltron commander, Godo, Bandit Warlord is considered one of the stronger voltron commanders in the game thanks to Helm of the Host. Hell, I might even say that he's better than Rafiq.
June 27, 2020 1:09 a.m. Edited.
TonyStark9001 says... #21
enpc the fragility of auras absolutely proves hexproof is necessary. auras are only "fragile" if your commander is easily destroyed. so the artifacts (which in most cases will cost you about double the mana) will only be "better" if your opponent is actively removing your commander. and i already stated i NEVER said hexproof is the end all be all of protection. equips giving hexproof is nice, but you have to draw them. rafiq casting less than uril is irrelvant. rafiq actually costs MORE when you inevitably have to cast him a second time. and a third. uril most certainly does not have to "only" rely on trample. there are plenty of ways in naya colors to give uril other evasion or even unblockable (gasp!). having blue does NOT mean rafiq can keep tempo better than uril. not at all.
commander has more removal than modern. sure its a singleton format, but you also have multiple opponents. so if removal makes hexproof crucial in modern, it DEFINITELY makes hexproof crucial in commander. you say "bogles needs hexproof because they only run 12 creatures" when really its the exact opposite. they only run 12 creatures because those creatures have hexproof. although if we wanna be completely accurate, they actually run more than 12, with the extra creatures being Kor Spiritdancer. both decks have the exact same strategy of trying to stick a single creature to the board and then dumping as many buffs as possible. having multiple opponents doesn't change this plan. having constant access to a commander doesn't actually change the plan either, it simply ensures you don't have to rely on luck to get that hexproof creature.
also i never said uril was the best "just" because of hexproof. if hexproof were the only factor in my decision, 7 other creatures would tie with it. the 2 extra power per enchantment goes a long way toward racking up commander damage that rafiq simply cannot match. rafiq also does not "innately" have double strike. it can "gain" double strike IF it attacks alone, but that is not the same as having it innately.
oh and if you look up commander voltron on the mtg wiki, uril tops the list. rafiq is not on the list at all. neither is godo. the ability is nice and all, but doesn't make up for being locked into red.
June 27, 2020 2:54 a.m.
"the fragility of auras absolutely proves hexproof is necessary"
This only matters if you're trying to force auras. If you're primarily focusing on equipment, then it's not an issue.
"which in most cases will cost you about double the mana"
That totally depends on which equipment you're looking to run. The vast majority of good equipment top out at a cost of 3 and most of them then have a cheap equip cost in addition. Plus there are all sorts of "free" equip effects which you would be running in an equipment heavy deck.
"equips giving hexproof is nice, but you have to draw them"
That's what tutors are for - white gives the best equipment tutors in the game and blue can fetch artifacts.
"rafiq actually costs MORE when you inevitably have to cast him a second time"
This is only true if Rafiq dies and Uril doesn't. There are plenty of boardwipes which can easily do away with Uril. And unlike blue who can actually counter a bunch of removal, Uril gets left in the cold.
"having blue does NOT mean rafiq can keep tempo better than uril. not at all."
That's just, like, your opinion man :P Seriously though, you do need to provide something to back up this statement, otherwise it is just your opinion on it, so you can't tout it as fact.
"commander has more removal than modern. sure it's a singleton format, but you also have multiple opponents."
Yes, but that removal is split across 4 players, each focusing on a myriad of different threats and not just aimed at you. At the end of the day, why would I waste removal on a voltron commander if it's attacking one of my opponents? In modern, the amount of removal is still high, however it is a lot more targetted since it's a 1v1 format. And while not every deck runs removal, it's only the fast ones that do that. Most midrange decks will out-removal their commander counterparts, especially if you scale the card count to 100.
"having constant access to a commander doesn't actually change the plan either, it simply ensures you don't have to rely on luck to get that hexproof creature."
It very much does change the build of the deck. Knowing that you have 100% access to your commander (hexproof or not) will drastically change what cards the deck needs to run - you don't need to run threats (in the form of creatures), you can instead run a bunch of buff effects and protection effects in their place. Bogles has to draw one of the creatures and then start enchanting from there. Voltron does not have this problem. Bogles MUST get one of the one CMC creatures down turn 1, because otherwise the deck will start to stuggle due to all of the hand hate and counterspells. Volton doesn't have this problem. Sure, your commander could get killed or countered but you don't lose access to it. In Bogles, you might get a single creature and some buff effects in your opening hand. But if your creature gets turn 1 Thoughtseize'd then you're at the mercy of your deck until you can draw another one.
"the 2 extra power per enchantment goes a long way toward racking up commander damage that rafiq simply cannot match."
This assumption implies that you're using external buff effects on Uril. So sure, an aura covered Uril will do more damage than a Rafig by himself, however I already pointed out that becuase Rafiq doesn't care about what you use on him, a Sigarda's Aid + Colossus Hammer with Rafiq (which costs a total of 2 mana) turns him into lethal damage on the board. And even commanders like Balan, Wandering Knight can take advantage of this - hell, you only need the hammer in Balan's case. Chuck in an O-Naginata and you're golden.
"rafiq also does not "innately" have double strike. it can "gain" double strike IF it attacks alone, but that is not the same as having it innately."
I'll happily concede this one. Innately was the wrong choice of words. However The point that Rafiq can get double-strike without requiring an external source is not something to be overlooked.
"oh and if you look up commander voltron on the mtg wiki, uril tops the list. rafiq is not on the list at all. neither is godo."
If you're going to refer to some list, you should probably link it: MTG Wiki Voltron List.
The list you referenced is in no way ranked, it's merely a cross section of "popular" voltron commanders. And Uril doesn't top the list, he's just first on it. this list also has Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Brisela, Voice of Nightmares on it. It's also completely community editable. I wouldn't be trying to use that list as any kind of discussion point.
At the end of the day, I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on this and while I think this conversation has provided some good points and counterpoints with regards to voltron in general, I think that if it keeps going much longer it will completely derail the original topic, which was about Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge as a voltron commander. I'm not fussed if you want to respond to my comments here (I don't want this to seem like I'm trying to get the last word in and then putting my foot down) however I'm not super keen about discussing this ad infinitum, especially since neither of us have changed our opinions.
Viera: I hope this has provided a bit more insight into some different opinions around voltron and what differnet people's priorities are when it comes to building a deck. Hopefully there is some good, more general knowledge that you can distill from it.
June 27, 2020 9:28 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #23
enpc nice respectful language, there. Really makes the thread more enjoyable to read/participate in.
TonyStark9001 says... #2
the card does nothing for the voltron strategy. first of all, a voltron commander needs hexproof so it doesn't just get targeted with removal and then you lose all the auras attached to it and/or have to re-pay to re-attach any equipment.
as of right now, there are only 8 legendary creatures in the entire game that innately have unconditional hexproof.
June 25, 2020 1:11 a.m.