|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Modern Masters 2017 Edition (MM3)||Uncommon|
|Duel Decks: Ajani vs. Nicol Bolas (DDH)||Uncommon|
|Shards of Alara (ALA)||Uncommon|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
Combos Browse all
Creature — Beast
Woolly Thoctar Discussion
6 days ago
Again I have to emphasize that without something tangible to compare to, I don't know what makes your Soulbond idea work better than the idea of Caretaker. Please provide some tangible ideas of how you would make this mechanic and put it on some creatures.
"First-off, it’s too similar to old Naya."
- Well... you do actually want to make it feel like it came from Naya, don't you?
"But more importantly, it doubles down on what made Naya the least popular shard- that is, that “power 5 or greater” is really tough to secure because most creatures in that range cost four or more mana, which basically disqualifies it from most competitive environments. It’s just too slow to be functional."
- Are you seriously saying that 4+ CMC is non competitive? In what format? Modern, Vintage and Legacy? Sure in most settings hard casting a 4 CMC dumb Beast is likely not something you want to do in those formats, but are we really designing cards for the sole purpose that they should appear in competitive eternal formats? In Standard? No way is that too slow.
I strolled through War of the Spark standard decks on MTGtop8.com. We have a group of Esper Midrange who utilizes fringe amount of Hostage Taker , a bit more uses Elite Guardmage and all uses Teferi, Hero of Dominaria . That's a midrange deck with no efficient ramp access.
And these are just the most present aggro decks and only one of whom utilizes mana ramp. If I go to UR aggro (next in line) they have Arclight Phoenix (although they may not actually cast it) and Crackling Drake
So I think it's wrong to say that 4 CMC cards are non-competitive.
It's also quite possible to make cards with the Caretaker idea that is definitely going to see play in eternal formats. It's just a matter of pushing the cards far enough.
Additionally the border for Naya's threshold doesn't necessarily need to be at 5. It could be at 4 instead to push the mechanic as a baseline a bit more.
But as you said yourself; "Not only that, but both the power # and whether it’s “greater than X” or “less than X” makes it very broad design space, and gives me a lot of good knobs to work with. It’s also the furthest thing I can think of from a parasitic mechanic (which one could argue old Naya’s “power 5 or greater was, given nearly all of the decent power 5+ creatures below 4-5 mana were from Naya at the time, and kinda still today- most are either flip cards or have a serious downside)."
The Power X or greater/lesser than X does grant a certain amount of design space.
I also fail to see how a shifted Soulbond that forces a particular pairing (you said yourself you wanted it to be restrictive pairing) is a better transcending mechanic outside block than a mechanic that have you play lower CMC creatures that can bounce themselves to gain a powerful effect when you play a higher CMC creature.
Thematically, Caretaker plays into the same space as Exploit, except it's the other way around where you first play the mechanic and THEN the enabler, and you only lose tempo and not resources like you do with Exploit - which was a liked mechanic on the Storm Scale.
Based on MTGTop8.com's historic data, the only Soulbond cards who ever made it to competitive eternal formats (here Modern, Legacy, Vintage) are: Deadeye Navigator and Silverblade Paladin . Deadeye is used in 1 Legacy deck back in 2013, and ended up in rank 5-8 out of 8. Silverblade has occurred a few more time, 4 in Modern (3 of whom back in 2012 - 1 year after Modern launch) and 4 in Legacy (mostly in Death & Taxes decks).
Now these data are all taken from one source, granted, but Soulbond as a mechanic doesn't seem like it has shown much competitive potential or at least result. One of the present cards is a combo component. The other is a Double Strike enabler on a body. Double Strike is an incredibly powerful keyword, especially when you can grant it to any creature. The best alternative is Battle Mastery for a permanent Double Strike ability.
Actually looking at it, Spellbreaker Behemoth has 5 entries in Modern but it dies there for him. Woolly Thoctar had 4 in Modern and 2 in Standard. So either the data is just not there for Alara Standard or they made more splashes in Modern than in Standard. Ah and Woolly made 41 entries in Extended (yeah, it was back in those days). I think Naya was kinda overshadowed by the Naya zoo archetype featuring Wild Nacatl .
As for Soulbond's entrance on the Storm scale, MaRo states that the mechanic is very popular but the design space is medium. The template for Soulbond is mostly in P/T upgrades, Evergreen Keywords and occassionally other abilities. Another hindrance is that both paired creatures gets the same effect.
They also say their data may be skewed toward more enfranchised players who are more likely to be competitive. In Standard Soulbond was used quite a lot, especially Wolfir Silverheart , beating Silverblade Paladin but sharing a lot of decks too under Aggro. However Wolfir shows up nowhere in competitive eternal formats.
They haven't made a Storm Scale article about Shards of Alara (or they have hidden it beyond the reach of Google) so where do you get your data on Naya's Power 5 being unpopular with the players? I'm genuinely curious.
The Storm Scale is also a strange way to measure popularity TBH. It kinda pitches the block's mechanics against each other, so if there's a mechanic that overshadows the rest, then you may get a skewed picture compared to considering the mechanics individually. Food for thought I guess.
In conclusion, I don't think a restrictive Soulbond is that much better of a mechanic than what you could do with Caretaker and "Gargantuan". I do however think there's a flavor break on using Soulbond - I don't see the soulbonding between a massive beast and their worshippers. Unless the beasts somehow got way more sentient and actually starts having empathy for their worshippers.
I think you yourself have a dislike of the Naya Power-5 mechanic, so a mechanic that goes somewhat close to what it was is something you dislike. Unless you provide some sauce on the unpopularity of Naya's Power-5, I don't think it's right to say it is disliked as a mechanic. It may not have been a competitively pushed mechanic, but that doesn't mean the mechanic is disliked.
1 week ago
: Destroy target creature. Its controller creates a 5/4 Woolly Thoctar creature token.
A mind gone wild, his potions will cause commotions!
Sorry, I couldn't help making another one. Let's see what you got!
7 months ago
kingquark No problem!
Krosan Grip is great due to the split second clause as it's pretty relevant. Beast Within is generally an amazing card, but because you have access to other colors their are other cards that do it so much better such as Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and Vindicate.
Another card you can maybe run is Orim's Thunder.
Cards I would consider cutting would be: Shamanic Revelation (Too slow), Woolly Thoctar, Voltaic Brawler, Moltensteel Dragon, Herald of Torment, Bloodbraid Elf, and Accorder Paladin (All of them are a bit underwhleming in terms of value and a bit vanilla).
Some adjustment for budget I would consider are: Iroas, God of Victory, Gisela, Blade of Goldknight , Dauntless Escort, Forgotten Ancient, Shalai, Voice of Plenty, Mirror Entity, Taurean Mauler, Hydra Omnivore (Hidden tech, it also does additional damage to the player you chosen!), Tana, the Bloodsower (Also makes additional tokens due to hitting two players!), Urabrask the Hidden, Gahiji, The Honored One, Hero of Bladehold, and Hanweir Garrison.
Hope that gives an idea that could help!
7 months ago
Big smashy Naya decks can be a ton of fun! It kinda depends on what direction you want to take the deck, but if you're looking at the classic 'power 5 or greater matters' theme, here are some suggestions:
Remove: Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Flip: This deck focuses more on casting big creatures, so the likelihood of flipping Chandra is very low. Firemane Angel: Very expensive for her effects. Better creatures and lifegain can be found. Gigantosaurus: Hilarious card, but the 5 green will be super hard to get in a three color deck. Legion Loyalist, Legion Warboss, and Ajani's Welcome: These cards are all geared towards a 'go-wide' playstyle that encourages lots of small creatures. That's not how Naya usually plays, and most of the rest of your deck isn't set up to support them. Light of the Legion, Swiftblade Vindicator, Dawn of Hope, Path of Discovery, Prodigious Growth, Urban Utopia, Bounty of Might, Flower / Flourish, Boros Keyrune, and Selesnya Cluestone: These are all cards that either don't mesh great with the rest of the deck, or are decent, but have cards that can usually do the same thing better.
Big Boyz: Meglonoth: Great power for 6 mana, and can really pump out damage both attacking and blocking each time around the table! Mycoid Shepherd: Pretty decent source of lifegain. Paleoloth: Graveyard recursion. Spearbreaker Behemoth: Gives your important stuff indestructibility! Spellbreaker Behemoth: Can absolutely wreck blue control. Woolly Thoctar: 5/4 for 3. Nuff said. Bull Cerodon: Really solid creature to keep bashing your opponent's with. Godsire: Can be hard to play, but will generate an insane amount of value if it stays in play. Stalking Vengeance: When your stuff dies, so do your opponents! Victory's Herald: massive boost to your field, especially with lifegain.
Mana Ramp: Gruul Signet and Selesnya Signet: Some of the best ramp for three color decks. Drumhunter, Exuberant Firestoker, Sacellum Godspeaker, and Sunseed Nurturer: Can be okay as ramp, while also synergizing with your theme. Mul Daya Channelers: can be either a 5/5, or help you ramp into one. Somberwald Sage, Beastcaller Savant, Birds of Paradise, Channeler Initiate, Chromatic Lantern, Commander's Sphere, Draconic Disciple, Llanowar Elves, Atzocan Seer, and Drover of the Mighty: All permanents with useful ramp abilities, some of which even have a few other potential synergies. Traverse the Ulvenwald, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Elder, Harrow, Journey of Discovery, Gift of Estates, Cultivate, Caravan Vigil, and Collective Voyage: Cards with varying effects that let you search up lands from your library.
Utility: Asceticism: Lots of protection for your board. Anger and Fires of Yavimaya: gives all of your creatures haste. Signal the Clans: Great tutor card for creature based decks. Loxodon Warhammer and Behemoth Sledge: Trample and lifegain on a stick. Domri Rade: Card draw, repeatable fighting, and a crazy ult. Deafening Clarion, Austere Command, Earthquake, Mizzium Mortars, Comet Storm, and Savage Twister: All have the potential to be near one-sided boardwipes.
Lands: Ancient Ziggurat: With a focus on creatures, this card is usually really useful. Command Tower: Should be in every commander deck. Naya Panorama and Jungle Shrine Kessig Wolf Run: Extra damage and trample. Contested Cliffs: Repeatable fighting for your beasts.
There are probably more suggestions I could make, and certainly not all of these cards need to go in. Just some different ideas for you to consider!
7 months ago
9 months ago
But that's part of the of how it works. Also look at the costs you're using as examples though: Woolly Thoctar requires three colors, Terra Stomper requires multiple green mana and Gigantosaurus require five mana all of green. They all kinda need dedicated decks to use them. However, token producers tend to be less mana efficient because you don't have to have a card in hand to activate it. Especially since very few effects could counter a token (there's like 5 or 6 cards that could, but who would use it for a 1/1)?
Also, the examples you used are token producers from sets without high token support, or synergizing token producers. The ravnica sets, especially with Selesnya, tend to have high creature support, which aids token strategies a lot. Those 1/1's created by Dawn of Hope are probably a lot stronger when there's a Benalish Marshal or Trostani Discordant on the field. At least in WOTC's point of view.
Also all the synergistic cards work out, but they either are (generally, since Rhox Faithmender is technically lower) higher mana costs for their synergies or a lot less easy to keep around.
9 months ago
Boza, I like cards that synergize with themselves; for example, Cradle of Vitality, Boon Reflection, and Wound Reflection all require additional cards for their abilities to work, but Archangel of Thune, Rhox Faithmender, and Archfiend of Despair all have syngery with themselves because they do not require other cards for their abilities to function.
MWorl91, I actually completely missed that one card was an instant and the other a sorcery; if I had noticed that, I would not have even needed to ask that question.
Also, power should determine rarity, not the other way around (that would be akin to saying that the rating of a movie determines its content, when it is actually the content that determines the rating).
dbpunk, yes, but, in general, creatures and cards that relate to creatures have been becoming more powerful as time has passed; for example, creatures such as Woolly Thoctar, Terra Stomper, and Gigantosaurus would have been inconceivable in the early days of this game, but apparently are nothing unusual, now, so I would expect cards that generate creature tokens to become more mana-efficinent, with Luminarch Ascension and Ant Queen being excellent examples of that.
1 year ago
"I wish that artifacts lands, entwine, and Phyrexian mana were lower, because I am very fond of them due to their power and versatility."
Yeah, that's why they're rated so high. Because they are so powerful and versatile.
Indestrucible is ok, It's a very Timmy effect which makes newer players feel safe, but generally indestructible stuff is over costed or very vanilla.
I think with equipment, they will always have it to some extent, however the quality of the equipment varies. There are sets which are very equipment heavy (SoM is a perfect example) but a lot of sets have maybe one good equipment and that's it. So it's not so much a questions of "Will we haev equipment" but more "Will the set focus on equipment?"
As for the Alara blocks which bring cascade into the fold, the storm scale is somewhere between a 10 and an 11. Similar to Annihilator, I doubt we will ever see cascade happen in standard again. It's just too much value (as opposed to Annihilator which is big impact becuase everybody hated playing against). I mean, the standard deck of the day was Bloodbraid Elf cascading into Woolly Thoctar.
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