Hey, looks really good. I really like the deck name :) Good job coming up with a clear Dragon strategy and the numbers on the cards you choose are well thought out.

I agree with you, glad you came to the conclusion that Primevals' Glorious Rebirth is not worth building around. The Eldest Reborn is however a great addition with all the self discard happening here. Like Rebirth it too can reanimate something, but also has other uses, disrupts your opponent. The biggest problem with Rebirth is the restriction of needing a legendary creature or Planeswalker to cast it, Reborn doesn't have this restriction.

I'm on the fence about main deck 3x Dragon Egg. It has good interaction with Dragon's Hoard, but that's it. There's a lot of three drops here and I feel that Egg is the least good of the them. Spit is good with all the self discard as well as being a recurrable removal spell. Egg to me seems like a fine sideboard card, but not main deck. For the time being I suggest playtesting without Egg. In it's place consider Lightning Strike? Currently you don't have a two drop removal spell. Post rotation Strike will be a good one for red. Pyromancer and Voice are good two drops for the strategy here, but they aren't the best when against aggro. I think you can trim one of them down to a 3 of to add a fourth Strike.

Here's an example:

• 4x Strike
• 3-4x Voice
• 3-4x Pyromancer


• 4x Hoard
• 4x Spit

You can go either way with Pyromancer or Voice. Pyromancer is the slowest of the self discard, have to wait a whole turn before you can use him to loot once. But he's a body as well as a removal spell later in the game, gives you more options than Voice. Voice however draws you two cards for one loot right away.

If you're choosing to not play Gift of Paradise then I suggest playing more black than green. Black is needed for The Eldest Reborn, can't use Territory to make black mana to cast it. You can however use Territory to make green mana for the Dragons, green is currenly only here for Dragons. Black also gives you some removal options, Cast Down and best of all great sideboard options. Green is still needed here because a lot of the Dragons are green, but black is also needed and I suggest playing more black than green. For the time being you'll want a Swamp in the manabase to help to cast Reborn if you don't have a Hoard in play.

For the manabase later on consider this:

• 8x Mountain
• 4x Swamp
• 2x Forest
• 4x Dragonskull Summit
• 2x Rootbound Crag
• 1x Clifftop Retreat
• 4x Territory

4x Demanding is great, but my last suggestion is cut 1x Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner for a third Verix. Palladia is good, but he's yet another six drop Dragon and will be the hardest Dragon to cast. For these reasons I would play him as a 1 of. Verix is the only mono red four drop Dragon and due to the all the other Dragons being a higher CMC more Verix is better for the mana curve.

Dragons are good now as a budget deck because nice upgrades can be made as you get more cards or funds especially lands. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip is the biggest Dragon upgrade, but also more Sarkhan, Fireblood and 1x Chromium, the Mutable much later on for the sideboard for control matchups. All these cards can really strengthen a Dragon strategy. My advice however is to focus on improving the manabase before making any other real expensive purchases.

multimedia Hey thanks a bunch, really do appreciate the help. I'm working on Gift of Paradise as the two mana part of it makes a land quite powerful and useful if you can land a couple of them, adds two mana for dragons of a color but it helps to get mana quick sometimes ha. I was debating on dragon egg or not as well, I'm actually already planning on replacing that with something and your suggestion definitely was an option amongst them, Lightning Strike for better mana curve as well as ridding creatures before hand and greatly helps for later when dragons are out.

I can take out a palladia definitely, will get Verix in there for sure. My first thoughts on Palladia was if one loses its hexproof then a second one were to take its place with hexproof but in the end its likely not as useful as it would seem overall considering the high cost of it. As for Sarkhan fireblood I'll try putting him up to 2-3x or 3-4x whichever seems more duable although budget wise it will take some time before acquiring but the board on here is what helps for later for when I build a deck of them on paper or so.

Last thing is I could lower the pyromancers down a bit or rid of it although I'd prefer at least 2 or 3 and keep tormenting voice and see if there happens to be something else I can fit in. Otherwise thats all I can think of.

I'll get to work on it, thank you again :).

Hey, sounds good, good luck with finalizing the manabase. You're building another version of this deck with Gift of Paradise? I don't understand what you mean.

Dismissive Pyromancer is a hard card to evaluate. It seems good, but it's slow. I think it's the type of card that looks bad when playtesting here, but will shine in a real game of Magic. I say this because of it's ability to sac itself later on in the game at instant speed to kill an opponent's creature. This ability is strong, a characteristic of a playable good card. It's a bear (two drop, 2/2 creature) who can be just as useful late game as well as early game. Another useful aspect of Pyromancer is it's a creature who your opponent can use a removal spell on, one less removal spell your opponent has to kill a Dragon is good. Leaving Pyromancer alive can be dangerous for your opponent because with him you can technically draw two cards a turn, yes you have to discard one card from your hand, but this actually helps the deck's strategy. It helps you either way, to have your opponent kill Pyromancer or leave him alive to loot, this in my opinion makes him a good card.

Pyromancer is only $0.52 right now I would go ahead and get a playset of him especially since he's a rare. $2 is nothing for playset of a rare if he turns out to be a good card in Standard. Post rotation currently red has a lack good two drops for a midrange strategy, there's Pyromancer, Dark-Dweller Oracle and Wily Goblin (only for mono red), that's it. Post rotation the need for red midrange decks to have a red two drop creature may just push and increase the price of these two drop rares.

multimedia Ah sorry bout that, I meant finding a way to add paradise to this deck when can. I confuse my words sometimes when I think alot ha.

Thanks for the info on Pyromancer, helps, now I'm wondering if its better to cut another one of tormenting voice for 4x pyromancers or drop a land varying as it being 25 at the moment plus 4 dragon hoards which is kind of a bonus add to it although the hoards are pretty good, maybe 3x of those are better than 4x?, Or lastly keep as is with the addition of adding gift of paradise to the deck while possibly cutting something else. Would have to figure which card could be removed for paradise. Considering it has the nice ability for 2 mana, thinking a land or so. Lots of options to choose from.

The Mending of Dominaria might be good

nrwinning sorry for the late reply, I can see how Mending can be useful as if you were to discard lands or so then have that card bring them all back although the only thing is that it costs 5 to play to begin with, and it would take about 8 turns for all its abilities, i have it in mind but not sure if its what I'll be needing. That 5 mana along with dragons hoard and sarkhan (if I can obtain more) will grant me a 6-7 mana dragon by around turn 4 or 5 with enough mana. Thats my input on it but I have it in mind for other cases, still an option. Thanks for the suggestion :)

multimedia Hi again, if I were to get another Sarkhan, Fireblood and obtain a Nicol Bolas, the Ravager  ^Flip at some point what would you recommend I take out in place of having 2x sarkhans and a single bolas or so? I'm kinda stuck at figuring that out. Not sure whether to keep Gift of Paradise in that case or switch them both out for 1x Bolas and 1x more Sarkhan.

Also for a manabase with bolas do I have enough for blue or should I have a land or so for it? I'm thinking Sarkhan, territory, and dragons hoard are already a nice source for it and is good on its own.

Suggestions I appreciate on what to take out for Bolas and another Fireblood as those 2 cards are my next goal and a manabase change or not. Thats all, thank you for any suggestions :)

Hey, very nice if you can get another Sarkhan as well as Bolas :) I see you've added Gift of Paradise. When you get another Sarkhan and Bolas just cut 2x Paradise for them? Sarkhan is better with Dragons than Paradise and it's a three drop. Paradise is pretty much a budget three drop alternative ramp for Dragons, but if you have more Sarkhan you don't need Paradise.

When you get one Bolas consider also adding 2x Sulfur Falls? Like 1x Retreat is here for 1x Palladia, 2x Falls can be here for 1x Bolas. I suggest 2x Falls instead of only one because Bolas is a four drop, you want more chances to make blue mana. This is the power of the red Check lands with lots of Mountains. You can safely play a lot of these Check lands because they work with Mountains and because they don't conflict with having red mana while also increasing the splash color.

I've been playtesting my version of post rotation budget Rakdos Dragons splashing green/white against Mono Green w/ black Midrange and Boros Goblins Aggro. Against these two decks are my current post rotation tests. If a deck I create for post rotation can beat Mono Green and Goblins then I feel it's safe to continue to build and improve it. In my playtesting I've found Dismissive Pyromancer to be a much better two drop than Tormenting Voice. Pyromancer being a body is a big boon over Voice not being one.

Pyromancer can block an opponent's creature and then use his loot or 4 damage to creature ability before he dies in combat. I also really like the mana efficient curve of turn two Pyromancer, turn three Dragon's Hoard tap Hoard to loot with Pyromancer. Pyromancer's ability to loot each turn as long as he's alive, if I want to is very good. I'm also becoming a big fan of Spit Flame especially with Pyromancer's loot and Hoard's ramp which is just enough ramp to make Spit recurable with Verix and Demanding.

In my version I've added more black to the manabase to play Cast Down main deck as well as consistently be able to play The Eldest Reborn. I kept needing more early game two drop creature removal without it I'm getting run over too easily by aggro. Cast Down post rotation looks to be a very good removal spell option and it's good against Mono Green and Goblins. My two drops are 4x Strike, 4x Pyromancer and 3x Cast Down.

multimedia Hey, Thanks for the suggestion on Sulfur Falls and the idea to switch out paradise for those 2 instead, thats what I was thinking at first since I didn't think losing more creatures or reducing something else would be be necessarily a good idea. Will definitely take the suggestion for whenever I can get a Bolas in the future. Since mountain lands are a main in the deck its definitely simpler to have check lands out thanks to those, thus improving the chances further.

My next guess after hearing your playtesting with Tormenting Voice would be to possibly lower that down to 2x instead since it didn't seem to help out as much against aggro and mono-green.

I'm thinking to go with 4x pyromancer's and 2x Tormenting Voice after seeing how that turned up in your case. Your right about him being a body as well as having the ability to damage and use ramp at his disposal as well compared to just discard then draw 2. Seems pyromancer has quite a lot more it can do. Appreciate the playtesting thoughts :). Will revise the deck after I get the one on paper sorted out this week. Thanks again.

multimedia I'm working on making this deck with Bolas in it now and another Sarkhan but I have to wonder, If I were to have 3 sarkhans and 2 Bolas's, these are the options I'm trying to figure out or if you may suggest something better perhaps, would appreciate it alot.

Basically my ideas are:

Should I cut 2x tormenting voice for 1 more bolas and sarkhan (Personally I'd rather keep voice but if its not worth keeping as much I'll accept it)

Should I rid of another dragon and 1 dragon's hoard for another Bolas and Sarkhan (Not bad idea but dragons hoard would be harder to get draws from)

Or should I lower spit flame down to 2 and take off a dragon for bolas and sarkhan.

Thing I love about Dragons is there are so many options, the only problem is, finding the best option ha. Makes it all the more enjoyable, was just wondering your input if I were to get 2 bolas's and 3 sarkhans or if my deck is good enough as it is. Thanks for any advice :)

Hey, your deck is looking good, how's gameplay been? If you can afford to add more Sarkhan and Bolas than for sure do it. In fact if budget is no longer a concern play 4x of each of them, 4x Sarkhan and 4x Bolas :) They are some of the best Dragon cards, possibly the two best for post rotation. Even though both are legendary you want to consistently draw them in games, playing them as 4 ofs gives you this consistency. You also have Pyromancer and Sarkhan who can allow you to discard other copies of Bolas or Sarkhan.

Your ideas for changes are good, nice breakdown. I'll answer each question in order.

1. "Should I cut 2x tormenting voice for 1 more bolas and sarkhan?"
   
   Yes I think it's fine to cut 2x Voice to add 1x more Sarkhan and 1x more Bolas. 4x Pyromancer and 3x Sarkhan is enough draw/discard that Voice is less needed. Pyromancer and Sarkhan can both loot which is what Voice does, but both can be repeatable loot, much more versatile than Voice.


2. "Should I rid of another dragon and 1 dragon's hoard for another Bolas and Sarkhan?"
   
   I don't think you should cut any Hoard. In my opinion it's a big part of the core for Dragons. Hoard and Sarkhan are currently the best three drops for a Dragon strategy. Another option to consider is trimming both Darigaaz and Vaevictis down to 1 ofs, 1x Darigaaz and 1x Vaevictis? When evaluating the best six drop Dragon it's Lathliss because she can make a Dragon token army as well as pump all Dragons including herself. Vaevictis is another six drop and while it's ability is powerful playing too many six plus drops can be problematic.


3. "Or should I lower spit flame down to 2 and take off a dragon for bolas and sarkhan?"
   
   I don't think you should cut any Spit, 3-4x Spit is a good number because of all the loot especially after adding another Sarkhan and another four drop Dragon. The four drop Dragons give you best chances of casting them and then having one red mana left to recur Spit.

multimedia Hi, thanks for the input, I didn't think it was a good idea to cut dragons hoard either, that was probably my least option I'd pick since hoard, same with spit flame are good where their at.

Wrote kind of alot here, hope its not a huge deal ha.

For gameplay I haven't tried it out to much yet since FNM is once a week but otherwise I playtested against some people using the Vampire Deck I enjoyed making and to be honest, its true about aggro being an issue near the start since they keep coming as well as being able to swarm you quick before it gets out of hand and you don't got much to play, however, card draws on the other hand means your always open to a bit more cards than your opponet thanks to card draws and the like. Thats where aggro has its problem and I noticed that after testing it out against aggro. Haven't tested against my knights yet but this friday I'm hoping to see what my 1st setup for this deck was before Bolas and Sarkhan as I haven't earned them yet but its the next goal I have :). Will change the list up for 2x bolas and 3x sarkhan for sure. Eldest reborn works like a charm however later game when you get similar matchups for mid-range, also being able to revive dragons is enjoyable to use as well as its other abilities

I can probably lower vaevictus or/and darigaaz to 1x, I'd likely move darigaaz down due to him being a 7 drop although not a bad card, the mana cost is high on its own but considering the baseline it shouldn't be to bad altogether. If I so happen to come across a bunch of Bolas's over the next month through card packs ha then I'll think about adding more than 2x or 3x of them.

I'll keep Hoard as is, and I'll try to find a way to fit in more Bolas and Sarkhan, at the same time I'm trying not to base the deck around Bolas to much but rather an elder dragon synergy in general if that makes sense. Thats where I was wondering to keep him at 1x, 2x (Preferred) or more based on how it can run. May change varying over time. Same for Sarkhan although I think 3 or 4 of him would be the best number thanks to his mana ability for dragons. In conclusion tormenting voice will be taken out in exchange for another Bolas and Sarkhan. I'll try some playtesting with the updated version and when I can earn all the cards on paper then we'll see if I can attempt a decent 5-0 win or so ha. Thanks very much for the advice again, I'll let you know sometime over the next few weeks how it goes after I obtained these all on paper, (most I have besides a couple) Thanks a bunch, enjoy helping others and building decks yourself :)

You don't need to apologize for writing a ton :) Look at some of my comments for reference, I write mini novels.

We really need a Sweltering Suns replacement in Guilds of Ravnica, Suns is rotating. A spell like this can give Dragons a big advantage in aggro matchups. Pretty sure we'll get some kind of damage too all creatures red spell in the set. We better get something because all current red board wipes are rotating. Goblin Chainwhirler is currently until we get a board wipe is one of my sideboard cards for aggro matchups.

Chainwhirler is a big reason that nonred aggro is not really viable in Standard, he's the anti aggro card. The problem with Chainwhirler in a Dragon deck is we already have our three drops (Sarkhan, Hoard, Spit). However, Sarkhan and Hoard are not as good in aggro matchups because they can't interact with opponent turn three. Against aggro the three drops you play are better if they interact with your opponent.

Turn four is the crucial turn for aggro, your opponent is trying to win this turn therefore what you play turn three needs to slow down your opponent's aggression. You slow aggro down turn three by playing a creature, board wipe or creature removal. Chainwhirler is both of these. Chainwhirler is a viable card with primary red Dragon decks like this one. To play turn three you'll want 20-23 sources of red in the manabase which this deck has. Unclaimed Territory is the not the best land with Chainwhirler, but you can still name Goblin if you need too.

Because of Dragon's Hoard a one drop removal spell is very good to have for aggro matchups. If you can turn three play Hoard and then use it on your turn or opponents to make one mana to cast Shock, this is doing what you want turn three. Because of this Shock is my other sideboard card for aggro matchups. Shock also potentially lets you cast two removal spells turn three, Shock and Lightning Strike. Being able to do this to kill two of your opponent's creatures turn three is huge, getting aggro off your back. In aggro matchups I've been taking out Sarkhan for the very reason that Hoard can make mana to cast a removal spell and Sarkhan can't. I've also been taking out all six and seven drop Dragons, too high of mana costs to risky to potentially draw them against aggro.

Another three drop to consider is for aggro matchups is Dragon Egg. I haven't playtested with it yet because I feel Spit Flame is a better three drop against aggro and it's already in the main deck. I'm a big fan of The Eldest Reborn for post rotation especially against mono green because it can potentially make my opponent have to sacrifice Vine Mare or Vivien Reid.

The current decks I'm building for post rotation, the main decks are designed to be able to beat mono green midrange. I feel this deck is going to be the go to deck at the beginning of new Guilds of Ravnica Standard. Spit Flame is a good removal spell against mono green because it can kill Steel Leaf Champion. If aggro however becomes a bigger problem than mono green then I can see removing Spit from the main deck in favor of Shock and instead sideboard Spit.

multimedia Thanks for the novel part ha. :)

I was thinking about having shock in this deck as well but I'm not to sure what else I'd take out in its place, possible plan was to do like you mentioned earlier with cutting viavictus down to 1x and then I have to debate on whether to keep 4x strike which I generally recommend or I think I may lower viavictus, spit flame down to 3x and maybe shock at 2x perhaps? or I can always remove another dragon to keep 3 of each instant and lightning strike at 4x or all of them at 3x that way I still have the one extra dragon. Definitely something to look into. Good thinking. I think I should consider a sideboard at this point knowing the dawn of mono-green and red aggro possibly coming into play lots again