Screw Siege Rhino
General forum
Posted on Feb. 1, 2015, 3:43 a.m. by alexthegreat38
I know it's probably awesome if you play it, but if you stay away from Abzan as a matter of principle, Siege Rhino is just disgusting. People have probably talked about this before, but the card is clearly overpowered/undercosted, and frankly I just want to complain. Thoughts on the Rhinoceros and why/why not he's too powerful for Standard?
Siege Rhino is very good, but he's not "too powerful for Standard." There are plenty of other decks that exist that can beat a resolved Siege Rhino, or that just ignore it. Plus there are a number of ways each color can deal with it. White has Valorous Stance, End Hostilities, Chained to the Rocks, Banishing Light, Hushwing Gryff, etc. Blue has Reality Shift, Clever Impersonator, Neutralizing Blast, Disdainful Stroke. Black has Hero's Downfall, Crux of Fate, Murderous Cut. Red has Frenzied Goblin, Fated Conflagration, the red strive card from JOU that falters. Green has Arbor Colossus, Nylea, God of the Hunt, and Hornet Queen.
"Too powerful for Standard" is probably an overstatement, but he's a very good card. No doubt about that.
February 1, 2015 4:02 a.m.
The issue here is that 90 percent of the cards you just named are all spells. Siege rhino is just too efficient. It's a six point life swing on resolution, and the five toughness pushes it way over the edge. To make matters worse, you can't chump block to stall for an answer, because it has trample. Other creatures decks cannot compete with it on a creature to creature basis. As such, they need to take a turn off of developing their board to kill the rhino, or if you are unfortunate enough to be playing red , two for one yourself to get rid of it. The only other four mana creature that can compete with it is Polukranos, and even then, if you are on the draw, play polukranos and they kill it and attack, you've basically lost.
It's not that it's too good for standard. It's that the other creature cards currently in standard can't compete with it at all. It's not as oppressive as pack rat, but it's getting damn close.
And to clear this up, making rhino unable to block and trying to outrace them does not count as dealing with it. And as far as hornet queen goes, it's a seven mana spell. It had BETTER be able to deal with a four mana creature. And even still, you're taking three damage or losing four insect tokens.
February 1, 2015 4:36 a.m.
As a follow up, if siege rhino wasn't in the same colors as Hero's downfall and thoughtseize, it might not be as oppressive. But when the decks with the best creature have the best removal in the format and hand disruption spell ever printed available as well, it's just a bad combination and compounds the issue.
February 1, 2015 4:39 a.m.
I smell butthurt. Thragtusk was the same BS and even easier to play
February 1, 2015 4:57 a.m.
Yeh. He's much harder to cast than previous iterations of super value creatures and worse in many ways.
And also most of the cards that answer rhino cost less than him so actually no they don't hinder you - they're amazing. You kill a 4 mana creature with a 2 mana spell and you have 2 mana remaining to get an advantage.
February 1, 2015 5:18 a.m.
AussieBloke says... #8
Granted, one Rhino can be dealt with simply enough, but if it's not countered you still lose 3 they gain 3. Next turn, another Rhino, lose 3 gain 3 respectively. After that, Whip of Erebos makes and appearance, and that first Rhino you killed comes back, lose 3 gain 3 respectively, and your forced to kill a creature that can't survive the turn or take damage somewhere and they gain 3 life. I'm not saying it's too good for standard, but dam it's irritating seeing one across the table.
February 1, 2015 5:39 a.m.
Thragtusk had Restoration Angel at instant speed. Siege Rhino has Whip of Erebos at sorcery speed. You know what a great term for Thragtusk and Siege Rhino type cards is? Metagame.
Not playing them on "principle" is a terrible reason, and probably untrue. You should consider yourself lucky; Thragtusk was $25 dollars during it's heyday. You can get a playset of Rhinos at that price. Hell, Whips are $5 too, while Restoration Angel (which I will concede does still see play) is sitting at $8~ a piece, when they were double that in standard. Stop eating so Much Mcdonald's fries, and either pony up the money for the proper removal, play the silly metagame, or accept that you might just have a bad matchup vs Abzan Whip. The last truely busted card that was printed in standard was Mental Misstep (I guess you could argue Deathrite Shaman, but that Didn't see play in standard). Rhino Isn't even close to as busted as that card is. It's simply an efficient creature. When this gets a ban in eternal formats, then we'll talk.
And if you didn't understand, Mcdonalds = Salty
February 1, 2015 5:47 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
I never have too much problem with Siege Rhino. You know what I have problems with? Mastery of the Unseen. You can flip an Elvish Mystic with it just to gain 8 life. And with Temur Sabertooth, you basically are able to protect ALL of your creatures. It is also a powerhouse in control as it is your win condition, and it is really cheap to play so you can drop it down early and protect it.
And then there's Whisperwood Elemental ... just ugh. You don't even need black anymore. You can just go GW. And I have faced a few before ... it was brutal.
Though I'm still kinda on the fence of the best deck. I think that goes to control. Especially UW control (again). I have not seen one lose yet.
February 1, 2015 5:49 a.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #11
I propose we all play Reaper of the Wilds instead. Easier to cast and splash, same 4/5 body for the same cost, actually beats up Siege Rhino in a one-on-one, can be harder to reove... yeah it's probably not quite as good really, but it's both cheaper and pretty threatening!
February 1, 2015 7:18 a.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #13
@ChiefBell: I think it's a fantastic card! Efficient, difficult to remove if played correctly, offers a nice bonus... scrying everytime my Phytotitans inevitably die is quite fun.
February 1, 2015 7:23 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
Siege Rhino is cool. He's a cool guy. I could see us being friends.
February 1, 2015 8:47 a.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #15
@GlistenerAgent: One thing Siege Rhino has done for the world is justified the existence for the five-color Rhino tribal deck, thanks to him adding black to a tribe that already encompasses green, red, blue and white.
February 1, 2015 9:55 a.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #16
Good discussion guys!
@GoofyFoot: I don't play Abzan because I don't like the colors. I'm a red and blue kind of player, so it's damn hard for me to get rid of it with my Temur deck. I usually need to take an entire turn to Crater's Claws it, or sideboard in Reality Shifts and Disdainful Strokes, but in that case I end up playing a control game early instead of being the aggressor and usually end up losing anyways. It's not that Rhino is too expensive for me, it's just i don't like the colors and I don't want to be playing the same deck that 35% of the competitive metagame is also playing.
@kyuuri117: I agree with you that it wouldn't be so bad if he didn't ALSO just happen to be in the colors that have the best removal and hand disruption, and also happened to get the most wrecked Charm out of all the KTK Charms.
I'm not trying to say it needs to get banned in Standard or anything, it's obviously not bad enough for that. It's just extremely powerful and extremely frustrating to play against, and I kindof wanted to vent about that. Looks like other non-Abzan players are annoyed as well.
February 1, 2015 10:54 a.m.
Well its 4 mana and 3 of those are different colours? what do you expect? Also worth noting that this is a creature block, not a spell block.
February 1, 2015 10:56 a.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #18
Yeah, but Butcher of the Horde is 4 mana that's 3 different colors and it's not nearly as good and not played nearly as often. He only has an immediate board impact if you have creatures to sacrifice to him and even then he's much easier to kill. Savage Knuckleblade is 3 mana that's 3 different colors and isn't nearly as good. Mantis Rider is 3 mana that's 3 different colors and isn't nearly as good.
February 1, 2015 11 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
When you think about it, Mantis Rider, Butcher of the Horde and Savage Knuckleblade are around the same power level. Abzan's just got the better support cards, and that's why you see more Siege Rhino.
If you don't like Rhino, kill it. Kill it with fire.
February 1, 2015 11 a.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #20
@GlistenerAgent: I try. And sometimes succeed. What's really awful is games where they resolve two. I've never won a game against someone who resolved two Siege Rhinos.
February 1, 2015 11:01 a.m.
Both mantis rider and butcher are about on par with him due to flying. They're just in worse colours though. I've faced butcher in modern and even there's he's a threat.
February 1, 2015 11:02 a.m.
First of all, standard has the best mana it's had in quite a while. If casting siege rhino is "difficult" in your deck, your deck is misbuilt.
Second of all, siege rhino is a better card than thragtusk. Thragtusk needed restoration angel to avoid removal spells and trading in combat. Siege rhino only dies permanently to downfall or utter end (as far as single target removal is concerned). Anything else is subject to enchantment removal, costs too much mana, is a two for one in red or is a terrible spell like reality shift.
I don't mind the card much as I play UB control and it just isn't an issue. But the fact remains that it's the best creature in standard. Not just on its own merits, which are good, but because GWB has the best support spells, as mentioned above.
As chief bell stated, it's a creature format. And siege rhino is the best one of them. You either need to try and go under it with pump spells, or go over it with flyers, or play control (or ramp into Ugin now I guess). But standard IS focused on beating the siege rhino deck.
February 1, 2015 2:34 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
Thragtusk left a beast. The only card that could one-for-one it in Standard was Burn + Turn . I'm not sure which card is better, but it's not as obvious as you think it is.
February 1, 2015 2:57 p.m.
Thragtusk was basically impossible to 1 for 1. He was better. Removal was better in those days though.
February 1, 2015 2:59 p.m.
/shrug. I mean , if you could play thragtusk in a siege rhino deck, you would. And if you could have played siege rhino in a thragtusk deck when it was standard legal, you also would.
February 1, 2015 10:15 p.m.
There has to be a best card in every set, that's just the way it works. From thragtusk to supreme verdict/sphinxs revelation to gray merchant. There's always one card that's fantastic. It's sort of natural because power is relative. In a format of Storm Crow, Mist Raven is king etc.
Unforgivn_II says... #2
I'm just glad people are complaining about cards again. We haven't had cards good enough to complain about in standard since Thragtusk/Sphinx's Revelation
February 1, 2015 3:57 a.m.