Why was Griselbrand banned in EDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 20, 2012, 2:53 p.m. by ameuser
Hi All,
So, I understand that if it hits the board its controller can draw a ton of cards at instant speed. You can do that with a lot of different cards in edh. Is the reason for its banning because you can Entomb it to the yard, then recur it turn 2, then draw half the deck and combo out that turn, a la card:Yawgmoth's Bargain? So far I haven't played against anyone who has done that. I've seen Consecrated Sphinx draw a ton of cards in a few turns, and I've played Recurring Insight for 30 before. What makes this an auto-ban?
Ohthenoises says... #3
Um as of june 19th Griselbrand is not banned on the EDH website so I'm not sure where you are getting that from. EDH Rules page
June 20, 2012 2:59 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
The reasons you give are essentially the right ones. This is the official announcement and explanation for the banning of Griselbrand and Sundering Titan : http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12073
June 20, 2012 3 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
@Ohthenoises: For some reason they weren't added to the list in alphabetical order. Look at the last entry in each column and you'll see them.
June 20, 2012 3:03 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #6
DAMMMMMMMIIIIITTTTTT. Well looks like I have a Griselbrand anyone want it for standard? lol
June 20, 2012 3:54 p.m.
The fun aspect of commander is that you are not likely to draw combo's very often so the games tend to be pretty random. Drawing 7 and giving you a huge 7/7 flying lifelinker gives you a really good chance at pulling off some stupid things in a format of 1 of's.
June 20, 2012 5:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises i will take that off your hands im still going to play him in my edh decks :-)
June 20, 2012 6:46 p.m.
Cards that affect Griselbrand before its ability can resolve (off the top of my head): any counterspell card (especially Desertion or dissipate), Commandeer , Sudden Spoiling , Bribery , Linvala, Keeper of Silence , Angel of Jubilation , Knowledge Exploitation (?), Iona, Shield of Emeria , Telemin Performance , card:Jester's Mask or whatever the cards are that look for something and exile it forever, card:Praetor's Grasp, flashing in an Identity Crisis or Persecute , I'll keep thinking about it.
That said, I'm not necessarily against Griselbrand being banned, I just think there are many answers to almost every card in the game. And I like to know why people decide how each particular card that is banned is pretty much infinitely more powerful than every other unbanned card...
June 21, 2012 3:32 a.m.
personally i think cards like Insurrection , Reins of Power and Rite of Replication are worse but thats my meta tap the mana and win at least with Griselbrand you have to find a win con with him lol altho there are pretty much no combo decks in my meta barring my own Sliver Overlord edh deck that i rarely play cuz its cheesy and boring for people at times if it works too well lol
June 21, 2012 4:21 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
@ameuser: Of course, there's an answer to everything. The minute a literally unanswerable card is printed, the whole game is over. The "Doom Blade Guy" argument doesn't really count for anything, especially when we're talking about a card that can be easily made to dodge potential answers (for all the ways creatures can be flopped around and protected) and makes everyone die horribly when it sticks. "Is he good? Alright, then I draw 35 cards, do something ridiculous, and I win."
June 21, 2012 9:24 a.m.
best answer to him IMO is Hide/Seek turn 2!:-P more specfically seek ofc!!:-)
June 21, 2012 10:05 a.m.
@ Rhadamanthus, ya I get it, but I feel like there are other unbanned cards that basically do the same thing in terms of instantly winning i they resolve.
June 21, 2012 11:34 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
And if it turns out Griselbrand isn't really that bad, and he didn't deserve to get banned after all, then I hope his banning gets reversed at some point in the future. Sheldon's announcement also mentions the ongoing testing for Kokusho, the Evening Star , and he's been banned for years, so there's always hope.
June 21, 2012 12:24 p.m.
Well I can see Griselbrand being that bad haha. I'm just wary of bannings is all. But what was that you were saying about Kokusho, the Evening Star ??? I have a dragon deck and have been wanting to play him in it. I don't understand how he's just as broken or more broken than Griselbrand ; indeed, he seems much less powerful. still a very strong card in commander, of course, but not "instant-game-win-by-comboing-out" powerful, as far as I can tell.
June 21, 2012 1:22 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #17
Yeah, Kokusho has been on my personal list of "is this ban really necessary?" for a long time. I think he should get a reprieve. Hell, Worldgorger Dragon got unbanned not too long ago, and he is part of several "instant-game-win-by-comboing-out" plays.
I've gotten the impression over the years that in the beginning, the rationale for bans/unbans in EDH was somewhat dependent on the personal opinions of the rules committee, rather than just being about testing and hard data, but they've gotten a lot better about it recently, especially since WotC partnered with them on the Commander format.
June 21, 2012 1:35 p.m.
I never said Griselbrand was the strongest card in EDH and deserved to be banned over anything else. But he needed to be banned, IMHO. Saying he can be stopped by counterspells is a laughable argument. Cavern of Souls alone (especially in Black, the tutor-color) might just win you the game.
June 22, 2012 12:58 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
@zandl this article talks about how he could hit the field turn 2 and then they would combo out. So the most common play to get him out IS counterspell-able (Exhume ). Cavern of Souls only helps if they hard cast him. So I don't think that is the appropriate card to bring up when it isn't he reason griselbrand got banned.
June 22, 2012 1:15 p.m.
I'm not saying it was the reason, either. If you actually read my post, you'd find that I was simply denouncing the "you-can-counter-it-so-it's-not-so-bad" argument.
I wasn't saying that counters never stop him nor was I saying counters always stop him.
June 22, 2012 3:59 p.m.
Also I listed white, black, and artifact cards (all of which are not counterspells) in addition to noncounterspell blue cards that deal with Griselbrand before its ability can resolve. So quit hatin' yo. Plus the list I made was just from memory; an exhaustive list should find many many more options. Also thanks Ohthenoises for explaining my post.
June 22, 2012 4:12 p.m.
Many of those cards would do very little against anything but Griselbrand . Are you suggesting that those cards should've been added to strictly deal with just him? Because that's what gets cards banned in the first place.
June 22, 2012 4:27 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #23
Yeah, seriously. Every completely bonkers banned card in every format dies to countermagic, but that doesn't solve the core issue of them being too ridiculous to stay legal.
June 22, 2012 4:32 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #24
Okay, before anyone says it, Strip Mine can't be countered. You got me there.
June 22, 2012 4:33 p.m.
Almost every card I listed is one used regularly in commander decks. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is used maindeck and as a general; card:Praetor's Grasp, Bribery (and to some extent Telemin Performance and similar cards are used throughout the Commander community in hundreds of deck types to take advantage of other players' powerful cards;
June 22, 2012 6:12 p.m.
Knowledge Exploitation , Iona, Shield of Emeria , and Sudden Spoiling are also used extensively. I'd hardly say they're ONLY good against Griselbrand . About the only card that's not played as often is card:Jester's Mask and related cards; even then they have their uses. Good gravy zandl, iona and the others being good only against griselbrand? That's a silly notion. Unless of course the tappedout community agrees...
June 22, 2012 6:18 p.m.
I didn't say all. I appreciate you putting words in my mouth, but you can cut it out now. You've made your point. However, Griselbrand is still overpowered, especially in a game that you're already controlling.
June 22, 2012 6:26 p.m.
zandl says...
1
Many of those cards would do very little against anything but Griselbrand. Are you suggesting that those cards should've been added to strictly deal with just him? Because that's what gets cards banned in the first place.
JUNE 22, 2012 4:27 P.M.
All I did was correct your sweeping statement to read "Many of those cards would do MUCH against Griselbrand, and while some may be effective against it, they're less relevant overall and see less play in the general commander community."
I have pretty thick skin plus were on the Internet so it's all good, but please only argue against the parts of my statement/argument that you believe are untrue, instead of lumping everything into a general, ambiguous statement. Specificity is important in debate/forensics, when making a case for or against a particular idea, or in this case, card :-)
Happy future discussing ladies and gentlemen!
June 22, 2012 6:54 p.m.
so the reason that Kokusho, the Evening Star is banned is because in a tournament setting (edh is a casual format but yes they do have tournaments)is because in a tournament you arent playing 1v1 you are playing free for all 8 player. In that setting when you cast kokusho and it becomes everyone else looses 5 life i gain 35 nearly doubling your life total then kill, resurrect, repeat...
September 20, 2012 12:19 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #31
You're a couple months late. Also, Kokusho just got upgraded to "Banned as Commander".
September 20, 2012 12:33 p.m.
Looking at the official MTG web page on commander right now and he is still banned for all EDH use in a tournament...
September 20, 2012 12:39 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #33
As has been mentioned multiple times. Wizards does NOT control the real ban list. The rules committee is a seperate entity.
September 20, 2012 1:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #34
The Wizards page for Commander is for the MTGO version only, and it looks like it hasn't been synched up with the official list, which can be found at http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php
September 20, 2012 3:34 p.m.
I've played in edh tournaments with pods of four mostly...what is this eight-player pod idea you speak of? Haha. That seems like specifically a "combo player edh tournament"
September 20, 2012 4:50 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #36
Yea pretty much is. (Unless you have Hydra Omnivore with Blanchwood Armor and other pumps.) I've played 15 player EDH at my LGS and it's chaos.
September 20, 2012 5:18 p.m.
That seems boring as balls. I ayed in some four-player pods at a store, and there were four-player pods at a GP event I went to a few months ago. Never heard of an 8-50 (because that's what it pretty much is)-player organized tournament haha. Except for now.
September 20, 2012 6:31 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #38
It's boring because it takes FOREVER for it to be your turn again.
zandl says... #2
Griselbrand draws you cards the moment it hits the battlefield, regardless of what your opponents can do by that time. It was mainly banned because it made combo decks stupid.
Of course, since EDH is a casual format at its core, all bannings in the format are mere suggestions. You don't have to follow any of the bannings unless you're playing at a tournament that requires you to.
June 20, 2012 2:58 p.m.