Ancient Grudge vs. Naturalize
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 27, 2013, 9 p.m. by ChiefWannaHacka
So I was sitting here wondering to myself the difference in power between say Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation vs. Disenchant and Naturalize in EDH. Is it the ability to choose artifact or enchantment over the ability to flashback? And is that option more powerful in EDH? Then there are other things I found like Hull Breach and Spring Cleaning and I thought do these have even more reduced power because while theoretically more powerful they are more niche. i.e. the colors of Hull Breach or the relevance of Spring Cleaning (Like against Zur). Anyway, I figured I'd propose the thought to others and gather your thoughts as well.
It also depends if you play one-on-one or multiplayer more often. Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation both have low costs and are great one-on-one. But probably just wait out to overload Vandalblast in multiplayer, for example.
January 27, 2013 9:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
I'll take Disenchant and Naturalize any day. Actually, I'd take card:Nature's Claim first. Flexibility is very important in EDH, and both artifacts and enchantments play a large role in the majority of well-built lists.
January 27, 2013 10:22 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #5
I hear what you're saying. I mean I run Beast Within , Krosan Grip , Return to Dust , Aura Shards , Aura of Silence , and Ancient Grudge , but I came across these other ones while looking through old cards.
Then, I hate name dropping but I'm gonna, Epochalyptik decided to run card:Nature's Claim over Krosan Grip in his BUG deck, with the reasoning that KG was a little too mana intensive for him. While I don't need mana for Counters in a R/W/G deck, my initial thought is to try and shift to 1-drop hate in my colors. But then again I have a lot of other removal in the form of my creatures, Admonition Angel or Terastodon
January 27, 2013 10:29 p.m.
For enchantment removal, opinions on Leave No Trace ?
January 27, 2013 11:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
It's potentially harmful, especially if you're playing the same colors as your opponent(s). I also don't often find myself going up against a large number of enchantments at once, but I play a different breed of EDH, so players in more casual circles may find it useful.
January 27, 2013 11:45 p.m.
That's true... forgot about taking out yours potentially as well...
January 27, 2013 11:49 p.m.
If you're playing self-mill or reanimate, ray and grudge are also good options there. Epoc's EDH deck is hyper-competitive, and I'd venture to say most groups don't play at that level. I wouldn't say the more flexible Disenchant and Naturalize are strictly better, though the flexibility is great. It also depends on how many of such effects you have in your deck. If enchantments are important to the decks you play against, Ray of Revelation costs the same as Beast Within , hits two things, and doesn't give them a creature. The trade-off is of course the flexibility.
January 28, 2013 2:04 a.m.
One for one cards aren't that good in EDH because it is a multiplayer format most the time. So, having things that do something once like Disenchant or Naturalize are actually worse then in other formats. You may not be losing anything against one player but if you are playing a 4 player game, you basically just discarded a card.
Some cards that kill one thing are worth running. Such as Krosan Grip because it can't be responded to. Other cards that draw you cards on top of killing something are also desirable. Creatures that destroy artifacts or enchantments can be better then these as well because they provide a body while removing a problem. Acidic Slime is the prime example of this.
February 2, 2013 5:56 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #12
I completely agree with you HangDoll about creatures, I mean there is a reason Woodfall Primus is a staple. Originally I was looking for everyone's thoughts about the flexibility of Naturalize angainst the double use of Ancient Grudge in 100 card decks. It seems it always comes back to your meta.
I play in a pretty artifact heavy meta, so along with my staple removal Krosan Grip or Aura Shards , I deemed it worth more to hit 2 artifacts over 1 artifact or enchantment and run Ancient Grudge over Naturalize
February 2, 2013 8:08 p.m.
It also depends on your General as well. What do they do? How do they interact with your deck? An example for me would be Dralnu, Lich Lord . He gives cards flashback so I can afford to run cards that otherwise wouldn't be very good in a multiplayer setting. Another Example of this would be Wort, the Raidmother or Riku of Two Reflections . All of these Characters optimize instance and sorceries in some way.
February 2, 2013 8:32 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #14
True, seeing as how my general is Mayael the Anima the reuse of Ancient Grudge is helpful.
February 2, 2013 8:36 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Creatures can be better, but they aren't necessarily always better. In my combo-control deck, I'll take the spell over the creature unless the latter offers some indispensable advantage. In fatty decks, creatures are probably preferable because you're already focused on battlefield presence.
I disagree that one-shot cards are always bad, though. I use card:Nature's Claim instead of Krosan Grip , Naturalize , or any flashback cards because the extremely low mana cost makes it better than any of my other options. The lifegain is irrelevant, and the speed is fantastic. I find that the strength of a card often depends as much on the discernment of the player using it as it does on the text of the card itself.
February 2, 2013 9:13 p.m.
I never said one-shot cards are always bad. I said they aren't that good in EDH. And the reasons why is purely mathematical. The reason I take Krosan Grip over card:Nature's Claim is because it can't be responded to. A card that exiles could also be a good choice, but when you are using these kind of cards you need to use them with caution.
I've had times where I really needed to get rid of something but they could respond to what I was doing either by giving it shroud, hexproof, bouncing it, protection, countering. In these situations it will just be a feel bad moment when you use Nature's Claim to try and get rid of something that Needs to go or you are dead. Not only did you do nothing to get rid of it, you are down a card.
Maybe it isn't that way in your play group. But in mine it is.
February 2, 2013 11:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
I used to run Krosan Grip instead of card:Nature's Claim, but I switched because the lower mana cost made the latter more flexible. Although split second is good, the 2G cost of Krosan Grip often interfered with my other instants. There are plenty of times where card:Nature's Claim could be countered or otherwise rendered ineffective, but I also use the mana I save on its casting cost for countermagic. The G cost also allows me to slip it in unexpectedly; most people don't see it coming.
February 2, 2013 11:06 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #18
Hmmm it never occured to me that simply leaving G open would look harmless, and therefore let you slip the NC past their counters. I kept thinking that I would be using it on my turn. I guess it's cause i'm still getting into playing stuff on others' turns.
February 2, 2013 11:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Even if you have more mana open, it's still sneaky because a spell with such a low cost allows the possibility of other responses in hand. It also affords me the opportunity to both break something and counter something, whereas Krosan Grip would often eat up too much mana and leave me unable to counter a spell afterward.
February 2, 2013 11:22 p.m.
I've played cards for lulz before. I used to have a Thrun, the Last Troll EDH. And I ran Avoid Fate in the deck purely for troll face. I never assume one mana open is harmless.
February 2, 2013 11:23 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #22
I LOVE Avoid Fate !!! I used to troll My brother's white decks with all it's targeted exiling and Oblivion Ring s.
February 2, 2013 11:33 p.m.
It is the most mocking, rude card ever printed. And it is actually worse then something that just says "Target creature gains Hexproof/shroud until end of turn.". But who can resist a card with a guy who is just THAT happy about trolling a mage?
February 2, 2013 11:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Avoid Fate doesn't interact with Oblivion Ring , though.
February 2, 2013 11:56 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #25
lol caught me, I couldn't think of the white enchantment-aura that stops the creature from attacking blocking and using activated abilities so I threw out O-ring.
KevinLS says... #2
It depends on your meta, I think. Enchantments, while traditionally not as great in competitive magic, can be totally awesome in EDH. I personally run a lot of enchantments, not only in my Bruna, Light of Alabaster deck, but others as well. Spring Cleaning is good against Bruna because you can use it on the attack step then block and kill her, but she'll very likely get them back at some point. But as you mentioned, it's great against Zur, as well as Krond. And there are so many relevant enchantments used in non-enchantment themed decks, things like Predatory Urge , True Conviction , Omniscience , Land Tax , you can get a lot of value out of Spring Cleaning if you win the clash, and if you don't it's a Naturalize that gave extra info. Don't underestimate the utility of exile, like Dust to Dust , either.
January 27, 2013 9:24 p.m.