Introduction to Annihilation

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Legality

Format Legality
1v1 Commander Legal
Alchemy Legal
Arena Legal
Block Constructed Legal
Brawl Legal
Canadian Highlander Legal
Casual Legal
Commander / EDH Legal
Commander: Rule 0 Legal
Custom Legal
Duel Commander Legal
Gladiator Legal
Highlander Legal
Historic Legal
Legacy Legal
Leviathan Legal
Limited Legal
Modern Legal
Oathbreaker Legal
Pauper Legal
Pauper Duel Commander Legal
Pauper EDH Legal
Pioneer Legal
Pre-release Legal
Standard Legal
Vintage Legal

Introduction to Annihilation

Sorcery — Lesson

Exile target nonland permanent. Its controller draws a card.

Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor on The 6th Color Nemesis

3 months ago

It's tough in colorless, but you could use a little more interaction. Spatial Contortion can deal with small creatures, and Scour from Existence/Introduction to Annihilation are expensive, but all purpose removal spells. Unstable Obelisk is early ramp that can be cashed in for removal later. I am not saying add all of these, but one or two more forms of interaction might be nice.

Containment Construct could be a great add here since you can cast stuff off of Kozilek's discard ability (I believe timing restrictions still apply though). Bag of Holding is another option that lets you store those cards for later.

If you want to get a little mean, I've seen Winter Orb used quite well in a colorless Eldrazi deck at my LGS. The idea is that orb slows down opposing decks long enough to let you build up your mana base to start casting Eldrazi. Your deck won't be impacted as much since you run a ton of artifact/creature ramp. Throw in Inspiring Statuary (another card that could be good in your deck on its own) and you can play Winter Orb with zero downside.

+1 from me!

seshiro_of_the_orochi on Mono Red Aristocrats

4 months ago

This deck is simply amazing. Great list, and Anax as the commander really surprised me. Very well done!

The few cards I'm not absolutely sold on are Dragon Fodder and its more expensive versions, but I have no fitting idea on what to replace them with.

Some cards you could still consider are those:

Warstorm Surge is a second copy of Terror of the Peaks. Caldera Hellion is a wipe that lets you sacrifice your board and leaves you with a ginormous beatstick. Ryusei, the Falling Star is a fine attacker that also can wipe if you need it. I realize Thermopod is perfect for the list, but Treasonous Ogre would be another great ramp card. I think you'd really want Anger in here, and Introduction to Annihilation is a great way for red decks to deal with Planeswalker. Finally, how about Shifting Shadow for the lols?

Wuzibo on Questioning the Iona Banning

4 months ago

"The only colorless removal i've tried to defend". I've already brought up scour. There are only two colorless removal spells. Introduction to Annihilation and Scour from Existence.

I'd defend running Scour from Existence too. You're paying 2 extra for instant speed and giving nothing in return.

There is nothing else to defend. That's why i haven't defended anything else. So that has no bearing on its feasibility.

It also isn't "to board against one commander." They're cards you can use in literally every game because they can exile any target permanent. Run graveyard hate? why do that when i can run permanent hate that gets the job done and offers more versatility? What actually sounds like the more "unfeasible" strategy, there? Running graveyard hate that is kind of just a dead draw vs a non-graveyard deck, or running a spell that does what the yard hate would do which i can also use to answer any threat on the board? It could always be blue artifacts. They don't care so much about getting stuff out of the graveyard. This answers their Darksteel Forge. This answers an enemy Zurgo Helmsmasher on your turn. This could answer Iona. This could answer emrakul if they were legal in the format. It's even a way to deal with a Bound in Gold or Darksteel Mutation. It's good vs every indestructible commander and every protection from colored commander. It even deals with stax. What's important too is that it has a permanent effect and it is not a permanent. Grafdigger's Cage can be blown up or countered, just like Relic of Progenitus and Rest in Peace. However, the colorless spells can only be countered. There's nothing to blow up. Scour can even deal with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to stop a Sheoldred, the Whispering One, or a Rogue's Passage. Sure ghost quartering them would be much better, but if you drew one and not the other, and that's what's killing you...

You framing this as something people run just to deal with iona is wrong. That would be like saying people only run RIP for the Helm of Obedience combo. That's not true at all.

ZendikariWol on Questioning the Iona Banning

4 months ago

Wuzibo, it sounds like you want to run graveyard hate, not 5-mana spells that exile one creature. Think about the cards you listed: Purphoros, Squee, not only are you trading down on mana, you are also giving them a card back w/ Introduction to Annihilation. I really think you're overestimating it, and even beyond that, the fact that it is, thus far, the only colorless removal spell you've even tried to defend says that running a package of colorless removal to board against one commander is far from feasible.

Wuzibo on Questioning the Iona Banning

4 months ago

ZendikariWol i know it's unlikely to flip the same permanent, but it happens to me.

I guess that Iona is a little oppressive given the scope of what she can affect, not just a whole deck archetype but a whole color regardless of archetype except artifacts. I don't agree that they will be unprepared for iona. That's kind of the idea on deckbuilding. Your deck should be able to respond to a variety of situations, and the sideboard is there to pump it up a little if it can't by taking out some stuff to make it fare a little better against stuff it struggles against.

Introduction to Annihilation and Scour from Existence aren't that bad, and wouldn't be included in a deck purely to hate on Iona. It's included because it's targeted exiling, which is the strongest form of removal in the game. There are usually more efficient removal spells, but, there aren't many more efficient removal spells that get rid of indestructible. Making stuff indestructible is a big part of the game anymore, so a good way around that is a helpful thing to have.

Wuzibo on Questioning the Iona Banning

4 months ago

ZendikariWol

Any removal spell that can give your opponent that same permanent back for free, or an eldrazi titan for free, is not good or efficient. Even if it is successful, it goes back into their library, where they can just draw it again and put it back out, or tutor it out. I have chaos warped leyline of the void only for it to come right back out.

Enchanter's Bane is also not removal, and it at best puts the leyline player on a 10 turn clock. the RIP player will be on a 20 turn clock. That's assuming they don't have any lifegain, which they probably do because they're playing white, and they have plenty of ways to respond to an enchantment like that, so they could kill it before it becomes a problem to them. They start with 40 life. Having to pay 2 per turn cycle to keep me locked down isn't so bad. It's not a bad card, but it doesn't do what red needs, which is get rid of the enchantment. It's not an answer to enchantments. It's a tax on an enchantment. If they can pay the tax, it doesn't really do anything. They can also just get rid of the thing causing the problem for them/taxing them. You can't just Generous Gift a Disenchant. So, really, the options available to red to deal with enchantment based hate pieces are only colorless.

Chaos Warp and Enchanter's Bane are efficient? Compared to what? 2 or 4 extra mana to exile something as opposed to just putting it back in their library and potentially giving them something for free is more efficient. It's commander. There's usually so much mana flying around, you need good effects, not cheap effects. Efficiency is important, but, it actually being a solution to the problem and not just a bandaid is important too. Beast Within, Generous Gift and Anguished Unmaking are more efficient for the same cost as chaos warp. Seal of Cleansing is more efficient in the same card type and for the same cost as Enchanter's Bane. i can't run any of those in mono R, though. Introduction to Annihilation is more efficient since it actually gets rid of it permanently. Destroying something is efficient at about 3 mana. Exiling it is definitely efficient at that level, and is maybe efficient at 5 mana. Shuffling it back into their deck would be efficient at like, 2 or 1 mana, but not at 3. For three mana, it needs to be destroying it. On top of that, it gives them a permanent- and not a generic 3/3 - so it should be cheaper if it was "efficient". Efficiency is effect over cost, not just cost. If it was just cost, Shock would be as efficient as Lightning Bolt.

Snap157

I'm fine with silver bullets. They're good for the format. People should have to build around them. That's why i didn't like the rule change where people couldn't lose access to their commanders by having them shuffled away. That was a silver bullet to people who built a deck overly dependent on the commander. Voltron - the archetype built around commander damage - can build around this by just including some other creatures in the deck and throwing all their voltron equipments on them and winning with regular damage in the event their commander got Condemned or Chaos Warped. Yisan can play around Stranglehold even without removing it by just being a good green deck in the traditional sense, having strong creatures and the ramp to cast them. I build around "everything" to the degree it's possible. My daretti deck could play around graveyard hate by just being a good artifact deck in general. Get some ramp, throw Winter Orb Vedalken Orrery and Unwinding Clock out and just cast stuff on their turns to keep growing your board. Kaalia functioned without Kaalia because i played in a pod with marath who could blow her up in response to me trying to equip her. So I ran enough ramp to just hardcast everything and "Angel, Demon, and Dragon Tribal" is good enough on its own.

Iona is a silver bullet, yes. She's not "insta lose" though. You could still hit her with anything colorless. Her + painter's servant is actually "Insta lose".

fadelightningmm

Yeah that's exactly it. In 2012, this ban would have made sense. Now it just doesn't. There's so much more to do in magic now. There's so many more answers. I know people hate on them, but Scour from Existence and Introduction to Annihilation are two of the most important cards ever released for this format because they now give exile type removal of any permanent to all the colors. It is watering down the color pie a little bit, but, they're expensive enough it doesn't really detract from white. They still get to do it for much cheaper. They're not really better options than most other things, but, to colors that don't have access to those effects, it's huge. It gave every color a way to deal with problematic indestructible stuff, and a way to deal with problematic things that keep coming back.

Wuzibo on Questioning the Iona Banning

5 months ago

plakjekaas

If chaos warp counts as enchantment removal for red, Scour from Existence and Introduction to Annihilation are colorless creatuere removal, so Iona doesn't need a ban. You and the RC are simply ignoring those cards which apparently aren't worth running to deal with a card that they say Single-handedly shuts down the entire deck.

I ignored the part where she can be a commander because she's trash as a commander. It doesn't matter that she can be your commander. She is a lot less oppressive as a commander because then she has to be hardcast. That's why i was ignoring it. It's ridiculous. There's also plenty of enchantment and just general recurrence to bring leyline back.

On top of that, Mycosynth doesn't go away after you kill her. She can come back and will still have no effect. There's plenty of artifact recurral so you can get nevinnyrals or O-stone back. Or put a counter on your o-stone so o-stone doesnt die. Eventually you will tax iona out of existence. She's very expensive when she's a commander, unlike the potentially free leyline. Blow up their rocks and she can't hit the field. After an o-stone, you say she's coming back, but o stone kills their rocks too, so is she actually?

If "it causes an unfun time" is reason to ban something, then stax, land destruction, Grand arbiter augustin the 4th, and sen triplets should be banned too.

Also, at no point did i say that leyline locked me out from playing the game or winning. The deck was more than capable of winning with leyline out. Just like a mono-colored deck is more than capable of winning with iona out. Leyline just locked me out of playing the deck with its main strategy, in the same way as Iona does.

Your argument seems to be "Mono red has answers to Leyline and RIP, therefore, they aren't a problem." So I am saying "Mono-colored has answers to Iona, therefore, she is not a problem." I ask a question, you answer, I show why that answer is no good. Thats how a socratic dialogue works.

I essentially asked "what is "banworthy" that makes iona banned?" and then, when someone gave me a response, I showed why that was no good pointing out counterexamples which would also be banworthy. This is like when meno gave socrates a definition for virtue that was "rule over human beings", which meant it would be virtuous for slaves to rule over their masters, something which meno knew he couldn't justify. In these situations, you give an answer, I give a counterexample, and then you have to justify the counterexamples in a way which does not also justify the example. If you can't, you have to cede that your response is invalid or the conversation is over because you're not rational.

The whole "like a toddler" thing gets you banned from the thread. This is a game. The rules of games are supposed to be enforced fairly. In boxing, for instance, you can't add weight to your gloves because that lets you hit harder. So one boxer uses weighted handwraps and tapes a small heavy steel plated lead disk to his palms to add weight to his hands. The other boxer sees this, calls it out to the ref, and the ref does nothing because "that's weight in the glove, not a weighted glove". So the guy returns to his corner, dumps sand in his gloves for weight and tapes them up so it doesn't run out, and then gets DQ'd. Then he says "this is bullshit, the rules aren't being applied fairly/evenly." They would be absolutely right. I'm doing that. That's not childish. That is clearly delineating the rules, sticking to them, and expecting others to stick to them. Contrast this with what you and the committee are doing by just saying, "no that's different because 'Reasons'." But not being able to give a good reason. To the child, you could explain "no you got your toy taken away because you misbehaved. Your friend did not misbehave, so he should not have his toy taken away." This is not the situation with Iona and Leyline. A better "child with a toy" analogy would be two children who get into a fight but only one child being punished by having his toy taken away. Leyline can do the same things as iona, so if one gets banned for the things it can do, both should be banned. If the argument is that leyline doesn't need a ban because there are responses to it, well, there are responses to Iona too, so Iona does not need a ban.

The only valid reason is the painter's servant unbanning. Thats it. You're wrong for saying anything else, and so was the rules committee. You're contributing nothing to the discussion. The people parroting "Because painter's servant was unbanned." Are doing more for the conversation than you because at least they can justify their comment.

Fritzn I feel that. I kind of did the same thing in reverse. I started running Jester's Cap with copy effects and just banned RIP and Leyline myself, along with everyone else's wincons until they said they'd stop running RIP and Leyline if I took out cap. I like that idea, but i'd like it more in the opposite direction, where there is a small banlist and players are free to add to it in the form of a "house banlist".

fadelightningmm I've chaos warped a leyline only for the person to topdeck leyline and put it right back out. I haven't run it since they changed the rules around it so it doesn't shuffle commanders away anymore. It burned me too many times to be considered valid, and shuffling commanders away was the only thing it really had going for it after that. That was around the time they released Scour from Existence and thats just better so i slotted that in instead, but I understand what you're saying. There's still the argument that if i can do that, then the mono-colored player can use Scour or Introduction to Annihilation to deal with iona, but i guess that's different because "reasons". Enchanter's Bane also isn't really removal. That's like calling Smokestack removal. It can remove stuff, sure, but it might not be any time soon.

I agree completely with it being because of Painter's Servant. I like that answer, since it's the only one that makes sense. I just wish they would have said that instead something that also justifies banning so many other cards. The effect, the rule change would be no different, but i wouldn't mind it.

Gleeock

Thanks, man! Me too.

Wuzibo on Questioning the Iona Banning

5 months ago

Hello.

I took a few year hiatus from the game. One of the last things I did was pick up an Iona, Shield of Emeria for my kaalia deck.

Upon returning to the game, i have learned she has been banned from the format. Ok, fair enough, she is quite strong.

But then I looked up why she was banned. "Because locking mono-colored people out of the game isn't fair/in the spirit of the format/whatever."

Bullshit. Pure bullshit. She should be unbanned or Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace should be banned because they completely lock out a mono-red artifact/graveyard player. I used to play daretti. The whole reason I switched to Kaalia was because of Leyline of the void and Rest in Peace coupled with the fact that mono-red doesn't have enchantment removal, which simply stopped me from playing my deck with no recourse. I played Daretti, Scrap Savant but Feldon of the Third Path, Squee, Goblin Nabob and Squee, the Immortal, and Heiko Yamazaki, the General all are similarly just boned hard with no recourse by it.

"But you can still Introduction to Annihilation, Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, or Scour from Existence it."

Ok, yeah, and the mono-colored player could do that to Iona. Or, they could run Mycosynth Lattice and make everything colorless so she becomes irrelevant. So why is she banned?

There is literally no justification for Iona being banned that doesn't also justify the banning of other cards.

"It's unfun"

So is sire of insanity and being slaverlocked and stax.

"It prevents players from getting to play the game"

So do the enchantments i mentioned above, sire of insanity, and slaverlocking. So does stax.

"It's overpowered"

Yeah, so is everything with annihilator.

At the very least, Leyline of the void should be banned until they print a mono-red enchantment removal card because it makes it so mono-red graveyard decks don't get to actually play their deck and get to only play a half assed gimped version of it, and it can start the game on the board. This is exactly why they said they banned iona. "its not in the spirit of the game to basically lock one mono-colored player out of the game". Except theyre not "locked out". They can still play lands and colorless artifacts and try to find a land based or artifact based answer to Iona. Same as me with my daretti deck when the game started with Leyline of the Void out. Sure, i couldn't use my graveyard stuff, and even if i ulted my commander, it wouldn't do anything, so i might as well not play him, but i can still just hardcast all my artifacts and stuff.. You couldn't cheat out iona turn 1. You can't put RIP out turn 1. Leyline can be on the board turn zero, so there isn't even an argument that the red deck should be winning before leyline hits the field. So like, Iona doesn't actually lock a mono-colored player out of the game. It just feels that way. The same as permanent enchantment based graveyard hate does to mono-red.

Also, Iona should be unbanned, because according to most people mono-white is the worst commander color, so Mono-white needs something strong, or they should follow their reasoning for the ban to its logical conclusion and ban a bunch of other stuff. If they had just banned her for a generic "she's too strong" i would have accepted it, but they didn't. They gave a reason that is the exact reason I found playing Mono-red graveyard artifacts no fun at all.

Just Reban "painter's servant".

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