The State of Modern Dredge?
Modern forum
Posted on May 22, 2016, 8:46 p.m. by Bewmz
Sorry if there is already a thread on this, I couldn't find one so I decided to just post.
There's been a few 4-color dredge lists that have been surfacing in a few tournaments and multiple bigger name streamers are getting on (SaffronOlive did an instant deck tech, and TWoo has been streaming with a variant), mostly because of Prized Amalgam and Insolent Neonate becoming options. My question though is this:
What card choices are actually correct?
I've seen a few that run Bridge from Below, Hedron Crab, Narcomoeba, and Lotleth Troll in some combination of flex slots that all seem really good but there is no clear cut "best" of these as far as I can tell.
Has anyone here had experience with the deck that can weigh in? I'm for sure wanting to get into this deck but I'm holding off until I can get a little more feed back from others who know more about the archetype than I do.
Cheers =P
Very much depends on what kind of dredge you mean. I experiment in all of them and would loosely group them into Rally, Dredgevine, and Loam. I would say Loam is the most reliable in the current meta, however I have had some explosive success with some rally builds. Vine doesn't seem any better or worse than it usually is- it can still spar with top tier, but not consistently enough to warrant serious consideration.
May 22, 2016 9:16 p.m.
@Jay what is Rally? (I'm guessing Rally the Ancestors)
As for my $.02, I personally believe there are four different directions to go. The fourth being the modern version of legacy dredge: Bloodsoaked Champion, Bloodghast, and anything else to get out of the graveyard.
May 22, 2016 9:38 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #5
Zombie Dredge is my favorite, the variant with Rally the Peasants. It is the most explosive.
Overall, I find that Narcomoeba is the best flex spot card. It turns on your Prized Amalgams more frequently, and they can hit for a ton when you Rally the Peasants. It also means you never actually need to take a draw step if you don't want to.
May 22, 2016 10:36 p.m.
Travis Woo has a list that has been putting some crazy results on MTGO. It's a Vengevine list with Hedron Crab for early mill, Insolent Neonate as an early dredge enabler, and Prized Amalgam as a free body. It's very strong, it has a great win-loss ratio.
This is a pretty good example.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LQEU0pexX4
May 22, 2016 10:40 p.m.
lotleth troll is a phenomenal, hard to answer fast clock.... my vote goes to lotleth troll with hedron crab being second as a very consistent dredge enabler.
May 22, 2016 11:07 p.m.
@Jay: It's this almost cross between the legacy Swarm version of dredge using the backbone of Dredgevine as a starting point, much like what beckhr posted a link to and lemmingllama posted about.
@lemmingllama: I've seen some of the decklists, and it seems SO good on paper but I can't find any footage of anyone anywhere playing with it :/ Have you played with or against it at all?
@beckhr: I've watched his games, TWoo is actually one of only two streamers I can find who have put in reps with the deck. The other guy is one of the guys from Rogue Deckbuilders. Unfortunately his name escapes me at this exact moment.
May 22, 2016 11:10 p.m.
I've been testing a bridge dredge list with some great success and explosive plays using Demon of Death's Gate, to date on untap it's been my best performing deck.
The problem is dredge folds so hard to graveyard hate, even things like Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation are conditional to killing relics, rip etc. They can just pop them in response, and rip exiles the yard when it enters. The best dredge can do proactivley is run Disrupting Shoal along with blue dudes/cards like Narcomoeba or Gitaxian Probe.
But the deck and it's variants very often steal game 1s.
May 22, 2016 11:22 p.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #10
iLikeDirt here is the Zombie Dredge version of Woo for modern :)
I just love the sultai version of Dredgevine. So much flavor. However I have the feeling the deck is indeed too weak against GY hate. I've never played it or against it but since it's all based on GY recursion it sounds like any Rest in Peace / Grafdigger's Cage / Relic of Progenitus simply wrecks the deck...
May 23, 2016 5:11 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #11
@iLikeDirt I've only played the lists in person, so I can't give you an exact 75 or any coverage. It was fairly stock for the base cards, then was running Narcomoeba, Rally the Peasants, and Goblin Lore
May 23, 2016 8:17 a.m.
I use an alternate version of dredge which is slower than the vengevine version but goes over the top and can just hit for game out of nowhere. Thanks for making this thread because I enjoy this archtype and would like to know the best versions we can have. My biggest thing is after sideboard what are the options against GY hate and so I've done a more delve option/transformation since the GD Cages we can still dredge and the relics/rest in peace we can play around but they can't respond to the delve casting.
May 24, 2016 2:42 p.m.
....sorry you can find my deck in my name and profile link.
May 24, 2016 2:42 p.m.
....sorry you can find my deck in my name and profile link.
May 24, 2016 2:42 p.m.
Thanks guys for all the responses!
@Caligula: I really, REALLY want Bridge from Below to be good in modern as a former Legacy dredge player, and your list looks interesting. I think for it to be even semi viable we need a reusable sac outlet like Viscera Seer which sounds a little more trouble than it might be worth :/
@frusciante7: That seems like a fairly old list (especially given that Travis was fired from CFB a while back and that the list doesn't include Golgari Grave-Troll), but an interesting one to look at. I'm well aware that Dredge gets kicked in by yard hate pretty well, but it's still something that can be played through unlike Affinity vs Stony Silence =P
@lemmingllama: Fair, I'm coming to the conclusion that Narcomoeba is by far the likely best flex slot for the deck now that Prized Amalgam exists. Also, Goblin Lore? I would think that Burning Inquiry would be a better choice since it's one mana less. Is the extra card worth the one more generic?
May 24, 2016 7:06 p.m.
Yeah the only reason I went with Demon was to simulate a big threat similar to dread return with its alternate costs while giving us tokens to swing wide.
May 24, 2016 7:17 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #18
@iLikeDirt I believe the reasoning was to have spells that you can cast that don't get hit by Chalice of the Void. Burning Inquiry is likely just as good.
May 25, 2016 6:34 a.m.
I have a dredgevine deck (Recursion theory - Vengevine edition) that I regularly play at FNM with good results, even winning through RIPs.
I am also in the process of constructing a deck that focuses on Bridge from Below Modern BfB. So far, it seems good.
May 25, 2016 7:08 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #20
How about Greater Gargadon instead of Viscera seer? Virtually uncounterable (at least to get the relevant effect), cannot really be targeted when suspended, (but just watch, first matchup, BAM opponent packing 4 Venser's Diffusion's hahaha) and also has the possibility of becoming a 9/7 fatty that can bust hus. Also, same CMC (unfortunately without the scry 1), and as an added bonus it applies pressure to your opponent. Turn 1 drop, turn 2 down to 9 counters, turn 3 you may be able to sac something to trigger a Bridge from Below, bringing it to 7, then turn 4, it could easily be down to 5 counters. At that point, the pressure applied by this 1 CMC dude is enough to start worrying about. Also keep in mind you could be beating face with zombie tokens and Rally in the meanwhile... I think the non disruptable nature puts this slightly over seer in this particular deck setting.
May 25, 2016 9:42 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #21
How about Greater Gargadon instead of Viscera seer? Virtually uncounterable (at least to get the relevant effect), cannot really be targeted when suspended, (but just watch, first matchup, BAM opponent packing 4 Venser's Diffusion's hahaha) and also has the possibility of becoming a 9/7 fatty that can bust hus. Also, same CMC (unfortunately without the scry 1), and as an added bonus it applies pressure to your opponent. Turn 1 drop, turn 2 down to 9 counters, turn 3 you may be able to sac something to trigger a Bridge from Below, bringing it to 7, then turn 4, it could easily be down to 5 counters. At that point, the pressure applied by this 1 CMC dude is enough to start worrying about. Also keep in mind you could be beating face with zombie tokens and Rally in the meanwhile... I think the non disruptable nature puts this slightly over seer in this particular deck setting.
May 25, 2016 9:43 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #22
How about Greater Gargadon instead of Viscera seer? Virtually uncounterable (at least to get the relevant effect), cannot really be targeted when suspended, (but just watch, first matchup, BAM opponent packing 4 Venser's Diffusion's hahaha) and also has the possibility of becoming a 9/7 fatty that can bust hus. Also, same CMC (unfortunately without the scry 1), and as an added bonus it applies pressure to your opponent. Turn 1 drop, turn 2 down to 9 counters, turn 3 you may be able to sac something to trigger a Bridge from Below, bringing it to 7, then turn 4, it could easily be down to 5 counters. At that point, the pressure applied by this 1 CMC dude is enough to start worrying about. Also keep in mind you could be beating face with zombie tokens and Rally in the meanwhile... I think the non disruptable nature puts this slightly over seer in this particular deck setting.
May 25, 2016 9:43 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #23
How about Greater Gargadon instead of Viscera seer? Virtually uncounterable (at least to get the relevant effect), cannot really be targeted when suspended, (but just watch, first matchup, BAM opponent packing 4 Venser's Diffusion's hahaha) and also has the possibility of becoming a 9/7 fatty that can bust hus. Also, same CMC (unfortunately without the scry 1), and as an added bonus it applies pressure to your opponent. Turn 1 drop, turn 2 down to 9 counters, turn 3 you may be able to sac something to trigger a Bridge from Below, bringing it to 7, then turn 4, it could easily be down to 5 counters. At that point, the pressure applied by this 1 CMC dude is enough to start worrying about. Also keep in mind you could be beating face with zombie tokens and Rally in the meanwhile... I think the non disruptable nature puts this slightly over seer in this particular deck setting.
May 25, 2016 9:44 a.m.
@lemmingllama: That makes a lot more sense if you're in a field with a bunch of Chalice of the Void running around, I'll keep that in mind if that becomes an issue.
@Adameus2012: Since posting I've actually stumbled on a couple lists using that to make bridge viable. It's definitely better than Seer, my issue is that it still lacks the haste enabler that legacy does because of the lack of Dread Return. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Dread Return in the format, but I have a really hard time imagining bridge being good enough without it or at least better than some of the other variants floating around. :/
May 25, 2016 1:08 p.m.
I've made a few changes to my build today so just wanted to post an updated version. Hope I linked it right.
May 25, 2016 1:22 p.m.
Adameus2012 says... #27
Madrush Cyclops seems the best to me as you can put it back on top of library with a Golgari Thug.
May 25, 2016 1:59 p.m.
@Adameus2012: Doesn't actually seem too bad of a substitute. You really only need that haste effect for a singular turn to make that version of Bridge from Below to do it's thing since assembling the critical mass isn't too hard.
@Huck101: That's a lot more refined looking, keep it up :]
@Boza: I like that Bridge list, it seems pretty solid for FNM settings and like a blast to play.
I THINK I've found a starting point that I like. I took a crack at a Rally the Peasants that I think is pretty good but definitely needs a lot more tuning and testing.
Dig Up, Unearth, Repeat
Modern*
1 VIEW
May 25, 2016 10:42 p.m.
Adameus2012 says... #29
There is certainly cheaper stuff to do it, but as far as consistency goes I personally couldn't think of a way that had less inherent flaws, or were just simply too small of an effect to truly be useful.
May 26, 2016 1:11 a.m.
Been meaning to try it with Purphoros, God of the Forge. Not haste, but pretty damn close.
May 26, 2016 6:50 a.m.
That actually seems incredibly worth testing Jay. Not quite on the level of Dread Return + Flame-Kin Zealot levels of game ending obviously, but certainly competitive enough to actually make Bridge from Below Dredge a real deck in larger tournaments. I'll have to do some brewing later =P
May 26, 2016 10:16 p.m.
Here's what I'm working with:
Straight outta Compost
Modern
SCORE: 1 | 90 VIEWS
Very all-in strategy. Of course maining decays would be great, but this is trying to just pump out the dredge win asap.
Adameus2012 says... #2
I am commenting on this simply so when you get your answer, I will also get it.
May 22, 2016 9:15 p.m.