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For Inferno Titans, I have some sideboard options: 2x extra Blunt the Assault, 1x Elixir of Immortality, and 3x Witchbane Orb. Or I can Beast Within or Tumble Magnet them. So I have a -little- breathing room.
But truthfully, I don't expect to win much against burn. Red Deck Wins, for example, is probably not going to be losing much to me, you know? Too fast, and too many options for getting around combat damage. Shrine of Burning Rage = ouch. Again, I have Witchbane Orb to try to fall back on, but there isn't a huge amount I can do.
Any suggestions for matchups aginst red? I don't have many delusions, but if there's something that will help me live a little longer against them, I'll gladly listen.
Good idea on the Tree, I'll put a couple on the sideboard. I've also increased my main deck Blunt the Assault count from 2x to 4x, so maybe that'll help a little.
Thanks for the suggestions!
I know it's a 4 drop, but you gotta have 4 Blunt the Assault, the life gain is great. A Karn Liberated solves alot of problems and is often time unseen coming in advance. Noxious Revival will bring any card in your graveyard back as next card you draw, which is great. Blue Sun's Zenith on your opponent + Sphinx + Erasure = 3x power.
The threat of red burn should be possible to avoid if you could lock down or disrupt their mana in some way. Since your wincon can be pulled off on a small manabase it shouldn't affect you nearly as bad. Not sure there's a good way of doing that in standard though.
I shouldn't have to worry too much about Gravecrawlers or anything with undying, because I plan to never interact with the opponent's creatures, ever. Ignore them until I die, that's my motto.
For graveyard hate, I'm currently running Surgical Extraction because it does two different things for me: it can kill entire playsets of Mana Leak and the like, which are bad news when I'm trying to cast an absolutely crucial Fog, and it has the potential to thin the opponent's deck by a small margin, so there are fewer cards to mill.
My original list did include Grafdigger's Cage, because that card IS fantastic. I may end up including it if the metagame calls for it, but right now I'm just really concerned with rooting out enemy countermagic.
Dude, Sword of War and Peace... Perfect with all of the card draw against RDW. You gain life, they lose extra life.
Garruk Relentless/Veil Cursed could give you some extra removal and tokens for blockers to save a fog or two.
Acidic Slime is a great toolbox card and a titan killer (great to get rid of those Shrines...)
Sword of Body and Mind gives you extra mill AND wolf tokens.
Mindshrieker and/or Trepanation Blade wouldn't be a bad idea either...
Hilarious though! +1
My current meta is fairly aggro-intensive at the moment, so I will be keeping the Blasphemous Act s main deck for now. I can switch them out for game 2s against control decks and the like, of course.
Also, I prefer the Act to smaller fare like Rolling Temblor and Whipflare, simply because it kills a much wider variety of creatures. For smaller creature hordes, I'll just keep Fogging away, but I like the option of a total board wipe if my opponent's army is starting to get out of hand and I'm running out of fog effects.
Since Rites of Flourishing will be providing both myself and my opponent with lots and lots of cards, using a Blasphemous Act to take out a dozen or so threats at once should be fairly commonplace, generating some pretty massive card advantage.
The fact that the Act is such a big, meaty sorcery means I will be more likely to hold it back for as long as possible, which not only increases the amount of potential card advantage, but also increases the likelihood that I'll draw one of the 4 red sources in the deck. And using Snapcaster Mage on one in an emergency shouldn't be too difficult to pull off either.
You need a graveyard recurring effect in case a game goes longer than you want it to, or just vs. ub drownyard decks.
Elixir of Immortality is cheap enough that you can sandbag it or play it turn 1 vs. aggro, Archangel's Light you'd have to splash for, and the lifegain wouldn't really be relevant vs. the matches returning your graveyard would be important in.
Praetor's Counsel costs roughly 1 billion, so is vulnerable to counters, but you can flash it back with snapcasters at last resort, and if you want a big-hand effect play Venser's Journal. That card is truly frustrating for aggro.
@Goldenpineapple I should totally grab a copy of Praetor's Counsel, that is an excellent suggestion. I'll try to update my deck list when I get my hands on one. I've got two copies of Elixir of Immortality on the sideboard already. I figured they'd help me against both mill and a little against burn (hooray for small amounts of lifegain!).
@aeonstoremyliver The problem with swords is that I'm barely running any creatures, and don't really have any plans to ever actually use my combat step. I mean, if I'm in a situation where I can win by attacking with my Consecrated Sphinx for 5 turns, I will, but it's not a mainline strategy. With only six creatures total, I'm just afraid it would mostly be a dead draw.
I feel like any aggressive strategy that includes counterspells (like Delver) or burn (like RDW) is going to pretty much destroy me, even with me siding in hate. It's just a bad matchup. Unfortunately, this comprises a lot of decks, haha. But I should have a lot of fun against pure aggro and maybe even some control decks. I mostly just want to do something weird and unexpected, regardless of win percentage.
Still, though. Might as well try to make it as competitive as possible.
Considering that many pro's are strong believers in the philosophy of fire I don't recommend lambasting red mages as unintelligent, especially if you happen to be losing to the deck.
Praetor's Counsel Is far too expensive to be using, especially as the decks where you would need it against are going to be beating you well before you can cast it.
For you maybe you should simply maindeck Surgical Extraction as that can rip counters and key burn spells from a deck, drastically slowing your opponent.
Oh, I wasn't lambasting red mages at ALL. I was speaking as an in-character blue-green mage! I'm speaking purely from a flavor perspective, where an actual in-game blue mage would probably talk about an actual in-game red mage in that way, due to the opposing intelligence vs. emotion philosophies of the two colors.
I mention it because it's a strength of red decks. They don't have to do all their damage from combat, and no matter what ridiculous tomfoolery some random blue mage is trying to do to lock down the board, the red mage can just shake his or her head and Fireball them to death.
I thought I was pretty clear, almost obnoxiously so, that this deck isn't meant to win any sort of "professional" competition. It's an FNM troll deck! For fun! I have no delusions about winning!
As far as Praetor's Counsel is concerned, it would only be a late game card, it would only be a one-of, it would only be sided in against opposing mill (which means pretty much never), and it would to be easy to cast considering all the copies of Rites of Flourishing that would be floating around. But think about how fun it would be, holding 30 cards!
I'll do what you suggested re: countermagic when sideboarding, but I probably won't main deck my Negates. It would too often be a dead draw when I'd rather have a fog or a finisher.
@azmodai2 Clarified my position on red mages above, in the description.
Also: white mages smell funny. Clearly I am the most serious person.
Also also: I actually really agree with you regarding Surgical Extraction. I'm going to think on it, and will try to fit it into the main deck later tonight. Thanks for the suggestion!
I initially had Thought Scour, but the mill is pretty small and I'd personally rather dig three cards deep to find whatever crucial card I need. Once the enchantment combo is set up, milling is not a problem. But you definitely want to get those pieces out, as well as having fogs when you need them.
I think it's mostly personal preference between it and Ponder, to be honest.
@godly111 the only card in my deck that cares about undying is Blasphemous Act , and even then it isn't that big of a deal. Otherwise I just Fog everything. I'm using Surgical Extraction as my graveyard hate instead, as it can delete entire playsets of cards that might give me trouble, thinning the opponents' deck in the process.
Grafdigger's Cage is amazing, for sure, but I feel the Extractions are more suited to what this deck is trying to accomplish.
True, but run it against my The Other Pod deck and you will see how important it is to shut down a persons graveyard or library. Control what they draw or dont draw and you can minimize their removal of your enchantments. A person runs a similar deck in my area, and I have decked them.
I think you need 3x Jace. He's amazing for this deck. With Jace's Erasure, you'll mill your opponent 3 a turn. Not bad at all. Not only that, but he's basically your only win-con. Sure, you MIGHT be able to mill your opponent with your various other means, but I think he's pretty much a win against any combat heavy deck.
No love for Jace's Archivist? I think he could speed up the mill by at least a few turns with all of the card draw you are sporting. He is especially potent with Jace's Erasure and he can turn any bounce effect in to solid removal (since they are discarding their hand). The only down side is that hand you get in return can be unpredictable.
I know the idea is to be relatively creature-less but Undead Alchemist does exactly what your deck wants to do. Even if you don't attack with it, it turns your mill spells into token generators, creating creatures to block or continue to mill your opponent.
Lots of suggestions in the past 19 hours. I'd like to respond to each, but I don't -yet- have the cards/experience to answer each as fully as I'd like. The current posted deck list above is constructed only of cards I now have access to. The cards in the maybeboard and each of your above suggestions are things I would like to test/purchase first, but don't have the time or resources to do so before tomorrow night's FNM.
After tomorrow, when I get to see what this deck actually does in real, paper life, I'll know what its weaknesses are and we can maybe work together to cover up the vulnerable points. I could also try to get my hands on some of these other cards.
Jace's Archivist, in particular, is a creature I'd love to run through the paces, but was shy to include him without seeing how the rest of the deck worked together first.
I will definitely be making a tournament report tomorrow, along with any news on whether or not I'm banned from the store for turbofogging everyone to annoyance. I anticipate the latter for sure, ha.
Seems fun!If it were me, I'd probably run some spot removal like Incinerate (maybe even Silent Departure or Vapor Snag), but I can see the argument against that. It's honestly a little cool that your using mill as a win-con as opposed to using it to just fill your 'yard, most decks have been using that stuff to fuel their flashback spells instead of killing opponents since Innistrad hit.
This is quite similar to my Christmas Spirit deck I've been playing for a while, except I run Psychosis Crawler and Laboratory Maniac as win cons. I can vouch for Laboratory Maniac, as the insane amount of cards you can draw with a simple Consecrated Sphinx and Rites of Flourishing combo can often mill yourself.
I've had some experience with some of the cards previously mentioned, and find that Praetor's Counsel is just excellent, for the demoralising effect if nothing else. Many a time I've sat laughing as I Fog my opponents turn after turn, until eventually their cries of 'Surely you've run out of fogs by now!' are met with 'Now I'm going to reclaim all of my fogs!' trolollololollolol
Also, Venser's Journal is great if you can survive long enough to get it out, and Autumn's Veil is truly excellent against control decks, but like you I really struggle against RDW and have found no way around this for now other than to pray for Witchbane Orb. I've also tried Wall of Tanglecord and Flashfreeze, with limited success.
I reccomend you fit another jace in here somehow. Jace himself is the master of milling. it can also be incredibly fruitful to save one of your fogs as your opponents swing all out at jace and you let them, only to play another jace the next turn and procede to keep milling 10 at a time for free.
I'm going to take your advice and add that third Jace, Memory Adept. Verily, he is good.
After playing last night, I realize I need as much Ponder as I can get for the filtered draws, and the Surgical Extractions are invaluable when your opponent has just one real answer against you (to be milled and then exiled away).
To make room for these things, I've eliminated the combo-tastic Jace's Erasure, because while it is very, very nice when I have all my combo pieces out, that is a situation that doesn't always happen, and in those situations, it's kind of a dead draw.
I may change my mind though. Thoughts? Is Jace's Erasure worth it?
Why don't you just plain old Naturalize the Shrine of Burning Rage, or even better, Nature's Claim it away since you are going for mill. Other than the orb, I see no other way to deal with RDW, sadly. You should have 4x of them, since it a must against RDW (otherwise, you lose) and since RDW can destroy it easily.Just my 5 cents =)
Agreed on +1 Witchbane Orb. Done and done.
I'm running Beast Within rather than Naturalize, because there's a chance the problem permanent I so desperately need to destroy might be a creature with nasty abilities or a planeswalker, and that's the kind of versatility for which I'm okay paying 1 extra mana and a 3/3 beast token.
Hey buddy, I had another idea vs RDW. It's a bit pants, but just thought I'd throw it out there. Try not to laugh... Brindle Boar. No, I said don't laugh! Think about it... at worst it's 3 mana for 4 life. At best it's a chump blocker on top of that. Another thought was Bountiful Harvest, since you'll likely be rolling in lands thanks to rites. Well, both ideas suck really, but at least I'm trying!
I do not see how Turbo Fog is playable, to be honest. A guy in my meta plays it, and I don't see how it wins. Jace Memory adept isn't a reliable win condition. So... Yeah, I don't know. I'd rather just play, y'know, an actual control deck. Not... FOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGFOGMILL
@EnjoySaeli I went 3-2 at FNM a couple of nights ago. Not a great record, obviously, but I just want to show you that it can, in fact win. Milling 10 cards a turn when you've got a full hand of Fogs really does add up.
If you think of their library as their life total (less than 60, after drawing opening hands), then Jace's +0 ability effectively does just under 4 (1/6th of life total) unblockable damage each turn. And if they're drawing 2 or 3 cards a turn, you're Surgical Extraction-ing entire playsets from their library, and fogging any attack they make, it really won't take that long to mill them out.
I went 4-0-1 first time I ran my turbo fog. went 3-1-1 this week with it. it's not that hard if you play smart. now granted, i also use Karn Liberated to restart with my opponent's stuff (or one of my Jace, Memory Adept) including one time restarting with my opponent's Gideon Jura and Geist-Honored Monk
People around my area both love and hate playing against me when I play it. Hell it's the first question that they ask when they see me at FNM. Knowing they have the time to set up whatever the hell their deck is designed to do vs the knowledge that I've got 16 Fog effects, plus all sorts of other fun things... it's actually very exciting despite the bad weather.
What Nephilim said has been my experience, having played this deck all of once. Now if I keep bringing it, 10 weeks in a row, I could see people getting annoyed. But I'll probably use it a bit randomly, just to keep people guessing.
I've still got a perfectly viable elf deck that is nowhere close to boring me, so it's good to have options.
Sphinxes reinstated for good behavior.
@mmazach I chose red over white simply because Blasphemous Act is easier to cast then the double-white Day of Judgment, though to be honest I think DoJ is just dandy in this deck. Stonehorn Dignitary is also a good option. I mostly just went red out of preference. I think either splash color is fine here.
Along those same lines, black might even be a decent option for milling purposes. Black Sun's Zenith would be your board wipe, and you could use things like Memoricide and Surgical Extraction (which I have) to delete things from your opponent's library. The colors in this deck are really pretty negotiable, after blue and green.
Its funny I saw some person running a very similar deck, he used white instead of red for day of judgement and Phyrexian Unlife, he also had some life-gaining effects, like Elixir of Immortality and Pristine Talisman but they didn't use Moonmist, Blunt the Assault, and Rites of Flourishing. I witnessed him winning an opponent's spirit deck. I asked him if he got the idea from a website, but he said he thought of it himself.
Turbofog is an archetype that's been around for a while (example: http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/191), so it isn't really all that original. But now that there's a fourth green fog in standard (thanks, Clinging Mists), it's no surprise that it's popping up here and there among more experimental types.
I'm an old player, so I remember the old archetypes :D and while yes Venser + Stonehorn is virtually similar and has been run a bit lately (at least in my meda in UW Control decks), the joy of 16 fogs (18 in mine if you count Gideon), 4 noxious revivals, and in my case two doj... gets silly fast :) Hell, I've even thought of adding Charmbreaker Devils to keep getting the fogs back. Oh and Blightsteel Colossus as an alternate win con that NO ONE sees coming in a turbo fog deck is priceless (which is why I also run Karn Liberated)
Oh my gods, Charmbreaker Devils! I...I want to run these. I--. Yes indeed.
Dies horrifically to removal, but so does Consecrated Sphinx. The Sphinx's enemy draw step ability triggers sooner than the Devils' your next upkeep ability though, so sorcery-speed removal would kill the devils without you ever getting to net any card advantage.
And both are 6-drops. I'm going to have to think about this for--
I applaud you good sir. I would probably also Update the chat to somewhat clear up this 80+ posts so its easier read so long as there arent still applicable suggestions.
But, even if there is only 2 or 3, I would definately add back in Jace's Erasure. Its such a hard to deal with card pre-side board and even if you only get 1 out, its still that extra mill a turn. It would just make things faster.
In my opinion Jace's Erasure is worth it. Even as a 2-3 of. A turn 2 erasure, turn 3 rite, (turn 4 looking pretty) turn 5 jace is the stupidest play you can do. And by stupid I mean the best. I use it in my (somewhat less than stellar) deck:blue-green-standard-mill-fog. Regardless I still think this deck is awesome and taking it to an FNM gets credit from me.
@wizard924- I've beaten Kessig on a consistent basis. Hell, this FNM I was at 1 life and 9 infect but he couldn't get the job done before I milled him out. In decks like this, think of life (and poison) as just another resource to stall with. It kills me to watch people Fog against four or even six points of damage.
@wizard924 The only card werewolves really ruin is Moonmist, which is more annoying than game breaking for game 1. After game 1, you just sideboard in something to replace the Moonmists, perhaps Witchbane Orbs to prevent the damage caused by Ravager of the Fells flipping or something unexpected like a Tovolar's Magehunter.
I don't see working well. My usual strategy is to tank the first few hits from creatures before I start fogging, which usually takes me down pretty low. Since the chalice only restores 1 life per activation, it's going to take a really long time to get to 30, even with Blunt the Assault helping on occasion.
Anyway, if I had room for the chalice, I'd probably put Jace's Erasure back in instead. As it stands, the Erasures really just make my opponent angry more than it actually wins games, but at least it synergizes well with everything else in the deck.
@theurbanraptor I know what you mean! I built a shell of a Decimator Web fog deck a couple of days ago, and was all excited until I realized the web's ability cost so much. I was reeeally hoping it was automatic every upkeep. I'm sure there's still a deck to be built, but for now I'll leave it in other, more capable hands.
@everyone I think there's a place for some Hysterical Blindness effects in the sideboard. I will look at this for a bit.
You inspired me to build my own turbo fog deck, and i wanted to run 3x Memory adepts in mine, however, i only own 3 which is fine. however, for the sheer absolute fun of it, i put in one karn liberated in my deck. It works ridiculously well i must say. you can either control the board with karns minus ability or use his plus ability on yourself to exile rites of Flourishing(assuming restarting the game is your goal) and jaces erasure. with all of your fog cards it really isn't hard to restart the game at all in 3 turns. Also, it may very well just make your opponent concede lol.
Also, a problem i'm thinking the deck may have but i am trying to address, is Grand Abolisher. what do you do if your opponent gets him out? Maybe you already discussed this, but i missed it.
This deck does not like Grand Abolisher, it's true. Main deck, the only real thing you can do about it is to hope for Blasphemous Act anytime he hits the field. Snapcaster Mage and Charmbreaker Devils can let you reuse it if need be, but to be honest that card really messes with this deck. Imagine the Abolisher equipped with Sword of War and Peace. shudder
The sideboard nets you a couple of options, however. Chief of those is Beast Within. The only other real option is to try to Surgical Extraction a destroyed or milled Abolisher in order to be rid of them entirely.
Either way, the Grand Abolisher doesn't TOTALLY shut you down, but it does make winning almost purely based on the luck of the draw.
@quargur- smart players take the early damage. I've said before, and will say again, life and infect counters need to be thought of as more form of stalls. The first 19 life don't matter, just that last 1. If you think like that, Blunt works double duty.
after reading the comments on your version, take a look at my turbofog and tell me what you think of it. deck:g-turbofog-standard thanks for the help on mine too Nephilim seems like you just love turbofogs XD and its true, this deck gets annoying super fast. maybe Lost in the Woods? it kinda rotates your deck for you if Ponders just not working for you.
@Minousmancer Well considering people were playing the fool out of it at the Grand Prix and this is a mill deck, it seems to fit pretty well. If Jace, Memory Adept, Jace's Erasure (if he puts it back in), Rites of Flourishing and enough land with Nephalia Drownyard is out, You can Mill them for 17 cards a turn.
Splashing black for the drownyards just doesn't seem necessary. It has its place in U/B control, but the mill of this deck is more incidental. Jace and Increasing Confusion are just convenient win conditions that work while completely disregarding combat.
I ran this deck at FNM tonight because I had the cards for it. I went 4-1 and took 4th, so props to you! My biggest problem was a R/G Hellrider deck. I hadn't realized that Hellrider doesn't target a player, so Witchbane Orb can't do anything against it. I think instead of witchbanes I am going to run a playset of Spellskites if I play this deck next week. The highlight of the tournament for me was Blasphemous Act ing a guy who had 11 forests out, 2 Wurmcoil Engines and 4 Dungrove Elders each equipped with a Sword of Feast and Famine. Oh man it was fun :)
By the way, I'm making a deck that functions like a hyper-fog deck but with a lifegain premise. I could use some help narrowing down the cards: Fog of Life
I don't own any myself, and I'm not really crazy about buying/trading for any (personal preference here. I recognize it's a really great card, I'm just sort of indifferent), so I'll hold off on adding them to the above decklist.
Still, alternate win-cons are a good thing to have handy, so long as they don't interfere with your primary strategy. So yeah, whatever works! Go for it, I say.
hey dude, so i was really thinking hard because white humans is the real issue for this deck at my fmn. Grand Abolisher and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben really fuck shit up. by the time you have 4 mana to play Beast Within its usually too late.
So i think i came up with a solution in my deck deck:weather-report-foggy-with-a-chance-of-zombies
what about Mind Unbound for the extra draw? side board out sphinx because they may sideboard in kill spells for it, then boom same cost, just slower draw.
also, i put Praetor's Counsel in my deck last week, i got 4th, losing only to a pod deck, but it was HILARIOUS. i got alllll my spells back. LOVED IT.
im sure this has been said before but i didnt read every comment, but i would sideboard Grafdigger's Cage. I have a deck very similar to this one, and its great because players get all their cards out and are like "yes my awesome combo i s gonna come off." then you just fog it. But when their awesome combo involves Flayer of the Hatebound and Gravecrawlers, your kinda screwed lol.