Sacred Foundry
General forum
Posted on Aug. 24, 2013, 2 a.m. by golgariwrath
ok am I missing something? I would like to say I have been playing quite a long time I started playing when Portal, 4th edition, temptest strong hold etc. then I quit, and picked back up with Return to Ravnica. so I am sure I have a fairly decent concept of the game (aside decerning batch and stack) anyways... Sacred Foundry Sacred Foundry Land Mountain Plains(Tap: Add (Red) or (White) to your mana pool.)
As Sacred Foundry enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Sacred Foundry enters the battlefield tapped.
Why is this a rare? and why is people pushing uses for it in decks, is it becuse its currently in Mondern/Standerd? I cannot find any reason to play this over a guild gate... not trying to be a thorn in the sides but I just cannot wrap my mind around it, unless your playing extort and garentee health..
Fleetfiend says... #3
Also, there is no need to copy all of the card information. Tagging the card with brackets ( Sacred Foundry ) will show the card when it is hovered over.
August 24, 2013 2:05 a.m.
It is fetchable with Farseek . It can turn on cards that care about that like Flinthoof Boar . It taps for 2 colours of mana and you can have it come in untapped if you want. It is fetchable with fetchlands like Marsh Flats giving you more options.
Remember, in magic, the only life that matters is the last point of life.
August 24, 2013 2:07 a.m.
golgariwrath says... #5
so in a sense you are taking life for a one mana drop on the first turn, and or the possbilities of not having the colour you needed at the time, I guess i can see some reasoning when you don't have the right color for that one drop. I guess its meta based upon various groups, my thursday night magic night none of us uses them, and nestled in our trade piles lol. I guess I can throw them through a leep if I added two of them in my forty card lol
August 24, 2013 2:10 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #6
Sacred Foundry , in addition to the other shocklands as they're called, have basic land types and yet are dual lands. That is extremely helpful for things like Farseek , Nature's Lore , Skyshroud Claim , etc. These things do not specify BASIC land, and can search out for the shocklands. Farseek can search out Breeding Pool , Temple Garden , Overgrown Tomb , etc. even though they are "Forests". The reason is they are also another land type.
Like Fleetfiend said, you can also pay 2 life to have them come in untapped. That means a lot between winning and losing. I do agree though that the guildgates don't get enough credit just because they always come in tapped.
August 24, 2013 2:11 a.m.
I think the issue your having with shocklands, what the Ravnica duals are referred to as, is that you're overvaluing life total. Life is a resource like anything else, and some of the strongest cards in magic allow you to exchange your life for additional value. Shocklands give you unrestricted and untapped if need access to two colors. Dark Confidant exchanges life for card advantage. Phyrexian mana cards let you cast something for cheaper or even outside your colors.
The life lose is often trivial to the extent that loosing a game only happens at 0.
August 24, 2013 2:14 a.m.
golgariwrath says... #8
WOW, now that is something I had never thought about. using farseek, I had always assumed that it meant specifically a land card, never thought about the term basic lands.. mayhaps there was no basic lands when I was in middleschool/highschool. now, I honestly have a new appreciation for these "shock lands" thank you tapped out community. I have only been here for a few months rarely post, but quite a bit of wealth of knowledge, and no one looks down on anyways, again thank you again.
August 24, 2013 2:16 a.m.
golgariwrath says... #9
I do agree with Slycne about the life value to an extent, I had been using a lot of demons as of late, and life at some point had no value to me, as I would quickly make it up.. but the two damege upfront, kinda gets at me lol
August 24, 2013 2:18 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #10
At times there is a way to cheat the shock lands. An example is my mana ramp deck Swaying to the Symphony of Destruction. I run Breeding Pool and if I get one in my opening hand, I can let it come in tapped cause I have no 1 drop spells, so it really has no meaning coming in untapped turn 1. Other sources that help are Amulet of Vigor , as it allows you to bypass paying the two life.
August 24, 2013 2:22 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Life is a resource. Blood begets power.
If you're willing to pay life, you can access many of the strongest effects in the game.
August 24, 2013 2:32 a.m.
Also, pace a huge factor.
If you can turn 1 and have either red or white open, that's huge, rather than having to wait an entire turn to open up a land.
In a fast environment like standard, speed kills.
August 24, 2013 2:42 a.m.
golgariwrath says... #13
Again this post has had been a great wealth of help, especially the explanation of what the shock lands can be capable of, I used to never run Farseek because of lack of choice of forest, now its gonna make my gruul based deck just a bit faster., and the fact I can get two lands out, I can totally see my self using some life for it
August 24, 2013 2:42 a.m.
Actually, if you farseek for a shockland, paying two life won't do anything.
August 24, 2013 2:55 a.m.
Stone_Munkee says... #15
Yeah, Farseek forces you to play it tapped anyway so you can't pay life to have it come in untapped.
August 24, 2013 3:12 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #16
Well there's two reasons, firstly there's the interaction with shocklands and cards like Farseek , Nature's Lore and Arbor Elf etc.
Secondly the ability to pay 2 life, in order to play it untapped is extremely useful, in a 1vs1 match you want to be playing a creature or a spell each turn, and every turn you'll be wanting to use all of your mana. This makes a deck efficient and gives you an edge, if your opponent can't keep up.
Shocklands, can come in untapped, guildgates cannot, that means someone running them isn't going to be as efficient, and they'll more likely lose.
Turn one: Champion of the Parish into turn two Ash Zealot , losing 4 life from playing 2 Sacred Foundry 's is a much much much much better play than two parish into turn three ash zealot, playing Boros Guildgate 's.
August 24, 2013 8:59 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #17
Schuesseled: Shocklands, can come in untapped, guildgates cannot, that means someone running them isn't going to be as efficient, and they'll more likely lose.
I've been able to trump decks running shocks while only using basics and guildgates. I think saying you're more likely to lose using guildgates isn't true. While it is true you don't wanna load your deck with a playset of each, that doesn't mean your chances are slimmer than if they were shocks. Not saying the shocks aren't better, just that you can beat a deck with them using guildgates
August 24, 2013 1:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
@UmbrotheUmbreon: One case here or there makes no difference.
If you have two decks of similar construction being played by players of similar skill, the deck with shocks instead of gates will, on average, be faster and more powerful. Shocks are individually good, and they have good support.
August 24, 2013 1:29 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #19
Epochalyptik: I never said that they weren't faster or less powerful. I simly stated that running guildgates over shocks isn't exactly a guaranteed loss. I use gates over shocks (for budget reasons) and my deck does fine. My mana is fixed more often than not, I don't have to lose life (which is trivial in my deck anyway cause it is extort), and I don't spend 40$ for a playset of one card. I don't overlook the power of the shocks, just the "you need shocks or your deck isn't that good" deal.
August 24, 2013 2:39 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #20
If you reread what you quoted, you'll notice i did not say using guildgates is a guaranteed loss, i said it made your deck less likely to succeed, as in the percentage chance of victory (assuming that could be figured out) falls somewhat.
You should understand that what we are saying is that shocks, generally speaking, will make your deck better, that's not the same as saying that your deck won't be good without them.
August 24, 2013 7:19 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #21
I have interpretation problems, and the internet don't really help that lol. I just hate it cause a lot of people tell me the guildgates are bad cause they always come in tapped when they are actually not all that bad. I don't have the money for plethora of shocklands so when these things came out I was ecstatic. Mana fixing at a cheap cost was the best thing for budget players.
August 24, 2013 7:28 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #23
I agree that they aren't AS good as the shocklands, but it just gets aggravating hearing "I hate guildgates, they're so bad" when in actuality they are far from bad. There's just better things out there. That's like saying Jace, Memory Adept is bad cause Jace, the Mind Sculptor is out.
August 24, 2013 9:56 p.m.
Yeah. Shocklands are just better than guildgates. And so are m13 ISD duals, so guildgates are seen as 'bad' as there are 8 cards you can run that are almost strictly better for you, that they seem unnecessary if you were in a world where you have acces to 4 of every card in foil, but the fact is that some people, like you umbro, me a lot, just aren't. I generally stick to lackey/cockatrice and limited, so I don't need to worry about shocks and their pricing, but there is no denying that they're better unless you're using gate support like Gatecreeper Vine , Maze's End and Greenside Watcher along with gatekeepers, which mean you have to adapt your deck to them. A turn 1 Champion of the Parish into turn 2 Burning-Tree Emissary (sometimes 2) into Lightning Mauler swing for 8 is quite nasty, and can only be done in standard with shocklands. Also they allow m13 duals to come untapped, so they're really good if you get to use them.
August 24, 2013 10:37 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #25
Right, I don't deny that. I never once said they WERE better, I just said they aren't bad. Many a time have Icome across a situation where even a land coming into play tapped would have been nice if it gave me the color I needed rather than needing to mulligan for it. Guildgates are useful, they are just outshined by the shocklands and taplands.
August 24, 2013 11:01 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #26
It counts as a mountain and a plains, just like any of the other shock lands. It can come in untapped, and believe it or not in the early game 2 life is no big deal to sacrifice. Tbh I wasn't big into using life as a resource until I started using shock lands, sacrificing a little life can have great benefits. Sometimes it's better than buddy lands
August 24, 2013 11:20 p.m.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Guildgates are not merely worse than shocklands. Unless you're playing Limited or casual, guildgates are downright bad.
Tempo matters. This may be the single biggest understatement in these forums. Having to wait one extra turn for mana absolutely can be the difference between winning and losing. It's a simple equation. If you play guildgates in place of shocklands or buddy lands or even basic lands, you will lose games specifically because you decided to run guildgates.
If you take a look at pre-Burning Earth (when there was no punishment for playing non-basic lands, so there was no reason to not jam as many duals into your deck as possible) RG decks in Standard, you will see that they play 4-5 shocklands, 4 buddy lands, and all the rest basic mountains. Guildgates were not included. The reason: basic mountains are better than guildgates.
When Brad Nelson decided that he wanted a 17th black source in his Junk Aristocrats deck that he won with in Baltimore a couple months ago, he didn't stick in a guildgate. He stuck in a basic swamp. Because basic swamps are better than guildgates.
Patrick Chapin recently wrote a book where he talked about CITP lands. He rightly suggests that you count them as 1-drops, because coming into play tapped is the same as playing a land and then tapping it for one mana. Many lands offer you value for this virtual expenditure of one mana. Guildgates do not. They're 1-drops that don't even give you a vanilla 1/1 body.
There are all of the other reasons why shocklands are better: fetchable with Farseek or fetchlands, make buddy lands come into play untapped, count as swamps for Mutilate or mountains for Flinthoof Boar , etc. The only reason that matters is that they can tap for mana on the turn they come into play. If your land does not and cannot offer equivalent value, then you're playing the wrong land.
August 25, 2013 12:18 a.m.
When you have access to 16 black sources in a deck, of course a basic will be better if you want more, since you have enough. If he only had access to commons and uncommons for his mana base for whatever reason, then he would (probably switch to monocolour), but if he had to stick to junk he'd play 2 or 3 of each Guildgate, as opposed to 24 or however many lands he plays that were all basics. Also, take a look at the pro tour dragon's maze top 8 deck lists, 7/8 of them use at least 1 Guildgate, the other is a blitz deck http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptdgm13/top_8_decks is the link. I understand that this is block and they had Gatecreeper Vine , and no tap lands, but standard right now has a ridiculous mana base, and with a balanced mana base guildgates are played. This can show that guildgates are better than basics, as 7/8 of the top 8 decks play with them. Also, in pro tour atlantic city, zvi mowshowitz used b/r aggro, and ran 4 blood crypt, 4 dragonskull summit, and rakdos Guildgate.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6z0esPgsh0 is a link to him playing, skip to around 19 minutes to see a Guildgate.
August 25, 2013 12:56 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #29
Barandis: Saying a guildgate is worse than a basic is like saying mana fixing is bad. Yeah, it makes you wait a turn, but the original Ravnica bounce lands did worse. They came in tapped and required you to return a land to your hand. While they provided both colors rather than a choice, it still set you back a bit. However, bounce lands have received plenty of love, esp with the birth of Amulet of Vigor .
Before I put guildgates in, I did what you said is "better" and had nothing but basic lands. Color fucked harder than stone. Threw some guildgates in there (six of them) and it ran a lot better. I've done tricolor decks with no mana fixing, and compared to that, guildgates are most definitely WORTH the wait, esp a turn one guildgate with no 1 drops. Lets also not forget that not everyone has enough money to shell out 40$-80$ worth of nonbasic lands, and the guildgates helped those with a budget mana fix their decks.
Point is, mana fixing is mana fixing. Saying basic lands are better is just ridiculously silly. I'm not gonna say it's wrong or stupid cause everyone has their opinion. Mine is that guildgates ARE good, there is just BETTER stuff.
August 25, 2013 1:13 a.m.
"Yeah, it makes you wait a turn..."
Honestly, from my point of view, that ends the discussion right there. If you wait a turn, more often than not (if you're not playing a control deck), you lose.
The other part that ends the discussion is any variation of "in Block." Yes, guildgates are good in block because you don't have any other choices. They're good in limited because of the very concern about access to cards that you mention that is completely irrelevant in Standard and Modern, which are what the OP mentioned specifically. Block, limited, casual, etc. is a completely different discussion.
If we want to correct the reason why Nelson ran a basic than a guildgate, let's choose the real reason. The real reason is that he wanted to increase his chances of having two black mana available on turn four so that he could play two spells, each of which use one black. Guildgates don't work because they're slow. Do you think he decided not to play a 23rd dual because 22 was enough? No, it's because the 23rd was too slow. As I said, a basic swamp is better.
Do you know why Zvi's BR Zombies doesn't exist anymore in Standard? Because the mana is too bad. Guildgates are necessary because you need triple black on turn 3 and still need early red, but they're too slow. The deck can't keep up -- specifically because of guildgates -- and now it's dead. If Geralf's Messenger had a 1BB casting cost instead of BBB, the deck would probably still exist, because then it wouldn't need to run guildgates.
The most compelling single argument made is basically "mana bases are expensive". I wholeheartedly agree with this and I know it's a major concern for some people. But as unfortunate as it is, that still doesn't make guildgates good. It makes it necessary to play bad cards, because you're right in that guildgates are better than basics when you don't have access to anything else.
I wish it wasn't that way, but you're going to just lose games because you play guildgates. Unfortunately, the game doesn't check your bank account and adjust your win rate to compensate for being unable to afford a proper mana base. If that's the case then I genuinely, honestly feel for you, but the guildgates that you're forced to play are still bad.
August 25, 2013 8:46 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #31
The guildgates are only slow because the meta is too fast. Printed in a standard with a slower meta I guarantee you people would be using them galore. Same reason high CMC cards are only seen in Reanimator decks (if even that) is because of how fast the meta is. When I say high CMC, I mean 5+.
The guildgates are a bit slower yes, but that doesn't whatsoever mean they are bad. Mana fixing, no matter what form, will never be bad. I'm done arguing this. If you can't see the logic in it then whatever. Believe what you want. I know what I believe to be true and will stick to it.
August 25, 2013 9:12 p.m.
few other benefits i dont think i saw posted:
1) if you are running gates you're running 2 colors... 4 gates, 4 shocks, 4dual lands is 12 multi colored land...that alone is a massive benefit.
2) b/c they are both 2 types of basic lands- any form of checklands Dragonskull Summit
, Nimbus Maze
etc will qualify.
3) ex. in a 3 colored, 24 land standard deck, you go from having 12 gate options 12 basic...to 12 shock options, and 12 check land options..meaning 24 land that could come into play untapped. That alone is huge.
example of importance...youre on the draw...they drop a turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft you want to play Pyroclasm ...but you can't b/c your turn 2 was a gate. they swing for 6...if you had a shock, you drop that take 2 life and you saved 4.
Fleetfiend says... #2
It's big benefit is that it's a Mountain and a Plains. So anything that seeks a specific kind of land or requires a certain kind of land can target it. It also has the versatility of being able to have it come in to play untapped. Sure, you have to play 2 life... but being able to play that key card a turn earlier can with the game for you regardless.
August 24, 2013 2:03 a.m.