I like the deck idea man! Though, Student of Warfare seems to be something that loses to the most common removal in modern, Fatal Push. I know there are not many 1 cmc knights to play and most creatures in modern die to fatal push, but they can kill it right after you spent your first two turns making it a 3/3 first strike and that can put you very behind. I am thinking of splashing G to use the 1 cmc spot for mana-dorks and then be able use out of Knight of the Reliquary.

@masterofzelda

Every creature in the deck folds to Fatal Push, and Lightning Bolt has been able to kill Student of Warfare in the same scenario before Push even existed. Turn 1 removal is not something I can reliably prevent, so there's no point in trying to get around it.

If Student lives to attack on Turn 2, then all is good. If not, I'm only down one card and that's one less removal spell aimed at my high-end.

I have zero interest in adding another colour. It's too much hassle for marginal gain. Mana dorks have a tendency to be dead draws in the late game, something Student will never be. Knight of the Reliquary is mainly a big beater. Deck already has those. And there's not a lot of utility lands worth tutoring.

I'm also trying to completely foil this deck, it's my Pet Deck after all. Adding a colour would massively increase the remaining cost to do so.

Flagstones of Trokair! Sweet brew. Any plans for a SB?

Cheers

@Grubbernaut

Flagstones of Trokair doesn't do anything, and using the Legend Rule to grab Plains out of my deck is pointless.

I have no idea what to have in a Sideboard. This is a casual Pet Deck, and I'd never show up at an FNM event with it. I'd probably be a bunch of generic hate cards.

The reason to run Flagstones is thinning your deck for free; it's essentially a fetchland that doesn't cost you any life, since you're mono-white. Preventing yourself from drawing additional lands unnecessarily is great in a deck where you almost never want more than 4 lands, especially without any card draw/scry. After that, they're going to be dead draws most of the time.

Since this deck doesn't rely on lifegain, either, it's probably worth running 8 fetches, anyway.

@Grubbernaut

Deckthinning is extremely negligible and a common misconception. The math was done when Onslaught first introduced Fetchlands back in 2002.

The gain from removing lands from your deck is so minuscule, you'll never see the benefits in a actual game. But, you'll always feel the sting from the Fetchlands' lifeloss regardless.

This deck doesn't need manafixing, doesn't need to fill the graveyard, and doesn't need the shuffle effect. So what are Fetchlands accomplishing? Absolutely nothing! There are no tangible benefits of using Fetchlands in this deck.

Like I said, Flagstones of Trokair doesn't do anything, and using it to thin my deck is pointless.

Flagstones has no downside. Why do you hate putting the math in your favor? No life loss, gets a dead draw out of your deck, and doesn't cost you anything in doing so.

Do you want better odds to win, or worse odds to win?

The idea that improving your odds of drawing the card you need from 1 in 50 to 1 in 49 will literally never win you a game is incorrect, and there really shouldn't be any need to argue when there's not even life payment involved. What's the downside of running Flagstones?

@Grubbernaut

Why would I spend money on cards that will never offer a meaningful, tangible benefit?

Resistance to Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, Field of Ruin and any LD spells; free deck thinning with literally no downside.

You could've simply stated "I don't want to spend the money on them," rather than try to claim there are "never any benefits," which there are.

Bottom line: There's multiple advantages and no downsides, at all. Check your autism at the door and take stock of the situation. Not wanting to drop $40 is a legitimate reaction, but to claim there aren't benefits is demonstrably, objectively false.

@Grubbernaut

Aside from the set of Mutavaults, my manabase is already immune to Strip Lands and other nonbasic land hate.

The reason I don't want to purchase a set of Flagstones of Trokair is becasue the benefits of using them is negligible.

And since you're now resorting to insults, we have nothing further to discuss.

Flagstones is a straight upgrade for the deck, unless money is an issue (which I will guess not, as you stated you want to foil it out and that shit aint cheap) there is no reason not to include it.

Im struggling to understand why you are being so damn rude about a suggestion that literally has no downside for your deck and only improves the play (and the math, as you were so kind to provide) of your deck. Why did you bother posting here if you didnt want to listen to decklist improvements?

@Kay7men

Deckthinning is a myth!

The gain received from deckthinning is so minuscule it can't be realized in actual gameplay, and is never worth the cost of the cards required.

Even if I had a set of Flagstones of Trokair, I still wouldn't use them. It's a nonbasic land that effectively does nothing while on the battlefield. Why should I waste deckspace on nonbasics that don't provide any utility?

I don't want to use Flagstones of Trokair. I've shown why I don't want to use Flagstones of Trokair. But the common player is convinced that any form of deckthinning offers some sort of game-winning statistical edge. It doesn't!

To add one other point; Ever noticed how Fetches go for multiple lands types, with only a couple of exceptions? That's because fetches are mana fixers, not deck thinners. And in a mono-anything deck, Fetches lose all their usefulness, and simply become a dead draw or a lifesink. Neither of which is something that NensouHiebara wants.

So then, what is your opinion on New Benalia? Yes, it's a tap-land, but the Scry effect can help in the mid to late game.

Yes, everyone knows fetchlands are for mana fixing. That's sort of obvious. No one is saying a Fetch should take up slots.

And, deckthinning isn't a myth. Its a thing that happens when you pull cards out of your deck without drawing them. The myth is that thinning by one land is, by itself, worth the two life that regular fetchlands take. However, since this isn't a Fetch, there is no life loss, and so that is also not relevant.

What is actually on the table to be discussed is a land that functions almost exactly like a basic, only it cannot be fetched by Orchid and resists land destruction, while strictly improving your statistical odds of dodging a dead draw if you sac it to the legends rule. Regardless of how minor that statistical change, the only actual downside of this card in your deck, ignoring physical cost, is that you cannot grab it with Orchid. So unless you are planning on bouncing your knights over and over, its a strict upgrade. There is no reason to pretend it isn't.

But that isn't the issue here, is it? The issue is you acting so incredibly rude towards a player who offered you a literal straight upgrade for your deck. I'm dumbfounded that you are so obsessed with a minor statistical change in chance that you feel the need to transform from whatever sort of person you are into the absolute cunt you are portraying yourself as here.

Regardless of the merits of Flagstones of Trokair (I have effectively gained small advantage with flagstones, Hurray for me!! :) ).. or perceived drawbacks of; I cannot agree, conceptually that deck thinning is a myth. Seems more like a mathematical theory (almost law) that pulling a specific card type from your deck leaves you with a high probability of a desirable spell/plays.

• I have a couple of decks that actually significantly benefit from thinning. Examples:
• In my Sisay deck I have early-played Traverse the Outlands when I had Multani, Maro-Sorcerer out. With a massive early mana base all proceeding draws were spells.
• In my Sram deck I frequently use Sword of the Animist or, more impactfully, Land Tax to grab more lands than I need, discard extras, & augment my chances of impact draws instead of dead land draws.
• Now if you are saying that something like flagstones in UNLIKELY to significantly thin a deck impactfully that could be a legitimate argument.

@berryjon

I've been refraining from using lands that enter tapped to avoid tempo issues. I want to play out my creatures on curve without a hiccup.

I could give New Benalia a shot, as long as it doesn't end up harming the deck's tempo too much.

@Kay7men

With a full set of Flagstones of Trokair, I'd would probably only see about two to three of them on average. The advantage of that one, maybe two lands I'd remove from my deck isn't realistically going to help my chances of drawing a nonland card in the amount of turns games of Magic progress in. The advantage is too small to bother. Why can't you understand this?

Flagstones of Trokair isn't a "literal straight upgrade". It's a nonbasic land, with all the downsides that come with it. It can be turned into a Mountain or be forced to enter tapped. Hardly an upgrade when Basics are immune to such abilities.

Any competent opponent won't use their targeted land removal on a land that replaces itself, when they can hit my Basics all the same or a land that actually does something.

Which leads to my main issue with Flagstones of Trokair: it doesn't do anything. No 'ETB' trigger to provide additional value. No static ability to bolster my strategy. No benefits whatsoever for just having it around.

Flagstones of Trokair is a card I just don't want in my deck. It doesn't amount to anything being used as a deckthinner.

And calling me a cunt isn't helping your argument, is greatly uncalled for, and makes you look pathetic.

We're done.

@Gleeock

Fetchlands for the purpose of deckthinning is the myth. Having a few lands removed from your deck won't meaningfully impact your draws.

Obviously, purging a deck's lands with Land Tax or a heavy ramp spell is going to have a much larger and more noticeable effect.

Haha, gotcha, well I'm good then. Also, I forgot I was commenting on a non-EDH format, which is also outside my usual knowledge base anyway... different interactions, timelines, etc... You know, those longer lasting EDH games can definitely see some change with a selective thinning effect running unchecked :) (I'm pretty infamous for that in my meta).

• I almost made a smarmy comment on your Balan deck about wishing for a self-replacing target for your Dust Bowl... but I figured you've heard enough about the Flagstones :)

Why no Kinsbaile Cavalier?

@shroom_dude

Kinsbaile Cavalier is a weak 4-drop for Knight Tribal.

4cmc cards are this deck's curve toppers. They need to be functional and powerful on their own. By itself, Cavalier only attacks for 4. This is pretty poor for a 4-drop. In comparison to the deck's current 4-drops:

• Hero of Bladehold has a beefier body and brings an army with it. On the first attack, Hero attacks for 7 over multiple bodies. Hero is also resistant to commonly played burn effects.
• Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is White Weenie's Swiss Army Planeswalker. He's a powerful lone threat, an army, and an anthem all in one package. With a Knight token created the turn Gideon dropped, they also attack for 7. Alternatively, he can endlessly create Knight tokens and fill up the field.

Cavalier is far behind what these two cards can do.

I have a similar deck and love it. Although a main card I use is Light from Within as a 2-of.

Also Wilt-Leaf Liege as a 2-of at the top end really helps against decks running Lilliana of the Veil as well as having an immediate impact on the board compared to Hero of Bladehold

Kinsbaile Cavalier as a 2-of over Silverblade Paladin seems like a no-brainer, and one other main addition is to cut a 2 lands, a Fragmentize, and a Dismember for 4 Aether Vials. Being able to instant-speed drop a liege, Calvallier or a Knight Exemplar really can mess things up for the opponent.

Personal perference but I've found Knight of Meadowgrain to be a nice 2 of instead of 2 Student of Warfares. Students are the only 1-drop but the mana needed to invest in them doesn't seem worth it especially how easily they get killed right after. Adding Aether Vials really helps having a turn-1 play, and cutting down to 2 Students still gives Vial on 1 to have a chance to hit.

Also consider having a board wipe such as a Wrath of God if you can manage to stick a Knight Exemplar it's just bonkers.

@LunarEntropy

In my opinion, Hero of Bladehold and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar set the bar exceedingly high for White Weenie 4-drops. Every other current 4-drop can't measure up to what they can accomplish:

• Light from Within: Gideon trumps it by being an anthem or a threat depending on the situation. Light also can't boost Mutavault or tokens.

• Wilt-Leaf Liege: Hero attacks harder with multiple bodies and can similarly pump other Knights with its battle cry trigger. Not every deck uses discard. Liege's replacement effect won't be relevant every game.

• Kinsbaile Cavalier: I like to have my 4-drops to be effective by themselves so that they can still keep me in the game if my earlier creatures are hit with heavy removal. Cavalier requires other Knights, otherwise it's an unimpressive creature. Compared to what Hero and Gideon are capable of, Cavalier isn't that great. Silverblade Paladin also curves better than Cavalier after a leveled up Student or a 2-drop Knight.

Student of Warfare is the one of the best White Weenie 1-drop ever printed. It may take an additional mana investment, but it's worth having a flexible creature for every stage of the game:

• It becomes a 3/3 first striker on Turn 2, putting heavy pressure on opponents early game.
• It acts like a 3 mana creature after the first few turns.
• It can be a lone, double striking threat in the mid-late game.

The same can't be said for Knight of Meadowgrain.

Aether Vial will never be a part of this deck. If you look at the top Vial strategies:

• 5c Humans is an all-creature deck that uses Vial to spam bodies.
• U/x Merfolk is loaded with 2-drops and uses the mana not spent on creatures to cast countermagic, Spreading Seas, and other forms of disruption.
• Legacy Death and Taxes uses powerful utility lands to stranglehold their opponents.

This deck doesn't do any of that. My creatures' CMCs are too varied, there aren't enough creatures for Vial to begin with, and this deck has a low amount of disruption. Shoehorning Vial isn't going to make the deck better, and changing the deck to accommodate Vial isn't the deck I want to play.

Using sweepers in a Weenie Aggro deck is insanity. Knight Exemplar is in the deck to boost my Knights, not an excuse for questionable card choices. If Exemplar is left unanswered, then it takes over combat.

Another thing, why so many 2-ofs? Mono-White has the worst card draw and selection. All of those 2-ofs would lead to an inconsistent mess.