Pro Tours will now be Standard and Limited
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 8, 2014, 6:37 p.m. by sylvannos
I haven't seen a topic posted on TappedOut for this yet, so I thought I'd make one.
"Modern isn't a great PT format as it doesn't really show off the newest set--a goal of the PT. We'll keep supporting it at all other levels."- Aaron Forsythe
WotC doesn't make money from the secondary market and gets their revenue from sealed product. How do you get people to buy more sealed product? Use the Pro Tour to push the newest formats of course!
I'm really kind of irked about this. Grand Prix: Las Vegas is still the largest tournament ever held among all trading card games, not just Magic. Wizards literally has the ability to print money with sets like Modern Masters and Vintage Masters in MODO. The demand to play formats outside of Standard is definitely there. I'm biased, however, because Standard and Sealed are my least favorite formats.
This also means Block Constructed will no longer be seen at Pro Tours.
There is some good news coming from our friends over at MtG Salvation:
"They understand how much negative impact this news has, and are heavily reconsidering the announcement based on the information they now have."- [email protected]
I'm hoping they reevaluate their decision. I think if they really want to showcase a new set, the first Pro Tour after that set's release should be Block Constructed. They should also start looking at more Modern Masters releases. That doesn't mean each one should have Tarmogoyf in it, but having reprints of other hard-to-find format staples (Tectonic Edge and All Is Dust , for example) would sell a lot of packs.
vampirelazarus says... #3
Its a money issue. They don't make money off the secondary market, so why should they support it?
From a game design stand point, they don't want to use resources to print old cards, when they can continue to make new, exciting cards to get new players to play their game. Keep in mind, thats what this is to them: a game. The game comes first.
August 8, 2014 7:32 p.m.
I disagree with Forsythe's assertion b/c PT BNG got me into Modern. The fact it's being taken out of PT play is very disappointing.
August 8, 2014 7:39 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #5
I've kind of always assumed that Modern wouldn't really be long for this world. They've historically had issues balancing the format due to the power level of cards that exist within the specified sets. They have previously said that they'd like to see 10-12 solid contenders (which I don't think has ever happened in any format.... ever) in a healthy meta, which is horse hockey. The whole MaRo mantra of "limitations breed creativity" is really proving not applicable in Modern or any other format that is larger than Standard that doesn't rotate (so all the constructed formats that currently exist, thank the gods that Extended is dead) due to the larger card pool. You're basically always going to end up with the strongest overall deck and the decks that can beat the strongest deck in a format that only goes back to Eighth Edition. Honestly, why not just bring back Depths, Top and Dredge, hell I'd go so far as to throw a bone Storm by either unbanning Seething Song or banning Serum Visions and unbanning Ponder . Stop being worried about the power level and suddenly you have a new field of contenders. Instead of taking away from strong decks, they should be giving cards back to other decks to even the field.
Pro Tour is apparently actually short for Promotional Tour? At least I think I remember reading that somewhere. However, by following the logic that they want to promote the most recent sets, I would assume that Block Constructed and Sealed would be the formats of choice. Also, if they really wanted to, they could basically print money by re-releasing Modern Masters due to the high demand of a lot of the cards in set, but it would also piss a lot of current players off (I can see the riots at my LGS as Goyf drops to a $70 or less card).
August 8, 2014 7:42 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #6
I disagree that its unhealthy. We do have a variety of decks, and every major tournament even has new rogue decks that do well.
If we are getting rid of formats based on unhealthy meta's, lets get rid of standard before modern.
August 8, 2014 7:54 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
I don't see any evidence for the assertion that Block constructed will not be a format for protour any more.
I am a bit disappointed that they will not be having any modern protours. but then again I was already disappointed that they don't have any legacy protours.
August 8, 2014 7:59 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #8
Standard has consistently had some of shittiest gameplay in history.
August 8, 2014 7:59 p.m.
This is not going to end well.
A lot of collectors indulge in Magic because cards hold onto value. Modern is one of the major reasons a lot of cards are valued after rotation. Cut that format out and a lot of card values will start falling off the end of the planet. Extended will slow this, but not stop it. So, yeah. Heavy card collectors will complain. LOUDLY.
That's not to say Modern didn't need some major surgery, but I would have tried a playset of 3 rule first before dropping it like this.
August 8, 2014 8:17 p.m.
@vampirelazarus: They should support Modern because it's been shown how much people enjoy buying sets with older cards. Vintage and Modern Masters sold like Wildfire . They don't make money off of singles, but they can make a ton from making more reprint sets.
@fluffybunnypants: Vintage has traditionally held 7 to 12 tier one decks. Right now, those decks are Kuldotha Forgemaster MUD, Stax, Grixis Control, Fastbond Gush Combo, ANT, Reel Fish, BUG Fish, Death and Taxes, and Burning Oath. Dredge and Noble Fish come in close behind all of those (they're more meta dependent).
Prior to Lorwyn era Extended, there were multiple tier one decks. I remember when Urza's Saga was still in Extended, there was Goblins, Miracle Grow, Affinity, U/W Control, Elves!, Reanimator, Storm, RDW, Life, Stax, Madness...the list goes on.
But what do these formats have that Modern doesn't? You hit the nail on the head: they've banned so many critical pieces of decks and often times arbitrary reasons. When you let people use powerful cards, they will often counter other powerful cards. Part of why BUG Fish does so well in Vintage is because it can drop a Trygon Predator turn one and start attacking your opponent's mana base. There were so many decks in Extended because they didn't go ban hammer happy. It was only when a large section of the card pool rotated out that Faeries (and later Cawblade) took over and killed the format.
In Modern, they just won't let us have nice things. Aggro could get a huge bump if Swords to Plowshares was in the format. Now, everything above 1 CMC doesn't have to have 3 toughness or do something insane (like Dark Confidant ). But nope. Swords to Plowshares is "too powerful for Standard."
@Gidgetimer: Aaron Forsythe said all Pro Tours would be Standard. Check out the Pro Tour Schedule:
All four Pro Tours are Standard and Draft.
August 8, 2014 8:35 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
Hey! At least the WMC and World Championships are mixed! We get to play Modern! Yay! Damn...
I am not a fan of this change at all. Changing formats keeps things interesting, and to be honest Pro Tour Theros was the most boring thing I ever saw, just because the tiny card pool made all the decks play the same cards. Standard for the last year really has been pretty off-putting, since the certain strategies that are prevalent are not very appealing to me or to many other people.
I believe that when Standard rotates with just a single set from the new block available, that Pro Tour should be non-Standard, like they did for RTR Block. Gatecrash actually gave us a bunch of good cards to play with, just like BNG sort of refueled the format a little bit, and making that Pro Tour Standard created a lot of excitment. Going forward, I believe this to be the best plan.
August 8, 2014 9:08 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
Again, I don't see where Aaron Forscythe said it. Some person asked if that would be the case. I see that the scheduled ones are all standard and draft now that you linked that other schedule. I don't however see anything, anywhere in the link you provided where anyone says that Block isn't an option. Only a place where someone asks.
August 8, 2014 9:11 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
Not sure if I understand what you're saying. That image shows that all the Pro Tours will be Standard/Draft, so that means there will be no Block event. Are you asking if Block is being considered to become a Pro Tour format again?
August 8, 2014 10:10 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
That is a schedule for this year, I understand that there will be no block this year. However I don't see anywhere that says that "[t]his also means Block Constructed will no longer be seen at Pro Tours." The schedule isn't the same from year to year. Just because there are no block events this year doesn't mean that there will no longer be any block events. Granted the spring one is usually Block, but its absence doesn't imply we will never see it again.
August 8, 2014 10:51 p.m.
@Gidgetimer: ExpiredRascals over at mtg salvation spoke with Aaron Forsythe at Pro Tour: Portland. He said Block Constructed will still probably stay around on MODO, but most likely not at a professional level.
If you check the MODO announcement:
...you'll see Theros Block Constructed is being axed....15 days ago.
@thispersonisagenius: Standard hasn't just been off putting this year, it's been absolute shit for the past couple of years. Innistrad/RtR was dominated by three-color B/G/x goodstuff midrange decks, Innistrad/Scars was dominated by Delver and G/R/x goodstuff, and Scars/Zendikar was dominated by Caw-Blade.
WotC has really pushed big, expensive, auto-win-the-game spells and creatures over the last few years and then not given Standard the removal to deal with said spells and creatures. Delver of Secrets Flip isn't hard to deal with when you have access to stuff like Pyroclasm and Swords to Plowshares . But what does Development do instead? Print stupid cards that warp the format like Cavern of Souls , Sphinx's Revelation , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , and Thragtusk .
August 9, 2014 4:15 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #18
I'll buy that, but I will say (and I feel that some number of people will agree with me) that Innistrad/RTR Standard was pretty enjoyable in that you could build almost anything you wanted, and use any combination of cards you thought would work well together just because the mana was perfect and there were a lot of cool mechanics to use. Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation were widely used, but you can't expect people not to play the mythics (yes, Thragtusk is a mythic). You can't expect a format with a small card pool not to allow the best cards to rise to the top, especially when there aren't an abundance of answers like the Eternal formats. That's why you see older formats being more balanced with no real best deck.
I've heard R&D members say that they want to create more big, flashy cards just so that the experience of watching and playing Magic is more enjoyable and has more big swings, and I can appreciate that.
August 9, 2014 9:04 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #19
I think something that Wizards needs to understand is that keeping their players interested in eternal formats gives the game longevity. By supporting Modern, Legacy, and Vintage they are keeping older players happy. Those older players may have lots of cash to drop on booster boxes, pre-releases, and drafts. By not supporting the collectible aspect of the game and only caring about new players, Wizards can expect players to rotate out of Standard as well.
August 9, 2014 11:15 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #20
I think the Innistrad/RTR standard rotation was the reason for such a rise in modern. Who wants to play some crappy flavorless mono colored deck from Theros after that?
August 9, 2014 1:38 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #22
Actually, when innistrad rotated out, I built Melira Pod and almost exclusively play modern now. Very rarely, I play commander.
August 9, 2014 3:42 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #23
The thing is though, aeonstoremyliver is that while the older Modern and Vintage players may have the money to buy booster boxes etc... they're not going to do that.
If I was a Vintage player why would I spend $100 on a box of cards, of which maybe one will go into my Vintage deck? Far cheaper to just buy that card on the secondary market. (Hell, the number of standard legal cards that are above even $20 is minimal). Standard players are the ones sending their money to Wizards - Vintage players are sending their money to the LGSes. (At least for real Magic. I don't know about Online Magic)
August 9, 2014 8:59 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #24
Named_Tawyny you're missing the point. I'm an Old Fogey and have been playing since Revised. The Zendikar block excited me so that I returned to the game and invested lots of money, sealed product included, into Standard at the time. Many old players have done the same.
Ergo if WOTC prints crappy sets like Theros and doesn't support Eternal formats, why then would I continue to purchase their sealed products? I've invested in them, but yet they aren't investing in me.
They might as well just admonish the Reserved List... Haha!
August 9, 2014 10:44 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #25
Pah! Only since Revised? Neophyte! :P
The issue is printing crappy sets, really. Everything else is secondary to that - as you said, when they made good sets, you invested in Standard (and that's where Wizard's money is - well that and the supplemental sets.)
Not saying I agree with it, but I can definitely see why they'd want to move more people towards formats that have them regularly cracking packs.
August 10, 2014 12:10 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #26
Ha! :-P....
But is this business move worth losing players over? The Reserve List was put in place to keep collectors and older players satisfied. Regardless or not if that was a mistake, Wizards at one point in time cared about those who have played long past.
I'm seeing a trend with WOTC not fully supporting Legacy and Vintage, and now, after so much effort in promotion ironically, Modern. I definitely get that their money is made with sealed product, but alienating a loyal customer and fan base is not only insulting, but also a poor business move.
August 10, 2014 12:29 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #27
lol let's be real. Theros was the worst possible follow up to the RTR block that they could have made. What kind of idiot really thought that would be a good business decision.
August 10, 2014 12:57 a.m.
I love the Theros block for the flavor. But I have cracked more M15 then I have the entire Theros block. If WOTC print good sets I will play limited and crack packs regardless of the number of Pro tours. But the PTs will not make me interested in standard if the blocks are no good. I'll just pick up the singles I want on the secondary market, heck after M15 I went and bought a 60 card standard deck at my LGS due to the fun stuff in M15. That is what WOTC needs to do, not print overpowerd cards, just fun and interesting sets. Not the super boring linear Voltron stuff in Theros...
August 10, 2014 2:24 a.m.
@APPLE01DOJ: I think Theros looks better on paper. R&D wanted to move away from the faster, multicolor format that was Innistrad-RtR into a slower, mono-color oriented format. What ended up happening is a block with really bad cards with RtR cards making up the bulk of tier one decks. U/W/x Control is a good example. Like 90% of the deck is from RtR. The other 10% is Temple of Enlightenment , Elspeth, Sun's Champion , and....Nyx-Fleece Ram for the sideboard?
I wouldn't be surprised if Khans bumps up the power level and we see people just playing Khans cards with Theros for lands and filler.
I'm with Named_Tawyny as far as where I spend my money. As someone who prefers Legacy, for example, I'm not going to spend $100 on a booster box hoping to get Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay . I'm just going to straight-up buy the cards as singles.
When I buy packs, it's so I can draft. Theros is even terrible in Limited. It's so focused on going all-in on one creature via bestow and heroic, players are geared towards the colors best suited for that (blue and white, with green adding some value).
I think RtR block as a whole was a lot of fun to draft from Gatecrash onwards. M15 has been great so far, and Innistrad wasn't bad either. This meant I was willing to dip in and buy packs. Theros got dull after a while and I found myself wandering off to play non-Standard, not-Theros-draft formats at FNM.
Modern Masters though...that was definitely a situation where I thought I'd get one or two packs just to see if I could pull something good and it turned into: "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY, WIZARDS! YOU CAN HAVE ALL OF IT."
The set was fun to draft and it had great cards in it. It baffles me that WotC hasn't taken more steps to get more product out there like it.
August 10, 2014 3:12 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #30
So, this happened. No more freaking out about no modern protours they are coming back.
August 10, 2014 8:15 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #33
Man, that was a faster turn around than New Coke.
August 10, 2014 9:28 p.m.
I am beyond pleased with the recant!!! Modern is such an amazing format and I want to play it for many more years. But without Wizard's support we can't!
August 10, 2014 9:51 p.m.
Thank you, Whatsee, for seeing the error of your ways. Takes a big man to admit his mistakes.
Hopefully, they bring back Block Constructed and don't cut it from the Pro Tour.
aeonstoremyliver says... #2
I hope they do recant. Many eternal format players, myself included, have put forth much cash, time, and effort into Modern and Legacy. For WOTC stating they will not support those formats is a slap in the face. Ironically they've made Modern their baby. Now it feels like a red headed step child. Makes me want to buy singles at my LGS and give Wizards the cliche middle finger.
My personal opinion is that if WOTC made a Standard set much like we had prior to Theros, they'd have more interest in their sealed product. I don't want to draft or pre-release a shitty, sub par set that will have next to zero value post rotation. M15 is promising and I hope that Khans follows suit.
August 8, 2014 7:11 p.m.