Multiplayer EDH as the Mono Blue Player - Political Help
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Feb. 4, 2017, 1:56 p.m. by Profet93
I've been utilizing my mono blue deck Tisk Tisk Talrand at the semi-competitive level at my LGS. I would like assistance with regards to the political aspects of EDH. I play magic every so often so I'm a bit of a noob.
Why does everybody automatically go for the mono blue player? Is it because we can counter spells before they resolve and are a threat to combo players?
What can I do to not paint a large target on my head. Of course some cards like Back to Basics, Bribery, and Isochron Scepter with an imprinted Memory Lapse don't help. But given that the deck is semi-competitive, I need to have some power behind the deck.
To counter or not to counter. Which spells should and should not be countered, whether it be with regards to my own personal agenda for the board state, or the political one?
Any resources (articles, websites, forums, etc...) for a mono blue player?
Does bluffing really matter?
It seems like the issue is that you're trying to play a semi competitive deck at a casual table. And more than that, It's a control deck that drags the game out.
Playing a control deck is ok when you're not the only buy at the table playing a control deck. But when you're trying to play "world police", of course people are just going to try to kill you and then go back to what they were doing.
I would recommend building a different deck (if you haven't already) and only use your Talrand deck now and then. And let people know when you're using it so that they can pick decks accordingly.
As someone who has two competitive decks but only really plays casually, I know the feeling. But ultimately you have to put the group first in this kind of situation. As I mentioned, you can still play your deck every now and then, but it's about moderation.
February 4, 2017 4:15 p.m.
I've never thought of countering someone's stuff so they wouldn't hurt me. The profiteer seems like a fun card too :)
It's a semi-competitive environment. Infinite combos are allowed, people play Tier 2 commanders, relatively good/expensive cards, etc...
Honestly this is my "casual" deck because I have a GAA4 deck and a Captain Sisay deck which can pull some wins are early as turn 4 or 5.
February 4, 2017 4:23 p.m.
If that's the case then it's just because you're playing the aggro deck. At what turn do you start swinging with drakes? It's kind of like playing against an Edric deck in that you have both the board presence (threat) and the control (which is annoying). The deck's very design paints a target on your head.
February 4, 2017 4:34 p.m.
It's usually not until turns 6-8. I usually play Talrand on turn 4 (or 3 with ramp). I have to decide between playing him on turn 4 with no protection or turn 5 and 6 with protection. Therefore it takes a while to actually acquire the Drake army
February 4, 2017 4:53 p.m.
In my experience playing with semi-competitive, VERY political players, the entirety of the political subgame is rhetoric. You just need to explain over and over why what you're doing is fair. Are you keeping in check the aggro or combo deck that may be running over the rest of the table? Are you using spells to protect yourself because you don't have creatures and are the obvious attack (read: if you don't attack me, I won't counter your spells)?
If you're making a move and you can't give some kind of excuse like this, the best political idea is to not do it. Pretend like you're not drawing well, point out other threats on the board that may need answering, threaten, whatever you have to do.
WHen you're a mono-blue deck, you need to craft your explanations keeping in mind that 1) people would rather have their permanents destroyed than countered, and 2) you don't play early creatures, so you're an easy attack. From what I've seen (I'm usually the early attacker), the best angle to use is: "you guys are a bigger threat to each other than I am to you. Player X has a huge board. I only counter what will kill me/I won't counter what you won't use against me."
It's also worth remembering that there are other things people hate in EDH that you can play up as threats: land destruction, infinite combos, boardwipes, aggro, stax.
I hate EDH politics. Usually I just build a deck that can ignore politicking, and then I end up at the competitive tables...
So TL;DR: It's not what you do, it's how you convince people it's fair.
February 4, 2017 5:39 p.m. Edited.
joshuaizac says... #8
I can't count how many people I've heard say "F**K Blue," yet I've never heard this said of any other color....people may be intimidated by a specific deck/commander ect ... but no other color has as many haters as does B L U E. My cousin nearly refuses to play it, and hates to play against it.
Looking at it from a psychological standpoint, any give color has the potential to disrupt another decks game plan to some degree or another. But almost exclusively (yea there's a few stax/tax/land/hando decks ect but...), blue is capable of denying other players of even playing magic. Period. It's one thing to actually play your spells and then have them answered after they hit the board, it's something else to just outright prevent someone from actually playing the game. It's about as much fun as watching someone take three or more turns in a row, taking 5-10 minutes per turn. This is why people hate blue.
February 4, 2017 5:39 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #9
Bluffing is huge. Free counterspells like Force of Will, Pact of Negation, and Daze all factor into the political game. Once they know you have them, people are more likely to tread carefully.
Form alliances. Guarantee a player that you won't counter spells that don't win them the game on the spot. Don't counter small things that don't matter. It's tempting to counter someone's Sol Ring with a t1 Force Spike or Stifle a fetch, but don't.
Also, try to play some creative blue cards as well, that players either haven't seen before, help everyone, or create interesting interactions in the game. Things like Dream Halls or Dictate of Kruphix.
I usually don't play mono-blue, but I have some EDH decks with a lot of counterspells in them, so that's my advice.
February 4, 2017 6:10 p.m.
1) As a control player who doesn't like to rely on infinite combos (except when I play Zedruu), I can tell you this: I hunt the blue player on principle, unless a bigger threat is imminent! Blue players are usually the ones who look for a combo win as their primary way of, well, winning the game. The reason I "hate" blue players is not the fear of them countering my stuff. Rather, it's the capacity in which they can protect their combo from disruption with said counterspells that sets blue as a favourable target. The lower their life total the more resources they need to keep up for ensurance, the less stuff they have on board the lesser their potential to explode and/or interfere.
2)You cannot. If you are the only blue player on the table, you will be hated out. So use Propaganda and the plethora of blue's pillow fort cards to make it a pain for everyone to attack you. I also advice against playing a counterspell.dec in multiplayer as it is very sensitive to people ganging up on you, since your counterspells are in effect 1 for 1 trades. Problem is you won't have enough resources in mana and spells to effectively control 3 players through permission. There are other forms of control and blue has a lot of them! And of course you will run your big blue spells! I wouldn't ask a black player not to use reanimation spells on big creatures, or green not to ramp in exactly the same manner. Anyone who does so is a hypocrite!
3)I don't run a lot of counters in my decks but a lot of my friends do (one of them runs a Tarland deck as well but he has 7-8 of them). You should counter anything that is an immediate threat to you. A counterspell is a "spot removal" spell as far as blue is concerned. Make you rationale clear to the table when you counter something. Secondly, you can counter something that affects the whole table in a negative way. For example an Asceticism. This is bad for everyone so countering it makes some "friends" and prevents a player from getting out of control (heh, puns!). Never counter something that doesn't affect you. By doing so, you are spending a precious resource of yours for someone else, just to earn an alliance easily forgotten (love 4) No idea... Sorry :( 5) Yes! Bluff often but do it smartly. Blatant lies and breaking of alliances is a fast track to losing everyone's trust. There's a lot of power behind a blue mage who has 2 islands untapped. Everyone slows down and tries to play around that, just in case (reference to why people hate on blue regardless). Slowing down is what control aims to do anyway so do it even if you don't have anything.
February 4, 2017 7:28 p.m.
Removing some of your group-hate cards will help. Cards like Back to Basics and Invoke Prejudice are very strong, but players hate to have their ability to play their cards restricted. If they can't destroy the enchantment/artifact, they'll attack you to get rid of it before you cast more prison pieces.
February 5, 2017 5:04 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #12
As mentioned several times above people hate control. It locks down a game to the point that no one is playing magic.
As for politics bluff counters. Tell opponents if you do X for me I won't counter Y.
I personally target one control player in my group more than another because he plays oppressive control that drags out a game forever. If you are going to drag out a game make sure it's worthwhile don't just drag things out to drag them out.
As for what to counter be aware of board threats. If you are playing against a black deck and see a Grave Pact it's in your favor to counter because other people will be grateful. Tooth and Nail wins games almost on the spot so countering that is also pretty strong. Threat analysis is a fantastic skill that you build over time especially if you play in a play group.
enpc is also correct in stating not to overplaying a deck. If you like a deck and it's too good for the table don't bust it out every game. I have a Yisan deck I love but rarely get to play it because it's too good. Another Friend has a similar issue with his Animar deck. We will bust out our favorite decks on rare occasions. Another friend has a roon deck he almost always plays because he likes decks that draw a lot of heat and roon can lock people out. No one likes playing against him because he doesn't end games if he draws them out he just prevents everyone from ending things. Lately he decided to stop bringing other decks and only play roon so he becomes the automatic target.
Tldr know your play group. Learn how to analyze threats to actually counter, and learn when to lie about a counter
February 5, 2017 9:38 a.m.
Thank you everyone for your detailed responses. I will keep all of that in mind.I have an upcoming tournament so I will be sure to utilize all of your suggestions then. Thanks again!
February 5, 2017 11:04 p.m.
Hey, just want to chime in on the question of what to counter and such. I feel like a lot of people at my LGS counter things that are annoying and strong on the surface too often. Tbh in this format I think you should counter only a game winning combo piece. There's way too much recursion and against 3 players you are really better off holding onto every Counterspell until someone is officially casting a spell that will win the game.
That is just from my experience, countering a Sheoldred, Whispering One when the next turn someone plays a Reanimate is frustrating. Save it for Phyrexian Altar instead and you literally just took out a win condition. Besides, most aggro cards will be responded to by the table. Strong creatures are exiled/wiped, enchantments and artifacts are typically taken care of by someone playing white/red, but a player beginning a infinite turn combo is generally up to the blue players to stop. Just keep in mind the other players are holding removal too. Anyways good luck.
Chandrian says... #2
I'll give my view on some of your questions:
1) In my playgroup we also have a monoblue player, he's playing an improved version of the C14 deck, with Teferi, Temporal Archmage as the commander. We're a casual group, and the reason some of us hate a bit more on that deck than on others is that... that deck has the most wins. He manages to make the game last long enough (either by counters, throwing stuff back into your hand and some decent skills in politics), until the other decks run out of gas and he can do a major turn (also he tends to hate on me, so I hate on him too ;) :p )
3) What to counter is tricky... for some reason people feel really bad when their stuff gets countered... you won't be able to change that feeling. However, what you should do is use the ability to counter stuff as a deterrent for people to target you. Another player in our group recently played Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer and this really made him (a much more agressive player) aware of how to make/break alliances
February 4, 2017 3:39 p.m.