UB: LOTR
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 14, 2023, 8:06 p.m. by Coward_Token
Spoiler season starts at May 30
So this is one of the few UB:s I'll reluctantly admit that I kinda like, since Tolkien's work doesn't clash too much with MTG's more generic fantasy flavor. From what I'm seen, I'm actually kind of dissapointed that that they're not doing more to differentiate their character designs from the Jacksson movies?
My card thoughts Show
Weird how we have Aragorn and Arwen, Wed but no Aragorn and Arwen, Mon. Or Tue or Thu or Fri or Sat or Sun.
March 14, 2023 9:51 p.m.
First off, I would have sworn Reprieve was already a card name from, like, Stronghold or Weatherlight or something.
Riders of Rohan = horsemanship? Maybe? Pretty please? Probably not...
Niko9 Since we have a couple cards in line for Frodo and Sam, I think character development will simply be shown through different cards. The reveal barely gets into double digits for new cards, so there's lots of available space. I hope it gets used well. Not a perfect solution, but unless they surprise us with UB: The Hobbit or UB: Silmarillion, it's the best we're going to get.
Any speculation on the potential market value of the One of One Ring?
March 14, 2023 10:25 p.m.
I guess it depends on how they roll out the one ring. The best thing I can think of them doing with it is to give it to someone popular in the magic content space, like command zone, the professor, somebody like that, and have there be a stipulation with the card that it must always be an ante card, that way they create a cross creator game series that people would watch to see who wins it next. It would hype magic immensely : )
But in reality, it will probably hit the market somehow, get sold once, and then sit in a slab somewhere.
March 14, 2023 10:54 p.m.
Is it wrong I'm giggling at the idea that the One Of One Ring will end up hidden in the next $300k worth of cards that go right to a dump?
March 14, 2023 11:27 p.m.
I think the one ring will end up with some random dude, he will get waylaid, where it will fall into a river & await someone to pick it up
March 15, 2023 8:35 a.m.
With the important note that it is still early in spoiler season at the time of writing, I have been rather disappointed with the designs of the unique cards thus far. A lot of them feel like a half-hearted attempt on a fan card thread by someone who only vaguely remembers the books. Take, for example, Gandalf the Grey--the stat block feels like a generic Izzet spellslinger, and thus fails to capture any real feel of the character. Or Tom Bombadil having the "God" creature type. Bombadil is one of the most mysterious characters in the lore, and even Tolkien was reluctant to talk about him. One of the few times Tolkien did speak up was to expressly disavow the notion that Bombadil was a God stand-in (recall, Tolkien was devout Catholic and the world of Arda is likewise monotheistic).
The reskinned cards, such as Gorgoroth as Wasteland and The Bridge of Khazad-dûm as Ensnaring Bridge are excellent and, frankly, do a better job representing the books than anything created specifically for this set. The two instants we have seen thus far also seems solid and do a good job capturing the books' general feel (plus, I am glad to see Reprieve referencing one of my favorite chapters of the book).
Overall, looking forward to seeing more spoilers--especially non-Legendary Creature spoilers--and hope things improve as we see more cards.
March 15, 2023 10:53 a.m.
I completely agree on Gandalf and Tom Bombadil. To be fair Gandalf does do a lot more spellcasting in the books, but still, it's not very fitting at all. He's more of a traveling watcher, someone who studies every corner of the world. I think it would have been fun to have Gandalf go to use an effect and then go into exile, then have effects that can be activated from exile to do something and also bring him back, to give him the feel of, he's off doing something but will come back to effect the grander story, like he did for most of The Hobbit. His current design would honestly be a better fit for Saruman, just in different colors.
And yeah, Tom Bombadil. I feel like it was a character they wanted to add to be like, hey we know the book lore, but then they didn't really. Not only with the god subtype, but also that the card very much alludes to being a stand in for the author, which Tolkien very specifically didn't want to be the case, as he wanted himself and his wife to be characters from his poems (if I'm remembering this all correctly).
March 15, 2023 11:23 a.m.
Bombadil is just another WUBRG chase best-of-niche card. I keep shouting those kids off my lawn about WUBRG "better-than-you-at_" but Bombadil-ilk greases the gears
March 15, 2023 12:16 p.m.
And what about for Gandalf? I feel like wizards can be any color in magic and he has both light magic and a love of traveling and the world.
March 15, 2023 12:26 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #13
They could have side-stepped the overdefining of Bombadil by making him the set's only Planeswalker
March 15, 2023 12:33 p.m.
I just hope they don't give the "Bombadil" treatment to any tropes that I currently love playing.. It may make it a little difficult to keep playing (or at least improving) decks that are amazing in their tropes if they just print something where someone automatically (& legitimately) asks: why not just play that WUBRG better version? Happy I don't have a saga-focused commander that just got made mostly obsolete.
I'd say my focus has been more mechanical, than MEARTH-fan perspective.
March 15, 2023 12:47 p.m.
From one perspective, these WUBRG, set-popularity enhancers open new lines of play & deck building. However, there is some detracting from that occurs with them too & I don't see too much discussion centering around that. This type of WUBRG-crap can really take away from people that love the idea of focus/restriction & strong identity if they have a long-standing labor of love deck that is just suddenly obsolete unless they now want to break-the-bank on a new mana-base. A lot of people will say the ole: "so what? play suboptimal", but I think the issue can run deeper than that. I just don't want to submit over a page worth of off-the-rails discourse
March 15, 2023 12:58 p.m.
Since now two users have alluded to this and I expect others might try to raise the spectre of race swapping moving forward, let's just dispose of this matter right now.
Tolkien would be 100% fine with his characters being race swapped.
We know this because he said as much in a 1960 speech at Oxford. Tolkien grew up in Apartheid South Africa and that gave him a "hatred of aparthide in [his] very bones". He was a firm believer that segregation was one of the greatest evils in the world. In particular, he "detest[ed] the segregation of Language and Literature"--he believed that literature belonged to everybody, regardless of skin colour, and folks should not gatekeep literature. He "did not care" which books and characters folks wanted to consider "White"--he wanted everyone to be able to delight in the shared experience we call literature.
We know this because Tolkien explicitly condemned racism within the Lord of the Rings. Two of his characters--Legolas and Gimli--begin the novel incredibly racist toward the other's race. Throughout the novel, Tolkien uses them as a vehicle to condemn racism, showing that prejudice is a falsity that falls apart once you get to know the person you thought you hated.
We now this because, in letters, Tolkien wrote about how he wanted to create a mythology others could join in. He was very clear that he always envisioned his novels as just the beginning, and that he dreamed other authors might use his world and use it to explore their own perspectives. He even lay the foundation for other authors to contribute their own perspectives--that is part of the reason he wrote his novels in such wildly different tones and manners, so others' contributions would not feel out of place.
We know this because Tolkien was once offered a large amount of money by the Nazi party to have The Hobbit translated into Germany--all he had to do was affirm that his novel was written by an Aryan. Tolkien refused--he would not compromise his belief that the book should belong to everyone by allowing the Nazis to add a forward that pushed their own racist political agenda.
So, let's be very clear on this: Tolkien was always "woke". Anyone who thinks he would be upset over race swapping the characters he wrote fundamentally does not understand the man.
March 15, 2023 2:57 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #17
Thank you for the excellent response Caerwyn, very well written.
March 15, 2023 3:14 p.m.
Caerwyn Thank you so much, I was trying to type up a similar comment but you said it better than I ever could have.
March 15, 2023 3:18 p.m.
user:CoarselyRefined, with respect, your post is so full of error that it could be considered nonsensical at best or concern trolling at worst.
Let's start with your point about the Haradrim. For starters, Tolkien did not characterize them as savages--and was very careful to describe their fighting as "a battle of Men against Men", showing a level of natural equality between the men of Gondor and the men of the South. Tolkien even goes so far as to humanize these men from a foreign land, explicitly stating that they may very well be good, but led astray by "lies or threats".
Your point about Tolkien's age when he left South Africa is, of course, only valid if one ignores the whole of human psychology, literature, and history. The place where one is born has a profound impact upon one's life--and even people who leave at a young age still are marked by their childhood experiences and their lifelong connection to their homeland. After all, leaving does not mean you do not stop loving your homeland--and it certainly does not mean you stop paying attention to events that are occurring in your homeland.
Your point about his 1960s speech proves you did not read my post, which explicitly pointed out examples from within (a) within the LotR books themselves; (b) in his private letters that only came out because of others; and (c) in the 1930s, when being racist (and supporting the Nazis) was fairly in vogue in England. Trying to say his anti-racist views came after his books, after WW2, and after civil rights is not only wrong, it is wrong in a way that was already addressed had you bothered to read.
Your points about Ghandi are laughable at best. For starters, Ghandi was not born a slave--he was the son of the chief minister of his home state. Additionally, while he did live in South Africa for a number of years after obtaining his law degree, he was not born in South Africa in the slightest. You also seem to be confusing the caste system of India with Apartheid in South Africa--this should be obvious, but they are different countries.
Feel free to read my post again (or, more likely, for the first time), reread Tolkien's actual works, or read more about the man himself. You'll be hard pressed to find any examples of him being anything other than a consistent voice against racism and oppression.
March 15, 2023 4:03 p.m. Edited.
All I know is this set is gonna make me go fucking bankrupt. I'm gonna be chasing those sol rings baby! I'm gonna end up like the dwarfs and just keep digging till a Balrog gets. Or I'll end up a foul creature like smegol or a wraith. Any of the universes beyond stuff has left a bad taste in my mouth but I can't help but get excited like a child for this set
March 15, 2023 4:52 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #21
Feels like a flavor fail that Mount Doom can't be played with Partners!Frodo & Sam. And would it really be too powerful if the board wipe could use any artifact? You're still sacing a land and paying seven mana.
I wonder if there'll be a Smeagol // Gollum card that transform back and forth? Smeagol being red, Gollum black. (I feel that, as a junkie cannibal that likes riddles, he was both before he befriended Frodo.)
Tom Bombadil's Saga Cascade can only trigger once per turn, but that can be bent a bit with proliferate
The One Ring's ETB protection potentially gives effective life gain by preventing damage, helping mitigating the impact of burdens. (Also, it took me way to long to realize that it's supposed to represent invisibility.)
The elven Sol Ring art looks like it features a disembodied hand
March 15, 2023 6:18 p.m.
Spiders will hopefully be potent, as they are in Middle Earth. Ungoliant is the Jund spider I want
March 15, 2023 9:09 p.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #23
Gleeock agreed, I'm excited now for the big spiders now that you mention it. Hopefully a new legendary one.
March 16, 2023 1:14 p.m.
Gleeock - I expect we will see a Shelob; I think there is an effectively zero percent chance of Ungoliant.
The legal rights to Tolkien’s works are notoriously messy - Tolkien’s descendants have spent decades licensing out the rights piecemeal, never giving anyone a blanket right to the entire set of works. That means the estate is either not going to license out the Silmarillion to Wizards alongside the LotR rights, would charge them an exorbitant amount for both (which is unlikely to bring Wizards much return on their investment, so wouldn’t be worth the additional cost), or cannot license out the rights because they licensed out the game rights to someone else already.
Regardless, I think it is pretty safe to assume that Wizards does not have the rights to anything beyond the Lord of the Rings (and possibly parts of the Hobbit).
Ungoliant is only mentioned in passing in Lord of the Rings itself, and, even then, she is only mentioned as a secondary epithet: “But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."
As such, while we are all but certain to receive a Shelob card, there is effectively no chance of an Ungoliant one——not only would Ungoliant be from the wrong time period, Wizards very likely does not have the legal license to make such a card.
March 16, 2023 1:38 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #25
Mishra, Eminent One is another painless way of paying for Mount Doom wiping
March 16, 2023 2:32 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #26
Oh and the by the "elven Sol Ring" I actually meant the dwarven one; the light kinda hides the beginning of the upper part of the arm so that's why I found it to be unintentionally Thing-like
March 16, 2023 4:15 p.m.
I feel like the "Magic" of Middle Earth is different than some of the more overt sorcery of MtG. Personally, I feel like classic spells are sortof nerfed in Middle Earth, but the power of enchantments are simply off the charts.
Morgoth screamed a few ages ago? Yeah now the land is twisted forever. Throw some discord into a worldsong & see what happens. Seems like a lot of world-altering types of magics occur on Middle Earth.
March 16, 2023 11:32 p.m.
I can't tell if the One Ring one-of-one printing is cool or if it's a hilariously tacky/bad attempt to generate hype. As for the actual cards, something about the art for this set so far seems... off. I don't know how better to describe it, though.
In any event, I've never seen the movies or read the books so I'm not terribly interested.
March 17, 2023 9:25 a.m.
KBK7101 Ha, yeah as much as it's kind of cool it's also like, of course you did this. If they did a one of one card before all the bad press, it would have just seemed awesome, now it's hard up.
Definitely check out the movies sometime though. The Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings (not hobbit!) movies are great. It's kind of like Love Actually just for friendship. Like, they show many different characters that all become different kinds of friends in different kinds of ways, and there is action and stuff too. Original movies, not extended, and just the Lord of the Rings, they're still amazing. Just don't watch in super high def because it makes the special effects look insane : )
March 17, 2023 4:28 p.m.
As a huge LotR fan for decades I am not a fan of how it looks like they are jamming characters into the color-pie. Gandalf as an Izzet spellslinger? No way. Gandalf wields a sword more than he wields spells. If you have to jam him into a color combo I'd go with Boros, or maybe if you pushed me Jeskai. Gandalf is all about fire, and one of his roles is to ignite the passions of the free peoples of Middle Earth to rise up and fight against evil. And he does that so that peace and harmony and an ordered way of life can be put in place for everyone.
Also, Sauron should be Dimir or Grixis (possibly Esper). He is the great deceiver. Dimir are the colors of lies and deception. Rakdos is evil, but it's in your face evil. That isn't Sauron. Sure it fits the orcs, but Sauron himself desires power and control so he can impose his vision of order upon Middle Earth (really all of Arda as he would challenge the Valar if he thought he could win).
And I'd throw out that while Strider might be Selesnya or even mono-green, once he morphs into Aragorn and eventually King Elessar, Aragorn probably ends up Bant. Tolkien really talks up Aragorn's wisdom and knowledge so I think Bant would probably be the right ending place for him.
March 18, 2023 1:31 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #31
Abaques, I think it was mentioned in the initial reveal stream that the different characters will have multiple cards, for various versions of themselves throught the books.
From what was mentioned, each version will have a different color identity, and a different rarity; uncommon/mono- White Samwise & mythic/Selesnya Samwise, for example.
Gandalf alone is getting 3-4 versions: Friend of the Shire, the White, the Grey, and a version that was hinted at being in one of the commander pre-cons.
March 18, 2023 1:50 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #32
Precon!Sauron will be Grixis at least:
As for Aragorn being blue... I don't think wisdom is exclusive to blue. Blue is more about being wise for it's own sake rather than as a means for good? Been a long time since I read the books, but while Aragorn is learned, he's not actively studious?
March 18, 2023 5:15 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #33
March 18, 2023 5:22 a.m.
Now if we can just get a 'Manos: The Hands of Fate', themed set
March 18, 2023 9:28 a.m.
Crow-Umbra are you named after THE Crow T. Robot? or just a happy little coincidence in the solidarity of crows? :)
March 18, 2023 11:16 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #36
Lol unfortunately not a MST3K reference Gleeock. I used to watch MST3K on occasion when I was growing up.
I just generally love corvids, they're my favorite animals. My first favorite deck in my early days of MtG was tabletop jank Bogles deck with Hyena Umbra & friends. Totem Armor was one of my first loves. My username is as much a tribute to crows & Totem Armor as it is a hope to get an actual "Crow Umbra" card printed some day.
Back to the topic at hand- I'm very intrigued about the Riders of Rohan precon deck. I'm looking forward to their explanation on why they chose Jeskai for them.
March 18, 2023 12:27 p.m.
Coward_Token Well, wisdom isn't the only reason. Aragorn is the king of Gondor, which is the successor to Númenor, which was an island kingdom and for whom the sea was vitally important. Gondor inherited a lot of this approach to the sea. Gondor's fleets played a big role in it's long series of wars with the men of Harad. Tolkien certainly viewed sailing and the sea as noble. Aragorn can trace his lineage back to Eärendil the Mariner, who is arguably the greatest hero in any of Tolkien's works. And for Aragorn directly, in his younger days he led a fleet of Gondorian ships (while in disguise) to attack the Corsairs of Umbar who were threatening Gondor. So I'd argue that there is ample evidence to support that Aragorn (at least as his final form of King Elessar) would have some blue in his color identity.
Crow-Umbra I did see that they will have multiple versions of characters, which I think is a reasonable solution, though it could certainly be over done. I'll admit to some concern over 3-4 versions of Gandalf. Within the context of LotR there are really only two versions of Gandalf that have any interest from a game perspective. Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White (the Gandalf after the Ring is destroyed is different, but not very interesting as a card as by then his struggle is essentially complete).
March 18, 2023 12:46 p.m.
Crow-Umbra I have no idea why Rohan would be Jeskai. I just can't see how that fits. Rohan would probably be Boros or maybe Naya.
Also, except for Frodo and Bilbo, the hobbits wouldn't have any black in their color identity. The hobbits of the Shire are very clearly Selesnya (the Conclave would love it there). The only black that would come into play with any hobbits comes from the temptation and corruption of the Ring itself.
Grixis is right for Mordor and Simic is right for the Elves, so at least there is that.
March 18, 2023 12:58 p.m.
Level-up Frodo is going to bust some skulls in Breena, the Demagogue Regardless of ring tempting action :) whatever that means
March 18, 2023 1:06 p.m.
Has there been any mention of Gimli yet? If not, I'd like to see something that's not Equipment, but I'm having a hard time coming up with anything that's not some kind of Boros (maybe Naya) combat. Most modern fantasy Dwarves (or dwarfs) are small variations of Tolkien's, and Bruenor Battlehammer, from what I know of him, would fit pretty much directly into this world, combining Forgotten Realms, Magic: the Gathering, and Lord of the Rings into one bearded clanking package.
March 18, 2023 1:10 p.m.
Well, Gimli was pretty good at destroying artifacts/structures & had engineering knowledge to boot, so they could run off those concepts
March 18, 2023 1:24 p.m.
Abaques I think the closer you get to the OG high-elves, the more you get. I see those guys/gals as being closer to angels or spirits of light, they are all by the light for the light. But, yeah, as they get a little more corporeal in their affairs through the ages, they do seem to become more Sylvan & maybe more .
March 18, 2023 1:27 p.m.
I suppose that "going corporeal" is part of their problem with hanging on Middle Earth too. Good old fading light, maybe reflects their move away from I guess
March 18, 2023 1:28 p.m.
Gleeock Yeah, I'd totally agree with that. Individual elves might have different color identities, for instance I'd have Elrond as Azorius, but as a whole for the Third Age I think Simmic is right.
March 18, 2023 2:04 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #45
Abaques: Rather than the mana cost, he could just have an activated ability like ": Target creature you control can’t be blocked this turn." :P
Tolkien elves are also more artifice-y than most MtG ones (with e.g. Meria being the exception that confirms the rule)
Gimli feels mono-R? idk if he ever does anything especially moral/charitable to anyone who's not already a friend of his, and he likes fighting for its own sake.
March 18, 2023 2:40 p.m.
Coward_Token Yeah, I agree that an activated ability would be fine for handling the color identity. They did that with Frodo and I think it's the right way to treat the Ring's influence in particular.
And you're spot on about the elves being artificers. Really in Tolkien's works different groups of elves end up feeling very different from other groups, although most of that takes place prior to the events of LotR (and the Hobbit). The First and Second Ages are where all the really epic stuff happens. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields is really quite quaint when compared to the Dagor Bragollach.
And yes, I agree that Gimli is probably mono-red. Legolas strikes me as mono-green. They have a great Gruul-mance.
March 18, 2023 3:01 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #47
For a set that I had my doubts about, the spoilers are knocking it out of the park from a LotR lore perspective. Whomever is behind set design really seems like a fan of the books and this whole set feels like a love letter to the IP. Using Saga's to tell stories from Tolkien's other works is pretty genius as well.
From a commander perspective, the set looks great as well. Bilbo, Birthday Celebrant and Sauron, the Dark Lord both look like a blast to build around.
I am excited to jam Last March of the Ents into my Zopandrel, Hunger Dominus deck as another Majestic Genesis type effect.
I don't see much of a modern impact here besides maybe the legendary land cycle, but then again, I don't play too much modern so I could be missing something.
June 1, 2023 6:02 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor From the perspective of the card names and some flavor text I'll agree that they are representing the lore well, but mechanically I think that they have several major fails, chiefly the 'ring tempts you' mechanic is terrible at representing the power and temptation of The One Ring.
June 1, 2023 10:05 p.m.
I’ll be honest, as a major LotR fan, I think the flavour has been mediocre at best. A lot of the cards feel lazy - “hobbits like food, we’ll just do good mechanics”; “this person does combat, let’s staple some combat on it”; “this person travels a lot, so let’s go with a mediocre landfall ability.” Not to mention the incredibly ignorant typing on Bombadil.
There are a few standouts which do a good job meshing mechanics and the source material, but, on the whole, it feels like a Magic set where they slapped some LotR names on regular Magic cards.
Mechanically, super not thrilled with the Ring - that kind of outside the game mechanic (like Dungeons and Attractions) leads to poor gameplay and annoyances to opponents.
That said, the flavour on non-creatures has been pretty decent, and the art has been fantastic.
June 1, 2023 11:14 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #50
Caerwyn and Abaques - I am curious what mechanics you two would have preferred being used here? I agree that the ring mechanic is a miss as it should not be pure upside and most of the Witch-king of Angmar related cards are disappointing (besides the 9 wraiths, those are cool). Were you looking for new mechanics for this set? Or just different mechanics showing up?
I personally believe they have been quite clever with some of their choices. Food makes perfect sense for the hobbits, as well as the Ascendant Spirit build for one of the Frodo cards. Admittedly, I would've preferred to see each major halfling character get one as they all "leveled up" considerably during the LotR trilogy, but I do think that is a cool way to depict their growth. The Balrog card, as disappointing as it is, has awesome flavor and the prevailing legendary matters theme makes sense.
I like the fact that this is clearly a magic set in functionality with nothing too crazy added so far. Bringing the feel of books through the art, card naming choices, and flavor text seems like smart design (kind of like the WH40k set). But that is my opinion, I am just curious to hear what you would've preferred?
Niko9 says... #2
I don't know, I'm a huge fan of the books and the Peter Jackson LOTR movies, and I want to like this, but it all feels ham-fisted, and I think it's because one of the most enjoyable parts of the series is the character development, and at best you can make a card a nod to that, and at worst it just misses. Something like Warhammer or Adventures in the Forgotten Realms seems to make more sense to me because a monster in the monster manual is pretty single note anyways, maybe they have a cool ability or feat or something, and that translates well to a card.
I have no ideas on how they could have done it better. From the standpoint of how the material melds with magic, it's one of the best they've done. From the standpoint of how the material looks as a magic card...ouch...
March 14, 2023 8:35 p.m.