[Community Discussion]: Mind games
General forum
Posted on Jan. 19, 2014, 3:47 p.m. by Epochalyptik
There was a recent conversation about whether using psychological tricks during a game is a "legitimate" way to play.
Example 1
Urza has a few Forest
s, some nonbasics, and a Dryad Arbor
. He splays the Dryad Arbor
with the other lands. We'll assume the name is readable, and the lands aren't stacked in a vertical or almost-vertical pile such that it's impossible to tell what the cards are. From a rules perspective, the cards are all identifiable, and nothing is being concealed.
Example 2
Urza plays a deck comprised of all foil Russian cards. According to the rules, the cards are still all identifiable, and any player may ask for the Oracle text of a card in a public zone. Above FNM level, Urza is not required to provide an answer. At all levels, any answer Urza does provide must be truthful and not misleading. If Urza does not provide the information (assuming Competitive REL or higher), his opponent is welcome to look the Oracle text up using a mutually-visible electronic device, and he is also welcome to request Oracle text from a judge.
In each example, assume Urza is following the rules. He is not concealing information, misinforming his opponent, or cheating. It is each player's responsibility to read the game state for himself or herself.
Now for the question: is this kind of play "acceptable," or is it illegitimate? Does the "acceptability" change depending on the level of competition?
I understand this is a volatile topic for some players, so please keep this CD as civil as all of our past ones have been,
Epochalyptik says... #3
The MTG Tournament Rules don't specify whether an extension is acceptable or not, but this example is not one of the few given reasons for issuing an extension. That doesn't mean it's not possible, though.
January 19, 2014 3:58 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #4
I suppose it is acceptable, but if Urza (2nd) is constantly responding to the opposing player with either "nope ask a judge" or " , ", then that judge is going to get mighty frustrated constantly having to come over. So you might just be digging your own grave.
As for the other example placing a Dryad Arbor in amongst your lands is perfectly acceptable, as long as it's not hidden. It is after all a land. Any other creature? I would argue that as most players would expect the opponents battlefield to be laid out as a horizontal strip of lands with every other type of permanent placed in front of that line that you should inform your opponent of your "unique" set up so as not to deliberately confuse them.
January 19, 2014 4:01 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #5
"," was supposed to be something in russian. Dunno why it didn't make it. :)
January 19, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@Schuesseled: Ah! Here is the heart of the debate!
Is it unacceptable to use tactics like these to deliberately confuse an opponent (provided you are not breaking the rules)?
Some people keep Birds of Paradise and Llanowar Elves in their land strips. Technically, there is no rule mandating that cards must be arranged by type. Players may arrange their cards however they like, provided each card is visibly identifiable (identifiable in this case means you can tell where the card is and what it is, even if you can't read it and even if you don't know what it does by memory; you can always ask to read a card in a public zone).
The overarching concept here is that our example player, Urza, is using things like foil cards and careful battlefield arrangement to try to get his opponent to misread the board. Nothing he does breaks the rules. He wants his opponent to make a miscalulation.
Furthermore, does the "acceptability" of the example depend on the environment and REL? We can surmise based on player expectations that things like this would be more questionable (in terms of sportsmanship and courtesy) at FNM level, but what about competitive?
January 19, 2014 4:07 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #7
I play magic almost exclusively at the FNM level and, as such, expect a certain amount of transparency concerning the board state. In my meta, players generally verbally announce cards as they play them, including lands. It would very much be considered a "dick move" if someone at my FNM were to try to sneak a Dryad Arbor in with all his forests.
If my opponent were playing all foil Russian cards, I would personally expect them to help me understand what each of those cards do, assuming I hadn't seen them before or needed some clarification. Again, this is at the FNM level.
At a higher-level tournament, all of that goes out the window. I would expect a certain amount of respect from my opponent, and would probably be upset if I didn't notice a sneaky Dryad Arbor , but tournaments are meant to be competitive. I would never expect my opponent to actively help me understand the board state.
I also have no issues with situation #2 at the competitive level, for a different reason. When you go to a competitive event, it is assumed that you came prepared. Part of that preparation is learning and understanding the metagame and which cards the common decks play. A foreign printing of a card should not be expected to throw off a player at the competitive level.
That isn't to say that I wouldn't be upset if either situation happened against me at a competitive tournament. I would absolutely be salty about it, especially in the case of situation #1. I just wouldn't have a justifiable argument against it at that level.
January 19, 2014 4:15 p.m.
In the first scenario, the opponent should be aware that he casted Dryad Arbor
and that it remains on the field. How many players hide their Mutavault
amongst there land?
As for the 2nd scenario why put whole deck in foreign languages in first place other than to throw people off? It would be just time consumption to have to find out what every card does. So if the plan to win by conceding due to having to look up ever card. Better learn to speak Russian to get the full effect.
January 19, 2014 4:20 p.m.
Also if that was the case for scenario 2, a dick move would be get the box and sleeves RTFC, (read the fukin card)
January 19, 2014 4:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
(I'm about to go off on a writer's tangent.)
I think the rhetoric is kind of interesting here. Do players "hide" their Mutavault and Dryad Arbor because they're purposefully mixing them in with the other lands, or do we have an expectation that lands like these will be separated somehow?
January 19, 2014 4:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
@REPRESSER, post #8: I've actually entertained the thought of doing exactly that with my EDH deck. More for the lulz than anything else, though.
January 19, 2014 4:34 p.m.
It is acceptable. People like to project their ideals on others and that is what is unfair and wrong. I read the original thread and that is what I took from it. People interpreting the rules with what they feel is honorable.
January 19, 2014 4:39 p.m.
I just think it's unnecessarily rude to not tell them the card rules. The land-creature sneakiness is fine, and I generally utilize all kinds of mind games when I play. However, to me not explaining unclear cards seems like delay of game or poor/unsportsmanlike conduct.
January 19, 2014 4:40 p.m.
Hallowed_Titan says... #14
I have no issues with the examples. Some of my group dont scan the board as frequently as I do and they sure miss things. I try to preach board awareness but it hasnt helped much.
January 19, 2014 4:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik you could get little laugh every time some one asked you what's that card do? Then you could refer them to the sleeves, and get another little chuckle.
January 19, 2014 4:43 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #16
As was alluded in the original post, there are different standards/expectations for helpfulness between Regular and Competitive/Professional events, and as long as the player is fulfilling the appropriate expectations I'm okay with it.
Regular events showcase Magic as a hobby and a game, but Competitive and Professional events are where it turns into a sport. Finding ways to mess with your opponent within the letter of the rules is part of the metagame of any sport, even if actually doing it is often regarded as a jerk move.
January 19, 2014 4:45 p.m.
The examples given are about deliberately making the game state difficult to read, but as all the cards are in public zones, they can be looked at / asked about, so I have no problem with it. I do find it annoying to have to regularly ask my opponent what things are what and what he has on the field, etc.
I like for games to be interactive between the players; many competitive players I've played against refuse to interact with me in anyway, they won't speak to me, won't announce verbally any plays that they make, don't answer questions - silent poker face. It's as if I'm not there and they are playing solitaire. That makes the game very unfun. I understand that serious competitors don't care about fun, they just want to win, have the tournament be over, and collect their prizes.
It once got to the point where before starting a match with a new opponent, I would lie and say that my vision was very poor and that they would have to read their cards to me whenever they play one. That way, I was less likely to miss them sneaking something complicated on the board. I know it is my responsibility to learn what each card does and be able to recognize it by its upside-down from my perspective artwork, but ya' know what? I don't immediately know the full text of all 20000 Magic cards in existence by recognizing the patterns of shapes and colors in their illustrations
[ / rant ]
Anyway, I use verbal and physical psychological tricks all the time. I'll ask "cards in hand?" or "which of your creatures has the greatest power?" while holding on to a card in my hand as if I'm about to cast it, or I'll ostentatiously count my lands, or order them in a particular way after drawing a new card; or rearrange the cards in my hand after my opponent plays something - all for no reason whatsoever, except to make my opponent think that I am thinking of doing something.
It's not much, and competitive players know not to be influenced by such things, but once-in-a-while, I think it forces a misplay or overly-cautious play.
January 19, 2014 5:10 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
The first example I see nothing wrong with at all. Dryad Arbor
is a land as well as a creature. To me the expected place for it, Mutavault
, Treetop Village
, etc. is with the lands. There is nothing unfair about putting a land with the lands. There is also nothing inherently unfair about using unconventional methods of organization even if they did just keep everything in a big hodge-podge of permanents.
The second sounds eerily similar to what happened to one of my buddies at his first legacy event. There was a guy who had all Korean foils and refused to give the text. My friend ended up having a judge sit at the table to give him the text of all of the guy's cards. The opponent got short with my friend saying if he doesn't know the cards on sight he shouldn't be in the event which earned him a warning for unsportsman like conduct.
Both scenarios are perfectly acceptable regardless of the play level. What is unacceptable is getting irritated if your opponent wants to take time clarifying the game state after you have intentionally made it harder for them to get the information.
January 19, 2014 5:17 p.m.
One of the major reasons that I decided to get a playmat, actually, is because of the stacking lands issue. In multiplayer games, space around the table gets short quickly. The playmat defines "my area" in advance so that this doesn't happen. Otherwise, if I get crowded at my table spot, I literally have to start stacking things.
In this age of smartphones, it is a lot easier to look up the specific rules text for things. Of course asking should be responded to respectfully in such a case. That guy shouldn't be in a tournament with cards in a foreign language if he isn't willing to answer rules text questions!
January 19, 2014 5:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
@MagnusMTG: Those other examples are also worth discussing (I use several of them myself).
If I'm playing blue and my opponent casts something, I might pause for a moment, shuffle my hand to a "specific" card, "think" for a few seconds, then "allow" the spell to resolve. I might also specifically rearrange my lands such that 1U or UU appear to be grouped together for a counterspell, or 1B for a removal spell.
January 19, 2014 5:37 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #21
Hmmm... Well, in a tournament environment I still try to remain cordial. If I run 4x foreign cards in a deck. I try to keep an English one off to the side, so if someone asks, they can read it themselves. If I have a textless card... The same rule applies.
I do announce the full name of my cards when I play them, (the second they hit the stack) and I offer the card to my opponent so they can read it if need be. After that, it's on them, IMO.
I try to keep the game going as seamless and clearly as possible. If I move something, I announce it, (even if I am placing a dice on my deck to remember bob or obzedat triggers). I also always ask if something like that is okay and follow it up with a "are you sure".
To me, magic is supposed to be fun. And not knowing what a card does can be frustrating. I try to mitigate that as much as possible. BUT if a player misses a trigger or forgets to play a land... If it isn't their first game ever... Sorry about your luck chump.
January 19, 2014 5:40 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #22
I do feel like purposely trying to hide certain cards in your piles is in bad taste, and I would tell them after the match that they may want to fix that. If I forget they have a mutavaults out, that is on my dumb ass. Lol
January 19, 2014 5:42 p.m.
playing an entire deck of Russian foil cards may not be breaking any rules, but you ARE being a douchebag
regarding Dryad Arbor
or Llanowar Elves
with lands, no problem with that. it is each player's responsibility to keep the board state correct. I constantly glance and check their cards. as long as they're not hidden, no problems with that
some people place their hand cards on the table face down. if you're not keen and mistake them for having no hand, you may hold on to a Sorcery discard and regret not casting it. are they cheating? or was it a mistake on your part?
January 19, 2014 5:47 p.m.
I think that there is a break between FNM and GP. At a GP, tricks like these are fine, as long as they're legal. At FNM, you can call it practice for a GP, but this doesn't need practice. It's just mean at FNM.
January 19, 2014 5:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
@cr14mson: Regarding your example, it would be cheating if a player hid his or her hand and made it appear as though he or she had no cards in hand. If the player makes it clear that he or she is putting his or her hand down on the table, then it's obvious where everything is.
January 19, 2014 5:50 p.m.
@Epochalyptik I think those kinds of mind games are totally legit (faking people out / acting like you are looking to counter something). In my opinion, it's all part of the fun - much like poker.
January 19, 2014 5:50 p.m.
while playing blue, when my opponent casts a creature, sometimes I make it look like I'm about to tap Islands, look at his creature, look at my cards in hand, then withdraw my hand. even when all I'm holding are land cards! ((i know a lot of people do this too)) 
January 19, 2014 5:59 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #28
The thing is that these "tricks" you guys are using with counters are so common that everyone knows they exist and does them. If someone has blue mana up, be it in a big group or in a little side thing of 1U I assume a counter, if someone has black up I assume removal. The far more disconcerting thing than flicking a card around to the front and fiddling with mana is having your cards set down and just ask what the spell is, considering it for half a second and nodding. You don't need to be anxious and I actually find anxious player obnoxious. Be cool and confident, it unnerves people more than being fidgety.
January 19, 2014 6:16 p.m.
"If I'm playing blue and my opponent casts something, I might pause for a moment, shuffle my hand to a "specific" card, "think" for a few seconds, then "allow" the spell to resolve. I might also specifically rearrange my lands such that 1U or UU appear to be grouped together for a counterspell, or 1B for a removal spell."
- This is pretty common, and even if you know that it might be a bluff, you can never be sure. Doing the opposite is a nice trick too: Not ordering or stacking land in any particular way, and not making any overt motions or glances at cards.
It's especially villainous when playing Grixis colors to keep one Island, one Swamp, and one Mountain together off to the side with a face-down hand card next to it, and muttering, "just in case." :-)
"The thing is that these "tricks" you guys are using with counters are so common that everyone knows they exist and does them. If someone has blue mana up, be it in a big group or in a little side thing of 1U I assume a counter, if someone has black up I assume removal."
- That's the point. If you're assuming counter or removal, and I don't actually have one, then that forces you to hold back when you don't really have to.
I'm all for these fun little poker-style bluffs while playing, but I always try to keep my board state as clear as possible for my opponent to read: I keep things spread out and avoid stacking if possible (If I'm playing Elves and have 20+ Elf Warrior tokens, then they are going in one big pile and I'll put dice near them to indicate how many tokens are in the pile). I don't use foil or foreign-language cards unless they are the only copies I have (an exception might be lands: I have some Korean plains and no one notices).
Gidgetimer, a player is not necessarily anxious or fidgety when they noticeably touch or move cards. I have seen plenty of anxious/fidgety players, though! - constantly flicking or mixing their cards in hand, or painstakingly lining up all their cards so all the edges are flush and apologizing with some 'non-psychologist-diagnosed' comment about "OCD" . . .
Whenever I draw a card, I'll look at it briefly, then mix it up in my hand with my other cards both for my benefit (to get a fresh perspective) and so my opponent can't track what's new or old in my hand. When I pass the turn, I always put my hand of cards face-down on the table and fan them out so they are easily countable. Whether I have a counter or removal spell available or not, I will sometimes make a semi-obvious show of putting a particular card on top when I do this.
This is often most for my benefit to remind me that I do actually have a response so I don't forget to use it when I have to. I've found newer players are completely oblivious to these obvious tells.
I guess my gaming demeanor is a mix of poker and chess, since those are my other two favorite games that I play often. Chess lends itself more to stillness and silence and only moving when a ply has been decided on. Poker is famous for the "poker face," but there are a lot of deliberate fake tells, as well.
@Gidgetimer, re: "What is unacceptable is getting irritated if your opponent wants to take time clarifying the game state after you have intentionally made it harder for them to get the information."
This.
January 19, 2014 6:49 p.m.
If your deck is all foil russian cards because you're a dude who likes foils and russian cards, it's fine.
If your deck is all foil russian cards because you feel like you can cause your opponent to misplay because it's much harder to keep the board state clear when they can't easily glance over cardnames or rulestext, to try and eke out an advantage in a match, you're an asshole.
In both cases, the letter of the law backs you up completely. But you can follow every rule and be an asshole.
In fact, unbendingly strict adherence to the absolute letter of every rule while pushing up as hard as you possibly can against the spirit of every rule is just about the biggest asshole move you can make.
January 19, 2014 7:50 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #31
I absolutely love using mind games during higher level matches (Basically any game that has prizes on the line)
My favorite that i've recently adapted is checkering my board, wherein I have every other land up front, checkered with my non-lands. Whenever I put something into play, I make sure to announce it, but it's up to the opponent to keep track of what is where.
Other tricks that i've used are shuffling my board when i'm fairly creature heavy, and using a single strip of my cards, wherein all of my lands and nonlands are in one single strip that I pick up at the end of every turn, shuffle, and lay back down. I also mark planeswalkers according to the loyalty that is printed on the card. For example, if I +1 my Jace, Architect of Thought , I will put a D6 marked on 1 on it. When I bring it down to 3 (or less than the loyalty printed on the card), I move the die off of the card to keep track of it. It's a great trick for anyone who doesn't now that that's how you're doing it.
I've never heard of anyone using foils to throw the opponent off, but a buddy of mine (Another blue mage; gasp, I know) ran an all-foreign deck pre-theros and he won a few games because of it.
The way that I see it, it isn't my responsibility to make sure the opponent knows by heart what all of my cards do. Of course, I will always answer the questioning player, but for those that are 'too good for that', it's strictly in my favor.
Of course, all of this is only in a game that gets me prizes if I win (top 8 FNM, SCGIQs, etc) In the non-competitive games, I make sure that i'm the good guy to help balance my karma with my devilish trickery.
January 19, 2014 7:52 p.m.
As an aside, when I play (and I usually only play commander and pre-releases/drafts) I keep my lands organized into columns of what colors they can produce, and put nonbasics at the front. But the name of each card is visible.
Although sometimes when casting a spell I combine all of my tapped lands to easier keep track of what I have tapped and what I have available. Sometimes I set aside a select portion of land to remind myself that I have a specific amount of mana open or to bluff.
For example, I'm playing a grixis control deck. My land columns might be:
Swamp , Swamp , Bojuka Bog .
Island , Oboro, Palace in the Clouds .
Hammerheim , Vivid Crag .
River of Tears , Drowned Catacomb
If I have a Counterspell and a Cruel Ultimatum in hand, I would tap swamp, swamp, bojuka bog, island, oboro, hammerhiem, and the crag to cast it, putting it in one pile and tapped sideways (usually stacked directly on top of each other to conserve space).
I would keep the River and Catacomb off to the side in its own pile, and the maze by itself to remind myself of the counterspell and so I don't forget to use my maze.
If players ask to see what I have as far as tapped lands, I am more than welcome to show and read off their names and what they do.
I also tend to keep my artifacts and enchantments in columns, while my creatures and planeswalkers I keep separate. In commander games the table can get pretty crowded so I try to conserve space.
By mixing my lands together and only showing names, it can be easy to have players forget what I have- and may attack me with a token without noticing that one of the lands in my colorless column happens to be a Mystifying Maze or something. Sometimes I have not noticed I had a land concealed under others, and I apologize for not having it be shown, but we're pretty laid back considering we don't play competitively.
I don't play competitively, so I'm not used to the types of tactics used. But I feel like when you're doing something "outside the game" like playing foreign cards to try and mislead other players, you're a real dick and probably don't deserve to win. I'd call a judge to read me the oracle text of every single card he played- regardless of his answers because if he's already going out of his way to try and confuse me I wouldn't take his word.
I've also heard of players distracting or acting weird just to psyche out their opponents, or saying something that isn't true- I.e. the dude who went infinite but had no win con, and he asked the other guy if they could speed it along so he scooped. That's just poor sportsmanship and those people shouldn't be allowed to play.
That's my two cents.
January 19, 2014 7:59 p.m.
@ThatBlueMage Your Planeswalker stunt is, I believe, actually misrepresenting information and should be punishable. A die showing a (1) on a PW which currently has 5 loyalty is actually misrepresenting the state of that PW, as you can't maintain that as a consistent system of marking, since there's no way with a die to mark -1 if it has 3 loyalty from the starting loyalty of 4.
If you need to resort to trying to confuse or trick your opponent by doing your best to make it as difficult as possible for them to fulfil their responsibility to maintain the game state, I can only assume it is because you lack the skill to beat them through superior deck construction and play.
January 19, 2014 8 p.m.
@MagnusMTG: I have never heard somebody apologize about fidgeting with thier cards because of OCD.
As somebody diagnosed with OCD, it tends to be much more in depth than just having to organize things a lot.
I organize my permanents and cards in hand to be more convenient to myself in the game, as I stated above.
But some of the annoying things I do include shuffling my hand, having to ruffle (I can't think of the word to describe it, I run my thumb up my deck along the side to make that distinct bridge shuffling sound) my hand or deck every so often, and taking a longer than normal time to make important decisions.
It's really annoying to hear that people self-diagnose themselves with OCD because they do annoying things in magic. Everybody I know shuffles their hand and organizes their cards every so often. It's more of a magic thing than an OCD thing I think.
If it's too much of a problem, start running Stop That . :P
January 19, 2014 8:07 p.m.
I have a deck that is all about tokens and counters. Clearly, in this case, die can't be used as the tokens! So I made a special set of tokens with clear boxes on them to hold die recording how many copies of the token there are - so then any other die would be for the number of +1/+1 on it.
Then I also just today made a set of tokens to keep track of things like Stolen Identity and Prototype Portal that make copies of things. I added another box for a glass counter pairing to show precisely what is being copied as well as the regular box for the number of copies.
I do try to be clear in MTG. Now ... when it comes to creative efforts ... it turns out that I am more inclined towards actions that are similar in motivation to my making of proxies in MTG for valuable cards that I actually do own.
January 19, 2014 8:08 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #36
I've had the Planeswalker scenario checked by 2 different judges. So long as I explain that that is my process, it's legal. You don't actually have to mark your planeswalkers with a die at all, it's mainly done for the sake of both players ease of checking the board state.
And if you believe that i'm a bad player because I like to mess with people, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. However, in no way do any of these mind games indicate that I couldn't beat the opponent otherwise. It's not that I do them because I use them as a crutch, I just like to have fun, and if it helps me in the long run, It's only going to encourage me to keep at it.
January 19, 2014 8:10 p.m.
"It's a great trick for anyone who doesn't now[sic] that that's how you're doing it."
"So long as I explain that that is my process, it's legal"
I'll leave seeing the issue here as an exercise to the reader.
January 19, 2014 8:16 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #38
People forget things, what can I say.
Also, that could be interpreted as an explanation of the trick to anyone who wants to use it in non-competitive games.
"How do you know you've lost an argument? You start picking apart their grammar issues"
January 19, 2014 8:20 p.m.
We're not arguing, because there's no actual "correct" position that we can try to come to. You use a playstyle that I think makes you an asshole. You point out that the rules allow it, and that you will happily violate the spirit of as many rules as you can as long as you stay on the safe side of the letter.
I hardly think that pointing out "I don't tell them" and "As long as I tell them it's fine" are contradictory is "picking apart the grammar"
A good 80% of the reason Epoch put his "Lets make sure to stay civil" disclaimer on this thread, I suspect, is because of me and the fact that he knows I'm vehement about calling out poor sportsmanship as poor sportsmanship and not 'clever play'.
If I can't beat you at magic while we both have an easy and trivial understanding of the game state so we can dedicate our effort into the superior execution of our deck on the boardstate, I don't want to beat you. If you can't beat me without trying to make it as difficult as possible for me to maintain my understanding of the game state, so I have less effort to dedicate to the execution of my deck on the boardstate, I simply don't want to play with you, and will happily call you out for it.
January 19, 2014 8:28 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #40
Resorting to unconventional ways of marking stuff to obfuscate the board state is a bit under handed. It is perfectly legal to mark it in any way that you would like but when asked you have to answer truthfully. Why try to complicate it? I have played with a guy who used coins heads up for 1 and down for 0 and would mark stuff in binary. I can convert to decimal in less than a second, but that didn't prevent me from asking him each time how many counters / how much life.
January 19, 2014 8:39 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #41
The issue wasn't your spelling. The issue was that your two arguments contradicted one another. Your first post didn't properly convey that you explain your method to your opponent.
I strongly disagree with both your checkering of permanents and your planeswalker loyalty method. It is my opinion that both practices show a lack of respect for your opponent. There is a clear line between choosing not to announce that you've played a Dryad Arbor and actively making the game state convoluted. I feel bad enough when I win because my opponents misread a clear board state. I would never consider actively trying to force my opponent to misread the board.
You have engaged in what I would call "a dick move". At least in my opinion. You're free to use your own methods, but I find them to be rude at best.
Proofreading this post, it's coming across a lot more snippy than I intended. Sorry for that. I'd rather not rewrite the whole post to fix it, though, so I guess I'm both snippy and lazy.
January 19, 2014 8:43 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #42
Variation on situation number 1:
It has been brought to my attention that not only does the FtV Dryad Arbor look vaguely like a Forest , its art is actually similar to the art on a specific foil AVR Forest . Do the ethics of situation number 1 change if Urza fills his deck with foil AVR forests in order to make the board harder to read?
Art, for reference. Imagine the basic forest in foil.
January 19, 2014 8:53 p.m.
@NobodyPicksBulbasaur Since you are probably not playing against drunk people, they should be able to read the card. There are definite differences. If they weren't going to tell the difference with this version of a forest then they probably wouldn't with any other version. If they were actually drunk, then there is a chance they might not care anyway.
@ThatBlueMage I can kind of understand what you are talking about with your argument about it being "for the fun of it". I have been known to have won at different games and not said anything just to "see what would have happened" etc. At the same time, I would pay close attention to the reactions of others when you are "just having fun". When I noticed that it bothered someone when I did this, I stopped and just didn't do it any more. Very clear, simple. MTG shouldn't be like some kind of life and death situation where you actually have good reason to try to fake anyone out to survive. It isn't even like there are things like patents or original creative works at stake such that you don't want to just :"throw it all out there" for the taking. In this case, it's just a game and that probably doesn't warrant any kind of aggressiveness or stress on this level.
January 19, 2014 9:05 p.m.
Mistakes and misplays are part of the game, be it miss reading the board state, miss evaluating a race, miss remember the exact text of a card, etc. You are under no pretense to make the game easier for your opponent than what the rules state.
I was playing in a GPT over the weekend and saved one of my creatures from Last Breath with Brave the Elements . My opponent then proceeded to cast a Detention Sphere targeting my other creature. I stated it resolved and that creature was not a legal target for the triggered ability once it hit the battlefield.
I didn't cheat him out of anything, he made the mistake. I wouldn't expect any other behavior if I cast say Devour Flesh and my opponent pulled a Dryad Arbor out of the lands.
January 19, 2014 9:46 p.m.
@Slycne You're conflating "Don't have to make easier" with "deliberately making harder"
January 19, 2014 10:15 p.m.
crystalizeq says... #46
In my opinion, situation number 1 is perfectly reasonable, so long as you are clearly showing that the Dryad Arbor is there.
However, I feel that situation number 2, although allowed by the rules, is just plain rude to your opponent. It is annoying having to call a judge over every time you need to read a card, and, for me and others, it is much easier to take in information reading it than to have it read aloud to you. As an example, if I swung in against my opponent who is playing with Russian cards, and he has a creature with first strike, a lot of people don't often remember that little text that says first strike that otherwise would have been completely noticeable, and now you just cheated your opponent out of a creature.
However, this is perfectly acceptable at big tournaments, since as a previous poster said, professional MTG is like a sport, and if you have to play mindgames to win, so be it.
January 19, 2014 10:32 p.m.
Devonin Yes and no. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but I think there's more overlap than initially apparent.
For instance from my example, I could when casting Brave the Elements say out loud "white creatures I control gain protection from white until end of turn". By simply saying "I cast brave for white", I am in a way deliberately making it harder for my opponent. It's on them to remember the effect or request to look at the card. I'm not hiding information, the graveyard is public and they can see the card at any time.
At the same tournament, I won another game because my opponent failed to run the math on my crack back. I'm all for giving my opponents every available opportunity to make a mistake, as long as it's not violating the rules.
Another interesting example, let's say you have a Slippery Bogle with a couple Ethereal Armor , Rancor , etc. You don't technically have to tell your opponent how big of a creature it is, they are allowed to make a mistake and miscount. Granted once damage is happening you can't lie about the amount.
It's certainly another aspect to the discussion.
January 19, 2014 10:58 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #48
@Slycne: Your arguments are correct, to an extent. I still feel like you are creating an overlap that isn't as apparent as you're implying it is. Yes, there is a grey area involved in the discussion, but I think the line between jerk mode and a-ok is a little more pronounced than you're making it.
In your Brave the Elements situation, you're giving your opponent all of the information required by both the rules and common courtesy. It isn't a jerk move to not read cards to your opponent. It simply saves time because it's safe to imply that your opponents either know what your cards do or are smart enough to read the cards themselves. Telling your opponent any more than you described is like coaching them mid game. Unless you're playing a teaching game, you don't need to walk your opponents through their plays.
Last week at FNM, for example, a guy showed up who hasn't played for a while, and was lent a MUD deck (Standard). He lost game 2 when he had lethal on board because 2 turns in a row he alpha-striked his Master of Waves into Azorius Charm . He would have won had he just attacked with the tokens, but didn't realize that Azorius Charm only worked on creatures in combat. His opponent clearly preyed on this lack of knowledge, but he was in no way concealing information. He was simply making the best plays available to him at the time.
Yes, the U/W player was being a little bit of a jerk by preying on a lack of knowledge, but I can verify that both players understood the mechanics of the game. A quick read of publicly available information would have fixed the problem after the first swing.
January 20, 2014 12:07 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #49
I think other langauge cards in magic were printed to break down barriers between countries and expand the scope of the game. If you add a bunch of japanese cards to your deck and you don't speak or read japanese, you are trying to make it hard for your opponent to manage their board state and if that's the edge you need to win your not a good player just an asshole trying to take advantage of the rules. Playing with brail cards and not being blind just makes you look like an asshole. In Legacy I always hate the dude who has all these japanese and portugese cards that are old and you'd either need a oracle read based on a picture for each card played or take their word. It's bullshit..once I forced a ruling on each card and the shop owner running the tournement got mad at the dudes deck and me for the trouble and time cost of my request. Nobody at magic wants to be THAT GUY but I was making a point. In my opinion Wizards and DCI should make a rule that in order to play foreign cards you must be able to speak or read that langauge and demonstrate it or remove those cards from play.
January 20, 2014 12:08 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #50
Not all players use foreign cards as a way to confuse their opponent. Foreign cards are simply a novelty, and are highly collectible for some players. In the case of foreign cards, it's all about the motive.
PasorofMuppets says... #2
Are time extensions giving in Comp REL when you have to ask a judge to look up the oracle text? If not then Urza not answering what a card does is pretty ridiculous and just wastes time.
January 19, 2014 3:53 p.m.