With the recent rule changes, will you actually change any of your decks?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 24, 2015, 2:46 p.m. by Indigoindigo
The only tuck- / bounce-effects I run myself is Bant Charm, Cyclonic Rift and Hinder, and I still think they're more than worth inclusion.
Are there any changes you'll make to your decks?
Servo_Token says... #3
I was only using Cyclonic Rift, and its still a board wipe, so I'm all set. I was never a fan of tucking anyway.
March 24, 2015 2:49 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #4
I run Oblation in my Daghatar EDH deck. My Grand Arbiter Augustin IV deck got the axe earlier this week for unrelated reasons, so... No, not really.
March 24, 2015 2:51 p.m.
Nope. But then again I'm not sure my playgroup will abide by the new rule. But that aside, the tuck spells are still viable as removal well suited to fighting graveyard tricks, and my playgroup sees a lot of that too. So in either case they're staying. They don't have to be targeting commanders all day every day.
March 24, 2015 2:54 p.m.
How is Cyclonic Rift affected by the rules change? Taking your commander to your hand instead of the command zone avoids the commander tax, so people will just keep doing that even tho you could put him in your command zone now. Right?
March 24, 2015 2:54 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #7
Yeah, going into hand isn't really gonna be much.
March 24, 2015 2:55 p.m.
The most likely thing that will change is people will play decks that rely entirely on their commanders and will have no fear of being shut down so long as they have the mana to pump into their combos. For example, I used to Hinder/Bant Charm Sliver Overlord and as a completely legitimate strategy wipe that opponent out for the most part. But now, he's just gonna keep playing lands and recasting it. The rule change is terrible and there will be repurcussions because of it in casual games.
March 24, 2015 3 p.m.
vishnarg: You can still use Darksteel Mutation, Lignify, Song of the Dryads, Arrest :)
March 24, 2015 3:05 p.m.
All are sorcery speed though, and not good cards on their own. Running those to shut down commanders is a waste of deck space.
March 24, 2015 3:06 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #11
The tuck spells will still be useful if only as another variant of Swords to Plowshares. I probably won't make any particular changes.
I think the change is misaimed though. It seems like something to protect casual players from less casual players. I'd have to meditate on it. I wouldn't be surprised if they reconsider it.
March 24, 2015 3:34 p.m.
I will be editing out anti-tuck stuff (like Flamekin Harbinger) but other than that the only tuck spell I ever used was Spin into Myth.
March 24, 2015 6:37 p.m.
I'll probably end up replacing Chaos Warp in my Xenagos, God of Revels deck (It's Tough to be Xenagod) because I did have it in case of more oppressive generals. No idea what to put in its place, aside from maybe Aftershock or Atarka's Command.
As for my blue decks, I'll probably replace Hinder with Dissipate, but leave Spell Crumple since it can shuffle itself back in. And I never played white tucks so no changes there, really.
March 24, 2015 7:31 p.m.
gildan_bladeborn says... #15
I only ran tuck effects in one deck, and neither were included specifically to make commanders go away, that was just an added bonus sometimes. So no reason to change anything.
March 24, 2015 10:47 p.m.
JA14732: Wish I could do that. I'm pretty sure my group is going to embrace this new ruling and ignore the ramifications of it.
March 24, 2015 11:42 p.m.
Deckologist says... #18
The only upside to this is I can now chaos warp out my entire deck using my general as fodder. If anything I'll be adding more tuck effects to my decks to be able to draw cards/cheat stuff out
March 25, 2015 1:44 a.m.
What did they do? Make it like tiny leaders where you can put your commander back into the command zone instead of into your deck?
March 25, 2015 4:05 p.m.
MirranTitan says... #20
Personally, I feel like they should not have axed "return to hand" effects. It's not like from you hand your commander is utter unaccessible. Now if it were discarded, you are allowed to put it into the command zone, but the hand should not be messed with.
That being said, I am a little bummed, I do play Terminus, Hallowed burial, and so forth, just because they are effective ways to get around cards like Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and a nifty way to nerf commanders, but I guess I will just have to play more removal.
March 25, 2015 4:37 p.m.
Just went and read the new change and I don't like it makes Spin into Myth useless
March 25, 2015 5:18 p.m.
Although it does make me want to use a Mindslaver+Spin into Myth and make them choose to put it on top and then "fate seal" lol
March 25, 2015 5:20 p.m.
VictorSilvertome says... #23
My brother was wanting to trade for my Chaos Warp and abruptly changed his mind the day they announced the rule change, I don't blame him, though.
March 25, 2015 5:58 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #24
Nope, because I refuse to adhere to it. If a LGS runs a tourney and runs by that rule, I won't be playing there. Simple as that. The new ruling is moronic beyond anything.
March 25, 2015 10:15 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #25
Chaos Warp has uses besides tucking commanders, like dealing with enchantments in monored. I guess it depends on your other options though.
March 25, 2015 10:54 p.m.
I love how people will continue to play the creation of someone else's work but will choose to not listen to them when they tell them what the rules are.
it is the epitome of Childishness
The rules changed. If you don't like them that doesn't mean the rules just disappear, they are still there and they are still a rule. If you like the change this is great news for you. If you don't then it sucks. That is the boat I am in, however you will never ever catch me choosing to ignore a rule cause I don't like it.
March 26, 2015 1:21 a.m.
The rules of commander are that you do not have to adhere to the rules if your group agrees not to. That's honestly what I love most about commander, because there is never a meta that is too strong, because different groups do different things. Hell, I played with one group that played commander like mario party; with players obtaining points for the final tally. It was wierd, but a neat thing to try... once.
My playgroup has decided not to adhere to the rule addition. We generally don't go nuts with tucks but it happens on occasion and that is fine with us at this point. Either way it does not significally impact the group so it isn't broken and we don't need the rule to fix it.
March 26, 2015 12:43 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #32
I think the tuck spells are really good still. They are not as "mandatory" feeling as they used to be, but still solid cards. Especially Chaos Warp since red has a hard time dealing with enchants.
March 26, 2015 2:28 p.m.
I won't be taking Bant Charm out of my Roon deck anytime soon, while it does jack against commanders now I can still target a Containment Priest with it.
March 26, 2015 2:38 p.m.
garrettlstewart says... #34
Fuck the Containment Priest, as well as the Hushwing Gryff!! @suneater might not want to buy Arcane Lighthouse, they might just change the rules so that a characteristic of all commanders is that they cannot be targeted at all!
March 26, 2015 3:14 p.m.
Might as well play with the old legendary rule, mana burn, and ante while you're at it people.
March 26, 2015 3:36 p.m.
Deckologist says... #37
I got to show off my new chaos warp infinite combo in front of the RC guys yesterday. They looked at me unimpressed so I simply walked past them and told them thank you for helping me win harder. God I love this game
March 27, 2015 10:52 a.m.
suneater, the main issue at stake here is not that people have to change their decks, it's that the RC has shown themselves YET AGAIN to be incapable of making logical and well-reasoned changes to such a complex format. Without tucking, we will see a wave of commanders being banned simply because we have no answers to them anymore. So, rather than accepting the relatively balanced state of EDH (Hermit Druid's still a bit annoying), they decided to throw the balance out the window simply because they didn't like it and they thought that new players would be absolutely idiots. It's infuriating and the majority of players playing in a semi competitive playcircle will likely reject this ruling to keep Maelstrom Wanderer, Prossh, Derevi and Voltron decks from becoming almost unbeatable.
March 27, 2015 11:03 a.m.
JA14732: You didn't know? Sheldon runs Hermit Druid in his Karador reanimation / dredge deck (without abusing it to its full potential). According to him, Hermit Druid is not even under consideration for being banned and says asking for it to be banned is "beating a dead horse".
His argument is that the "Social Contract" will keep people from running the Hermit Druid combo decks in most metas, and that since the card can ALSO be run as a not combo piece it shouldn't be banned.
Which is funny, because Protean Hulk (Especially this), Painter's Servant, Tinker, even Recurring Nightmare fall under that EXACT line of reasoning, yet they are on the banlist. In fact, a vast majority of the banlist falls under the argument that "If you just don't build to abuse it, it isn't broken so it shouldn't get banned!"
Hell, even the EXACT same argument can be used against TUCKS. If your group hates tucks so much, why doesn't the "Social Contract" stop you from playing it in your playgroup? Why does everyone else have to suffer?
This shows how hypocritical and short-sighted Sheldon and the rest of the RC is.
Abuseable cards are OK as long as THEY play them. Cards THEY don't like get banned.
We can see this line of reasoning surface with this rules change. Once again a small playgroup with their own subjective ideas of how the format should be played - regardless of how the rest of the community feels - decides that they don't like something, and so away it goes.
On OP's question: All my red decks (Except my mono red) no longer run Chaos Warp. My white decks no longer run Oblation and Condemn. My blue decks no longer run Hinder or Spell Crumple, they have lost their entire purpose and are complete trash in comparison to more efficient exile alternatives.
I play with lots of people so I don't have the option to ignore this rule change if I want to be able to play without constantly swapping cards out of my decks. I absolutely hate it.
March 28, 2015 9:48 p.m.
garrettlstewart Sheldon is on the EDH Rules Committee. See http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560 for reference
March 29, 2015 12:59 p.m.
garrettlstewart: Sheldon is the spokesperson of the EDH Rules Committee and a terrible person.
julianjmoss says... #2
I know people in my play group play chaos warp and oblation. We've progressed from actually using our commanders most of the time (me using mine the most since I use sen triplets) so I don't think much changes although different playgroups care more
March 24, 2015 2:48 p.m.