Kaldheim Spoilers: FINALLY, infect has received support
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 23, 2020, 8:14 a.m. by Mortlocke
Kaldheim was one of the last places I’d expect to see graced with the glory of Phyrexia, but lo and behold I see a new instance of Vorinclex who absolutely supports a counters (and more importantly INFECT) matter Commander deck archetype. Doubling counters you put on players and/or permanents is huge as it doubles the effect every proliferation trigger while he is on the field. Personally, this card is an absolute must have in my own love letter to New Phyrexia:
The Song of Phyresis
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 205 | 102 COMMENTS | 17956 VIEWS | IN 73 FOLDERS
The deck fits the definition of the Atraxa Infect archetype (along with other types of counters as well). Swing by the page If you feel so inclined and leave a +1, I worked really hard on the CSS and the deck as well and would appreciate the imaginary internet points. Oh,and if you’re curious this new Vorinclex will be swapped in for the old one currently in the deck.
Source of spoiler
I am offcially losing my pay check when Kaldheim drops; if there are more Praetors in the set, Imma lose it.
December 23, 2020 8:37 a.m.
This is a 6 drop... infect should be closing out the game by the time it has 6 mana, not setting up its board.
This card is pretty garbage for commander IMO. A 6 drop needs immediate impact on the board to be playable. This card has no synergy with itself, if it had infect that would be a whole different story. But it does nothing without support or an established board state.
If it was a 4/4 for 4 CMC. Sure, I could find a home for this in counter decks. But at 6 CMC, the game is over before it accumulates impact. This card would have to give me 4x as many counters to make it worthwhile at 6 CMC
December 23, 2020 9:18 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #5
So, 1- that is NOT what Vorinclex looks like. 2- that is not what Kaldheim looks like, from what we've seen. 3- this card doesn't really gel with Vorinclex's whole "devour the weak" schtick. 4- "Phyrexian" is not (yet) a creature type. 5- is WotC really gonna introduce a plane and immediately go "and then, the phyrexians." No. They're going to hit an established plane to present emotional stakes for those invested in the plane and its denizens.
December 23, 2020 10:14 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #6
Scratch the first one- the more I look at it, I do see the resemblance.
December 23, 2020 10:15 a.m.
ZendikariWol 4: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=476215
December 23, 2020 10:59 a.m. Edited.
ZendikariWol says... #8
Okay sure, but that's a playtest card, not a Magic card.
December 23, 2020 11:06 a.m.
griffstick says... #9
I think it looks like a dinosaur. I think it is okay for a deck it can go in. Its balance is pretty goof but, I'm a bit tired of all the "double" and "triple" effects we have gotten this yr and last yr. It's kinda boring to me now. How many times will they print a card that resembles Doubling Season or Furnace of Wrath or Mana Reflection. I sick and tired of seeing these effects. Magic is oversaturated with these effects.
December 23, 2020 11:08 a.m.
MagicWizard1993 says... #10
I think they are just trying to rope me n players from Phyrexia to boost pack sales.
December 23, 2020 11:23 a.m.
it does work with infect
but idk..
to me it kinda screams put me in a Omnath, Locus of Mana deck
December 23, 2020 11:23 a.m.
It's funny, just the other day I read your thing about how Infect was a parasitic mechanic and you weren't gonna get any new infect cards... Well, I think it doesn't get much better than this!
Personally I'm super excited for the return of Phyrexians and Kaldheim just got a LOT more interesting (I was kinda sick of vikings tbh and if it was just that I was going to be pretty underwhelmed). Also really curious how this is gonna tie into the Innistrad sets, and very curious about the logistics of errate'ing such a gigantic number of cards. And there I was thinking the erratas for Dinosaurs and Dogs were a lot!
December 23, 2020 11:45 a.m.
This has to be a fake card. There’s an elesh norn out there claiming to be from the new set which uses old fan-art. Both photographed on the same background and made the same way. I also doubt they would pack a doubling season on a 6/6 trample haste body for just 1 mana more with his second ability allowing my opponent to go infinite with any persist or undying creature. I mean my opponent would get infinite counters out of a glen elendra archmage if I play this vorinclex, that would be a really bad design
December 23, 2020 12:04 p.m.
Ok I doubt phyrexian are showing up on the plane and even if we do get phyrexians the chances of them bringing back infect is slim to none
December 23, 2020 12:06 p.m.
Pikobyte: Um, they're clearly on different backgrounds. And it's easy to find proof that the Elesh Norn card is fake, unlike with this one. As for cards having a big downside that can cost you the game if your opponent has the cards to play around it... That's very much a thing already.
But most of all here's why I think this makes a LOT of sense: Kaldheim is all about prophecies, and no prophecy would be more important to a Norse plane than Ragnarok. And what could possibly be a better end to a world than a Phyrexian invasion?
So yeah, to make it makes perfect sense that whatever god of theirs that could see the future saw the Phyrexians coming and wrote it down as "the end of the world" and that's exactly what we're going to be seeing.
I also agree with other people's thoughts that there's gonna be one Praetor per set rather than having a cycle with all of them at once. They've probably got the planar bridge and are sending out invasion parties to lesser known and lesser protected planes to increase their numbers (it only takes a drpo of oil to ruin a world) before attempting a large scale invasion of a major plane (which clearly did not go well for Bolas or Yawgmoth).
December 23, 2020 12:20 p.m.
I think people have said that phyrexians where gonna show up in every set of the last 3 years
December 23, 2020 12:27 p.m.
Per TappedOut's policy that there is to be no discussion of cards that have not been officially spoiled--in this case, the card was allegedly inadvertently spoiled because the printer accidently slipped it into Commander Legends. Pursuant to this policy, I am going to lock this thread--I will try to remember to reopen it if this gets spoiled as a real card (if I do not, just leave a note on my wall to remind me).
December 23, 2020 12:32 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #18
The thing that really screams "not this set, no" to me is the story aspect. Think about the term "Red-Shirt:" originating from Star Trek, it refers to a character who is brought in with 0 development just to die to the first threatening alien they come across. Now, this works great in Star Trek because a movie can have extras, but WotC's design team spent literal years planning for Kaldheim.
Let's look at other cataclysms that have befallen planes: The Mending, the Conflux, the Rise of the Eldrazi (twice!), the Phyrexian invasion (also twice!), the Khanfall, and most recently, the War of the Spark. What do all of these have in common? At LEAST two different standard-legal sets preceeding the invasion- one to introduce the world (think the first two Ravnica blocks, the first Mirrodin block, or Zendikar), one to set the stage for the conflict (Guilds of Ravnica/Ravnica Allegiance, Scars of Mirrodin, or Worldwake), and one to introduce the conflict (War of the Spark, Mirrodin Besieged, or Rise of the Eldrazi). Classic three-act structure: introduce the norm, disrupt the norm, resolve the conflict. You can not have all of those in a single set, and I'm pretty sure WotC knows that.
December 23, 2020 12:35 p.m.
Now that this card has been officially spoiled, I am unlocking this thread. My the discussion commence anew!
January 7, 2021 3:57 p.m.
Yay! New discussion time! I think i'll start off by addressing some previous comments:
- ZendikariWol "I genuinely can't tell if you're being sarcastic."
No. I'm not being sarcastic. This new instance of Vorinclex literally doubles all poison counters placed on opponents who take infect combat damage. It more or less doubles every proliferation trigger as you get to put double the amount of counters on players and permanents. It 1 cards all experience commanders (bye bye Mizzix and Meren), shuts down all opponent Sagas, and either severely slows or stops opponents who play Superfriends (opponent planeswalkers don't gain loyalty counters from +1 abilities - 1 rounded down equals 0 and they ETB with half their loyalty counters). So, yeah. While not as universally strong as it's predecesor - it's an excellent card for Commander decks who feature infect as one of it's core mechanics. Speaking of which I do plan on keeping the other Vorinclex in my deck.
- SimicVisionRy "I am offcially losing my pay check when Kaldheim drops; if there are more Praetors in the set, Imma lose it."
You and I both my friend. Honestly, i'm just going to try and keep it down to singles. I've spent far too much money on Commander Legends Collector boosters. I plan on buying both the Phyrexian and Kaldheim Showcase versions of the card (in foil, no less!). Depending on the price, i'll pre-order them both. Then I also heard a rumor about another card that provides much needed infect support. But it's only a rumor...that I discussed as an update on my deck page:
The Song of Phyresis
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 211 | 117 COMMENTS | 18570 VIEWS | IN 77 FOLDERS
I highly suggest you check it out, tell me what you think! :)
Peligrad "This is a 6 drop... infect should be closing out the game by the time it has 6 mana, not setting up its board.
This card is pretty garbage for commander IMO. A 6 drop needs immediate impact on the board to be playable. This card has no synergy with itself, if it had infect that would be a whole different story. But it does nothing without support or an established board state.
If it was a 4/4 for 4 CMC. Sure, I could find a home for this in counter decks. But at 6 CMC, the game is over before it accumulates impact. This card would have to give me 4x as many counters to make it worthwhile at 6 CMC"
I completely disagree with your assessment - a 6 drop in commander can be played well before the 6th turn if you use a little known secret in magic called "ramp" which tend to be staples in decks that run green in addition to the usual Sol Ring or Mana Crypt. Also Tainted Strike, Phyresis and to a lesser extent Glistening Oil would like to have a word with you - granting this card infect is not a difficult feat. So, let me get this straight - you think a 6/6 with haste and trample who doubles all counters you put on players (and halves all counters opponents put down) needs infect to be relevant in a game? To quote the great Jonah J. Jamieson:
So for mana you want to be able to just 1 shot a player and take them out of the game? Wow...just...wow. You know it takes only 10 poison counters to kill an opponent, right?
January 7, 2021 4:53 p.m. Edited.
griffstick, don't get me wrong here - I don't think Monstrous Raider is as good as his predecessor, the ubiquitous hate machine that is Voice of Hunger. However, within the context of Infect (and Poison counters) this is big. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Infect has always been a parasitic mechanic in Commander. There hasn't been a single card printed that directly contributes to putting poison counters (ala infect or otherwise) on opponents in 10 years. For those who don't run infect, this card is a solid "Meh". But for the few who have been dying for some good cards that support infect in commander (and is also on flavor for the added vorthos is only a sweet sweet bonus), this is a dream come true. The only way I can describe it is:
I think it's likely most players will have an attitude similar to yours in regards to Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider - so that's good news for me. I probably won't have to spend as much to get the
Phyrexian text foil copy Show
January 8, 2021 4:02 p.m. Edited.
Pikobyte "Pikobyte says...#13 This has to be a fake card. There’s an elesh norn out there claiming to be from the new set which uses old fan-art. Both photographed on the same background and made the same way. I also doubt they would pack a doubling season on a 6/6 trample haste body for just 1 mana more with his second ability allowing my opponent to go infinite with any persist or undying creature. I mean my opponent would get infinite counters out of a Glen Elendra Archmage if I play this vorinclex, that would be a really bad design"
So the card's definitely not fake. Bad design? Well, i'm not a card designer for Wotc (Are you? Because you speak like you're an authority on card/game design) - I don't think that a card having some niche interaction with a single non-legendary creature (or persist creatures in general) is necessarily bad card design. Going by your logic, Sliver Overlord is also a bad card because it can get stolen by an opponent, who can subsequently steal all the Slivers you play. With all cards in magic there are always some interactions you should watch out for when facing a clever opponent. No card is perfect, but it can be powerful in the right hands, and under the right circumstances.
January 8, 2021 4:18 p.m.
Ramble "it does work with infect but idk.. to me it kinda screams put me in a Omnath, Locus of Mana deck"
No way. Omnath doesn't even give counters, it just stores mana. Unless the deck is designed to take full advantage of +1/+1 counters (or counters in general) and Helix Pinnacle, Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider would be a wasted slot.
January 8, 2021 4:23 p.m. Edited.
most the Omnath, Locus of Mana decks ive seen use Walking Ballista as the win con and already use counter doublers to speed it up how would Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider be any diffrent?
January 8, 2021 6:18 p.m.
RambIe, you didn't say anything about Walking Ballista in your initial statement. Now if you said "This card seems great in decks that focus on +1/+1 counters and use Walking Ballista as a wincon." then to that point - I think it would be a nice fit, but I still think this card is much better in decks that have Infect/Poison as core mechanics.
January 9, 2021 3:06 p.m.
Mortlocke: "so for 4gg you wanna be able to one shot a player and take them out of the game? wow..just wow"
i find that comment, along with your comments of mana ramp, quite condescending and rude, and you misinterpreted what Peligrad was saying. they did not say they wanted to one shot a person for 6 mana. they did not say anything about "turn 6". they said "6cmc", not "turn 6".
being able to "give" it infect doesn't change the fact it doesn't synergize with itself. by the time you get 6 mana, i feel like your opponents should already have at least a few poison counters on them. rather than spend 6 mana to "set up", just use it to finish them off.
January 9, 2021 3:30 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #28
Also... blockers??
This thing doesn't protect itself, and given how much many players hate Infect it seems like this thing'll be countered or killed before you move to attacks (a turn after you play it, btw, no native Haste).
January 9, 2021 3:56 p.m.
Keqing420, okay. I'll own the rudeness. Peligrad I apologize for my comments. They were unwarranted. Your comments just made me think you expect every worthwhile card to basically be Urza, Lord High Artificer. Doubling Season (the closest thing to Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider) doesn't enable itself - but is considered good right? Maybe i'm crazy, but a doubling season-esque effect that also targets players and hinders opponents seems like a real contender to do some damage.
Omniscience_is_life OG Vorinclex didn't protect itself either. Honestly, I don't think players would deem Monstrous Raider as big of a threat to remove on the table by the time you're slinging 6 mana on the board. This card would shine in the mid-game: when you'd have infect counters on a player, a planeswalker in hand or board, or +1/+1 counters on creatures, and a means to get proliferation triggers on the stack.
January 9, 2021 4:51 p.m. Edited.
Peligrad, one more thought - what would be a realistic fix for Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider? I maintain that giving it Infect would be a horrible, terrible idea that would just make the card a literal auto-include in every single Green deck ever. What if it had Proliferate instead of Haste? Or had some means of gaining counters? A Lower CMC? What do you think could make this card work?
January 9, 2021 5:07 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #31
Oh lmao fuck me it does have haste and evasion. But I maintain that Small Clex is going to annoy players and get targeted--plus Big Clex does protect itself, through the virtue of making spells very difficult to cast against it.
January 9, 2021 5:12 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life: old vorinclex doesn't make removal spells harder to cast, it just leaves the caster with less mana the following turn.
January 9, 2021 6:19 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #33
Keqing420 all I mean to say is a lot of the time it forces your opponents to wait to remove it. That’s all. You’re point is valid, I misworded my statement
January 9, 2021 6:27 p.m.
Just wanted to point out, that regardless of everyones thoughts and opinions there is an extremely high probability that atleast one person that posted to this topic will loose to this card, even higher chance for the draft and standard players
January 9, 2021 6:41 p.m.
If you cant interpret lose from loose then feel free to submit a complaint to google for there speach to text and auto correct software. But posting to make a big deal out of it kinda makes you look like a doosh.
January 9, 2021 9:40 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #40
Going to have to back RambIe here. I have full faith in your assertive abilities, and even more so in your power to be understanding and kind. Let’s just be nice and talk about a shitty Praetor
January 9, 2021 10:04 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life - "Oh lmao fuck me it does have haste and evasion. But I maintain that Small Clex is going to annoy players and get targeted--plus Big Clex does protect itself, through the virtue of making spells very difficult to cast against it."
I really want this particular nomenclature to be a thing. Monstrous Raider (smallclex) is indeed inferior to it's older instance of Voice of Hunger (bigclex).
I'm hoping my ego isn't so bloated that i'm misinterpreting this, but I'm guessing you were referring to me when you said: "Going to have to back RambIe here. I have full faith in your assertive abilities, and even more so in your power to be understanding and kind. Let’s just be nice and talk about a shitty Praetor."
I mean, I'm definitely the only person in this thread who has been rude and unkind to my fellow magic player. To that point I want to apologize to you again Peligrad, I let my inner Timmy get me so excited about a card I couldn't see the forest from the trees and got mad when someone said my new favorite thing wasn't as good as I thought it was. I looked like a butt.
Now, revisiting the topic of the card...I only have one objection regarding the following statement "Let’s just be nice and talk about a shitty Praetor". Let's be real here people. Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider is a mediocre Praetor. Even mediocrity can make an impact, especially when we define it within the context of praetors. There is only one shitty praetor - Urabrask the Hidden. Now that is some real hot doo doo garbage.
January 10, 2021 5:28 a.m. Edited.
One of Mark Rosewater's teasers about Kaldheim (Blogatog source here) was: "a card that allows you to kill someone with poison"
I don't think this particular teaser note refers to smallclex. Puts on Tin-foil hat I heard about a rumored card that was discussed on a private Discord Server called Cataphract of the Swarm. I go on a small rant about it on my Atraxa infect deckpage, but if you don't want to visit it, i'll put the most important part from said rant into this post: what the card says. I did a quick lil' mock up for readability. Also, for any mod reading this please note the disclaimer and sources in the spoiler.
THIS CARD IS A RUMOR - NOT A CONFIRMED LEAK Show
I think this is what MaRo was referring to. Possibly. Or maybe my tinfoil hat is on too tight. Do you all think this card could potentially kill a player with Poison?
January 10, 2021 5:49 a.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #43
Mortlocke I probably should've tagged--I was referring to Keqing420 and their seemingly (you can never really be sure) backhanded remark regarding RambIe's spelling. Lesson learned.
But you're right, it is most definitely not a bad card, in fact I would go so far as to venture that it's pretty good. Also yes plz call them Big and Small
January 10, 2021 11:56 a.m.
Ramble: no offense dude, but your misspellings give me cause to not take you seriously. you made 3 in that last post alone.
January 10, 2021 3:10 p.m.
Keqing420 Do we really need to be taking each other seriously? This is Muugic: The Yu-gli-ohhing not Heart Surgery, or Jeopardy. Let's keep things on topic offers a tinfoil hat - do you think we'll see some poison in Kaldheim? Or will Phyrexia's presence be limited to smallclex?
January 10, 2021 3:16 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #46
I kind of wonder if the story is going to be that Small Clex just snuck out and did a little errand by himself on Kaldheim, and there are no other Phyrexian presences. There's no evidence to corroborate that guess, except that no other Phrexians have been spoiled
January 10, 2021 3:19 p.m.
mortlock: In a sense, yes, there should be "some" level of seriousness. What I mean is, if someone is constantly making spelling and grammar errors, then I cannot reasonably trust they know how to evaluate cards and decks. Just my personal opinion.
I don't think we'll see infect in kaldheim. There are other types of counters that new clex can help with, and I think that was wotc's intention rather than directly helping infect.
January 10, 2021 3:22 p.m.
Keqing420, well I can agree with you to a fault regarding your opinion. Note, I didn't say Infect - with my tinfoil hat theory but Poison counters. It is possible for players to acquire poison counters without taking combat damage from creatures with Infect. Are you willing to adjust your thoughts - or is it just smallclex you think will be roaming the plane, being hunted by Kaya (personally, I find the notion of that quite absurd. Kaya is just some B-Tier planeswalker - not a praetor.)
January 10, 2021 4:59 p.m.
mortlock: the things that give players poison counters, but arent related to infect, are things that can also affect other types of counters as far as i know. so when you specify "poison counters" i naturally assume infect. theres always the possibility of things like proliferate though. i'm not sure what you mean by "adjust my thoughts", since it kinda seems like you jump from gameplay to storyline there. i don't really follow the mtg story. i've only ever read one mtg book. i can't remember the title without pulling it back out, but some of the major characters included Akroma, Stonebrow, and Braids.
January 10, 2021 7:53 p.m.
Mortlocke: oops i meant to tag you but forgot the e
ZendikariWol says... #2
I genuinely can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
December 23, 2020 8:36 a.m.