Ad Nauseam Doomsday Zur

Commander / EDH Skuloth

SCORE: 263 | 389 COMMENTS | 171423 VIEWS | IN 141 FOLDERS


Graveyard Hate and Fun —Sept. 7, 2015

Voltaic Key -> Nihil Spellbomb
Mystical Teachings -> Tormod's Crypt
Contamination -> Counterbalance

I finally have a graveyard deck in my meta, so it is time for some hate. These two spells were chosen as the most efficient hate spells that did not hurt my graveyard. Rest in peace has been considered and will go into my collection of Zur targets that currently don't make the cut, but it will not make the main deck since it hurts my deck as well. Leyline is simply uncastable at 4 cmc, and it's not a card that I really want in my opener either meaning it will not see play in this deck.

The two cards coming out have been underperforming, however cuts from the list are always challenging since every card is generally worth playing in some way.

Counterbalance is something a friend has been pestering me to try, so I swapped it in as my third Zur target and will be testing it over the next few weeks.

A few days ago I wrote up a brief summary of some primary Doomsday facts on /r/competitiveedh.

In regards to ad nauseam, this update drops another 5 cmc from the deck. Seems good.

NarejED says... #1

You should consider adding in Soul Echo. It's unplayable by itself, but it doubles as a backup to Angel's Grace. The best part is, Zur can tutor for it, meaning you don't have to worry about getting both Nauseam and Grace in hand to win. This both saves you needing a 6th available mana and makes the combo several times easier to pull off (you'll only need worry about tutoring / drawing in Nauseam, rather than both Nauseam and Grace).

I'm surprised you're using Lab Maniac over the much more consistent Sickening Dreams win condition. Otherwise, looks like a pretty solid deck. I used to run something like this as a backup in my Zur deck. I ended up cutting it because the combo was clunky, inconsistent, and wasted too many deck slots. Zur plays better as a control deck with a backup of Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience, but if you're in a less competitive meta, Ad Nauseam combo is fine.

August 26, 2015 3:13 p.m.

Skuloth says... #2

This is not a control deck, and angel's grace is not part of the primary plan. There is no space for enchantments that don't do anything. If I'm swinging with Zur, necropotence wins the game the turn after it comes into play.

Ad Nauseam on it's own is enough to win the game, drawing about 25 cards. Ad Naueseam is a 1 card combo when the deck is built to cast it, and I don't want to turn that into a 2 card combo.

Sickening dreams is way too greedy since part of the cost is pitching your hand in addition to requiring significantly more cards in hand to kill the table than doomsday.

The wincon is doomsday into labman + draw spells.

This list is designed for an extremely cut throat meta and does quite well at those tables. It averages a turn 4 gold fish and fights through hate extremely well.

August 26, 2015 5:10 p.m. Edited.

Skuloth says... #3

Control Zur actually suffers pretty substantially at weaker tables by not having an efficient kill condition.

This same problem hurts him at high power tables as well, where he gives combo decks too much time to fight through the hate before killing them.

If you take a look carefully through the list you should notice that there are only 2 cards in here that are actually dead draws. Angel's grace and LabMan. With every other card advancing the combo in some way.

August 26, 2015 5:27 p.m.

NarejED says... #4

If you think control Zur suffers from inefficient kill conditions, clearly you've never played or played against a well-constructed one. Understandable. It utilizes land destruction and lockdown effects like Armageddon, Cataclysm, and Stasis to keep opponents in a state of near-impotence while Zur destroys them with commander damage through buff auras like Daybreak Coronet, Empyrial Armor, Ethereal Armor, and occasionally Phyresis. It's terrififyingly consistent and essentially unstoppable once Stasis hits field.

Also, regarding your earlier statement, you don't seem to understand how Ad Nauseam works. The most efficient use of the card is to cast it with Angel's Grace, Soul Echo, or Phyrexian Unlife in hand to draw your ENTIRE library and dump it using Sickening Dreams or a similar table-killing cantrip. The card can be used purely for drawing, but it's incredibly risky. Far better to utilize it to its full potential. The key highlight of the combo strategy is that it wins the same turn Ad Nauseam is cast 99% of the time, being that Grace is uncounterable by normal means and by the time you cast Dreams, you'll have at least two free counter spells in hand.

The Lab maniac alternative you're using is superior in the sense that Ad Nauseam isn't the only method available to destroy your own library (both Necropotence and Doomsday get the job done, as you mentioned), but it's inferior in that it's far more susceptible to responses. Opponents have an entire additional turn to respond to your combo. If your meta was anywhere near as cutthroat as you had suggested, the chances of actually being able to cast Lab and keep him on the field to draw out your last cards would be almost nonexistent unless everyone else at the table is running combo lists (if that's the case, you'll still lose out the much faster and more consistent 5-color Hermit and Ad Nauseam lists). That's why I had expressed surprise that you were running it earlier. I've played against a few decks that try to run Lab Man as a win condition, and they've been laughably easy to deal with. Once he's countered/exiled, the deck is, for lack of a better phrase, completely screwed.

Some cards you may consider:

Grand Abolisher. Combo decks tend to run him, and with very good reason. If opponents can't react to your casting Lab Man and a draw spell the same turn, that's game. His mana cost hurts a little, but your land and artifact base looks solid enough to handle him. At worst, he's drawing removal away. At best, he's guaranteeing your win. Should help you compete against true tier 1 decks with a bit more consistency.

Enlightened Tutor. I was incredibly surprised when I didn't see this one in your list. It's one of the single best turn 1 plays available, as early game is so often devoted to ramp.

Imperial Seal. See above. The cost is staggering, but you're running Timetwister, so I would guess you don't mind dishing out an absurd amount for a piece of cardboard.

August 26, 2015 10:09 p.m.

EndStepTop says... #5

Labman combos go off one turn, his primary pile isn't a "pass pile". As naus doesn't need to be a 2 card win when it functions in the manner it does along side doomsday. Etutor is awful when it brings card disadvantage and its only targets are found by Zur or trinket mage.

August 26, 2015 11:49 p.m.

Skuloth says... #6

I personally don't think you have read either the description of my deck or the reddit thread linked in it. Which supplies a ton of very useful information about how the deck operates, as well as answering most of your comments.

Imperial seal is on my buy list, but currently out of my price range, which it says in the doomsday update on tappedout.

This deck casts ad naus the end step before my turn and wins on my turn. Doomsday is a cast and win on the spot spell, if I'm passing the turn I severely screwed up in all but the most extreme cases.

This deck is as fast as any other top tier combo list and extremely resilient to hate. 5c hermit druid is no longer at the top since it is easily disrupted and barely faster than the more resilient combos. Devoted ad nauseam decks are either trying to be super cute (read mono B maralen / sidisi both of which are extremely easy to disrupt) or doing the exact same thing I am.

In regard to mana denial, it simply is not enough on its own to stop top tier combo strategies. Running voltron cards for Zur is extremely inefficient in multiple ways. First it requires a fairly substantial quantity of slots. Second it kills extremely slowly. Sure you are threatening their life total, but you are giving people all the time in the world to find ways out of your lock and top tier decks will be able to fight through it given enough time.

LabMan kill through infinite life, and 'can't be killed' effects, where sickening dreams does not. It also is just as efficient and does not open itself up to any additional hate other kills do.

Turning ad naus from a 1 card combo to a 2 card combo is unnecessary. The slots required to do that are not worth while since you rarely want to see the cards, and honestly you do not need your entire deck in hand to kill the table. Any reasonable ad naus will kill the table if your deck is constructed properly.

You 100% do not pass the turn with labman in play. It's a death sentence.

August 27, 2015 12:27 a.m.

NarejED says... #8

I read it, and I stand by my earlier case. The deck is typically a two-turn win combo, unless you have enough additional mana after casting Doomsday to both play a draw spell and cast Predict.

From my understanding, the optimum strategy goes something like this:Turn 2 (with a good draw): cast Doomsday. Turn 3: Draw Predict for the turn. Cast it. Throw Lab Man into the graveyard, Draw Gitaxian Probe and Lion's Eye Diamond. Sac the diamond if needed and draw and cast Yawgmoth's Will to recast the Diamond from your graveyard, use the mana to recast Lab Man, and finally recast the Probe to win. Or rather, plow into the ground, since you tipped off your opponents that you were about to combo out the moment you cast Doomsday, allowing them to prepare a suitable slew of counters, stax pieces, and library hate to keep you from going off.

Now I know you mentioned in the article that you have plenty of 'piles' for Doomsday, some of which no doubt involve protection, anti-counter effects like Cavern of Souls, etc. Even so, unless the rest of the table is completely clueless or its their first time seeing your list in action, they're likely going to do everything in their collective power to halt you the second you cast doomsday. Your basic pile falls against even a single well-placed counter spell. Even with a more resilient pile, you can't hope to win against multiple instant-speed responses unless you have Grand Abolisher or a similar Silence effect in play at the time. Your so called one-card-combo Ad Nauseam alternative win condition might be more resilient. You'll still have to cast Angel's Grace if you want to win using the same-turn lab man strategy unless I'm missing something (which is still technically a three-card combo when everything is said and done, not counting the ramp found and cast while drawing out your deck, despite your rather humorous claim about Nauseam being a one-card combo). Again, I may be missing something there.

August 27, 2015 1:31 a.m.

EndStepTop says... #9

This is gold. A+ trolling.

August 27, 2015 6:02 a.m.

Skuloth says... #10

In no situation do you want to pass the turn after casting doomsday. If the spell resolves the game is over excluding misplays.

General strategy. This is the average run down of a goldfished hand for the deck. It can be faster, it can be slower however it is almost always a turn 4 kill.

Turn 1: Ramp
Turn 2: Find ad nauseam or play Zur
Turn 3: Cast Ad Naus on their end step / Fetch Necro
Turn 4: Find and cast Doomsday. Win.

You are right, Ad Nauseam does not win the game on it's own. However from a decent life total it will draw you enough cards to win the game. Angel's grace is not necessary when using it because you will still have enough life to play doomsday post ad nauseam. You don't put yourself at 3 life and pray to survive.

The deck is designed in a way that if it draws 15-20 cards it will be able to win off of those cards. By both producing the mana it needs to go off, and finding the cards it needs to win.

The pile listed is the basic low mana investment no protection pile. Doomsday piles vary greatly based on what is in your hand when you cast it, and what you expect to fight through.

If I'm getting to the point where doomsday is resolving the counter war was fought over whichever spell got me to the point where I was able to win the game. That would be Necropotence or Ad Nauseam.

Why do you keep suggesting that you need to pass the turn to win after playing doomsday or labman? It does not make sense. If that was actually how things worked, it would be terrible.

You are commenting on a deck acting like you know everything while saying that you don't actually know how the deck operates. Play test the deck and if all you are going to do is be snarky and sarcastic, please do not continue posting on my list.

August 27, 2015 10:15 a.m. Edited.

TheCommonFig says... #11

What are your thoughts on Dark Petition? Does the higher cmc and spell mastery clause slow you down significantly? Or is it still worth any tempo loss?

September 3, 2015 7:10 p.m.

Skuloth says... #12

I really like it, in most cases its basically just demonic tutor number 2.

The worst part of it is getting smacked for 5 of ad nauseam.

Generally the only times I don't want to see it would be when I'm looking for ad nauseam, since I want to be casting it on my opponent's end step when the spell mastery from petition would be wasted.

It doesn't negatively effect my tempo or combo speed.

September 3, 2015 7:29 p.m.

PlattBonnay says... #13

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is Oblivion Ring better than Detention Sphere?

Since you are playing Force of Will, every extra blue card you have adds consistency to that, being able to take out token copies of things (while rare) is a useful upside, and I'm not seeing a way to abuse the multiple trigger aspect of Oblivion Ring so that is an irrelevant feature.

September 6, 2015 8:21 p.m.