Guy played with proxy Commander and it annoyed me
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 27, 2016, 2:17 p.m. by Argy
I play in a group where most of us have either bought pre-con decks, or invested a lot of time and money putting together our own lists.
Tonight a guy was playing with Archangel Avacyn Flip as his Commander and someone noticed it was a proxy.
His response was that the card was too expensive for him to buy. It's about AUS$70 at the the moment. He thought it was currently at AUS$40.
I would have appreciated him asking us at the start of the game if he could use a Commander proxy, but I really feel that he should have the actual card. It turned out to be a very effective Commander, as he was able to blink it.
TheFoilAjani says... #3
... And so what? He definitely should have asked if he could use a proxy, but he had the rest of the deck, so is it such a big deal? In addition, his Commander was no more effective as a proxy than a non-proxy, so your last sentence comes off a tad bit... whiny, I suppose.
But what exactly is the point of this post? Are you just relating this experience? If so, is it really that important? I'm afraid I don't understand what is going on here.
April 27, 2016 2:30 p.m.
griffstick says... #4
I have I problem with proxy cards if it's not in color and if it's not easy to recognize. Now the second problem I have is I don't like a whole deck of proxies.
if you have the card allready but it's in another deck and you don't feel like switching them out to other decks over and over again then I have no problem with the proxies cause I know you have one.
That's my take on proxies and that's how I feel. I also feel that if it's at the lgs no proxies should be enforced.
April 27, 2016 2:40 p.m. Edited.
iBleedPunk says... #5
My $0.02
Proxies in EDH are bullshit. If you have an EDH and cant get the pieces you need/want then use a weaker card as a placeholder. Budget or no budget
April 27, 2016 2:58 p.m.
I mean, sure, it's a little disheartening to the ego to see someone proxying while you yourself have paid out the ass for a deck, but is it really all that big of a deal? If he's got his own real deck and is just proxying one or two cards until he can afford it, then I don't see the problem.
Sure, I'll fully give you that he should've asked if it was OK first, AND I'd never allow proxies in a tourney or anything, but if he actually intends on buying the cards at some point and just doesn't have the funds yet, then what's the big deal? They'll be there soon. At least he can actually playtest it this way. In fact, I'd almost find it preferable. I'd hate to buy a $70 card only to see it doesn't pan out as much as I thought it would.
April 27, 2016 3:02 p.m.
Sounds like frustration at him doing decently more than anything.
It would be one thing if it were a tournament or if he were running a fully proxied deck that would normally cost thousands and was being a douche.
Quite another thing for some light competitive play where fun and a little bragging rights are at stake.
April 27, 2016 3:23 p.m.
He should have said something before the game began, allowing people to voice their opinions. Of course, if this were a sanctioned event proxies are not allowed.
I'm a big fan of proxying expensive cards to determine if I want to invest or not (I'm not dropping $120 on the playset of Phyrexian Obliterator until I'm damn certain it works in my build, to give a personal example). Of course, I inform my opponent that I'm testing with proxies and they can choose to decline to play a casual game. I also feel that if you have a big $ card and use it in multiple decks that proxying is just fine in casual play, but the player should always be up-front about it AND have the real card on-hand, in case of sanctioned event/opponents making a stink.
Unfortunately the original post seems to be motivated by butt-hurt more than anything.
April 27, 2016 3:33 p.m.
PistonGolem says... #9
I personally think that the only card that could be proxied is the general. The general never enters the hand or deck, so it can look different, but as long as it is recognizable by all. Meh $.02
April 27, 2016 3:46 p.m.
I'm with griffstick. Definitely ask first, and so long as the whole deck isn't proxied, I'm fine with it.
I played a game once at my LGS with a guy who had proxied his whole deck. He asked first, and we were all OK with it because we have pretty decent decks ourselves. Turns out his proxied deck was probably worth upwards of $3k USD and I think he won on t5 or t6. None of us ever played with him again and I won't play against a full deck of proxies anymore unless I know the guy/gal personally.
April 27, 2016 3:51 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #11
I don't see a problem with a few proxies here or there. I played with proxies in my Sigarda deck until I was able to piece it completely together. I was not going to pay for a Savannah until I found one in decent condition and at a reasonable price. Now my deck is completed with no proxies but it took me a minute to get all the pieces.
For the most part, like everyone else has stated, it should be known that you are running proxies and how many of them. This changes peoples opinions on your deck. So in my playgroup, when a new deck enters the field, if it has proxies, we make that person pull out all the proxies and show us which ones they have proxied so that there is no confusion before the game starts and if it's not a regularly played card, we can know what it does before the game starts especially since it is proxied, so we can definitively determine the correct oracle text.
As long as there isn't an absurd amount of proxies in the deck, my group has no problem with it. If they proxied the whole deck, even went as far as proxying 25 cent cards, then yeah, that's a big head turn and we say no sir. But in a casual environment, limited amount of proxies are fine.
April 27, 2016 4:08 p.m.
In my playgroup, we allow proxies of any amount or dollar value because we're very competitive but also poor college students. In our point of view, it comes down to skill not quality of cards. That being said, proxying is primarily for the purpose of playtesting. We each have our primary deck as well as proxied decks (and also some precons just for bad magic sometimes). Our primary decks are either complete or nearing completion, and we've spent time and money crafting them to satisfaction. My Crucible of Worlds is proxied, but should I feel like my victories don't count when it helps? No, because I still played correctly and secured my victory with my skill.
That being said, if someone brings a fully optimized pile of proxies to a table full of precons, that person is quite clearly in the wrong. Otherwise, I don't see the point in complaining about proxies.
As someone who still has a few proxies in his favorite deck, I can tell you it kind of sucks to draw one. They look like crap compared to the real cards, and I always feel a little pride when I replace a proxy with the legitimate card. So maybe just appreciate the cards you have, especially if you're satisfied with them.
April 27, 2016 4:12 p.m.
I actually recently proxied a whole deck to test it out because it was getting too annoying trying to test it out via online methods, especially because it was for multiplayer EDH.
I played it last night while drinking and not one of us had an issue with it. Though because I forgot to proxy my General (Yes, that's the one I forgot... >.<) I never did play Derevi as we got a couple drinks in and I completely forgot about him. To be fair though, I think most of us got too drunk to remember we had Commanders, as I know Superfriends never played his.
Now, why would I proxy an entire deck? Because I don't know where some of these cards that I have are. I know I probably have around half the deck too. And because the deck is a $140 deck or so. I'm not even proxying cards that are worth more than $5 in it, it's just much easier and faster as well as cheaper at a little over half a cent per card to proxy them and get a feel for how the deck runs.
So far I'm liking it a lot, and of course, one of my non-proxied cards, an Island, ended up doing some of the most damage in the game. (Mostly because the deck is about animating lands... Hehe). I'll probably play a few more games with it proxied first though before I start actually building the deck up, because my playgroup is okay with it.
That's the main thing, my playgroup is okay with using all proxied decks, as long as no one goes around proxying a deck of mostly $20+ cards. Hell, we let a couple of ours proxy Palinchron (Because none of us could find it locally) despite the overall power. None of us feel worse losing to a proxy card however. We just want to have fun.
April 27, 2016 4:23 p.m.
Just play the goddamn game. Why care if he didn't spend money on his commander? The form of your commander doesn't impact the gameplay in any way, I have used a soda can as a commander proxy when i didnt have mine.
Unfair because others spent money on their commander? Well thats the kind of reasoning that ruins the fun for everyone.
April 27, 2016 4:29 p.m.
PistonGolem says... #15
I do not have access to a lot of money, and I spent 60 bucks on the game TOTAL, so yes, the game can get expensive, I would prefer to make entire proxy decks just to try before buy. But isn't EDH just a fun, semi-casual format? Does it matter?
April 27, 2016 4:37 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #16
I think the social vs casual distinction is important here. Ask first. In our group you can proxy stuff, but if you plan to play the deck regularly we would hope one would eventually buy/find the cards.
It came from the fact that one of the guys proxied a whole deck on white paper with only black ink...kind of annoying, but we worked around it.
April 27, 2016 5 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #17
Commander is primarily a social format, and a mismatch between reality and expectations in a social situation can very easily turn it into a negative experience. If part of the "social contract" (whether spoken or unspoken) among this group is that they either play with real cards or ask/notify each other about any proxies then I understand the aggravation. Yes, in the grand scheme of things this is the opposite of a big deal, but it's not something to be brushed aside as being stupid or irrelevant. Social interactions are a real thing.
April 27, 2016 5:07 p.m. Edited.
OP is in the wrong because their reasons are bull. "Did not spend money, doesn't deserve win" is not a healthy state of mind for this game.
That said, in general, one should always check to make sure that everyone is OK with any number of proxies and what they are before the game begins. Some people, like the OP, may feel wrongly cheated which can cause unnecessary trouble for all parties.
April 27, 2016 5:08 p.m.
I have played with a proxy once or twice. For me the rule of thumb has always been "Ask beforehand". If they have a problem, have a sub card ready to slip into the deck. Most playgroups are casual, and they don't care, but some are cutthroat and want you to have the cards. The only card(s) I have proxied right now are my Crucible of Worlds and my Jace, the Mind Sculptor, for different reasons. The Crucible I cannot find one anyone will trade me a copy and I cannot afford one to buy, and the Jace I have one (in Spanish) and I proxy it in English so people can know what he does (I can read Spanish so I am ok, but those I play with can't). That's why I do it. If anyone has a problem, I am ready to switch them out.
April 27, 2016 5:56 p.m.
Lightpulsar9 says... #20
I actually had an opponent while playing EDH one friday, that was playing a full proxy deck, aside from basics. He said the deck had a few proxies, but that was obviously a lie. Then he proceeded to never pay into a Rhystic Study and feed the blue player massive amounts of cards for no reason. So not only was his deck not under our consent, but he was also a terrible player and ruined the game for everyone. Needless to say, I've not played with him again. As long as your friend isn't like this guy, I'd say it's fine.
April 27, 2016 6:05 p.m. Edited.
This is a bit of a grey area when it comes to proxies. I think there is a certain amount of warrant in running proxies, especially to playtest cards, however the onus is on the person proxying to be upfront about it PRIOR to the game starting. They also need to be upfront about how many cards are proxies. If somebody is running a proxy of a $2 card I dont really care. But if at a casual table somebody is proxying a cycle of ABURS then my attitude might be different.
But the most important thing about playing proxies is a player's attitude. If somebody id going to be a prick about the fact that they're winning while running power proxies then I will generally have no time for that person. Its kind of like hiring a really nice car and showing off that it goes fast. That's great that the car is fast, but its not yours so you can't take the same kind of credit for it.
April 27, 2016 6:37 p.m.
I proxy at home while playtesting, for fun with custom cards by myself, and at the kitchen table with a like-minded individual.
I brought my proxies out in public once as loaners and quickly realized / scuffled them away.
April 27, 2016 6:45 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #23
sure, he should say it before the game began, but I feel like in a casual EDH setting that proxies are fine.
personally, I'm working on a The Gitrog Monster deck right now, and I put together a list and still have about 15 proxies in it. I always say that I have proxies, but I intend to buy them over time. proxies just allow me to actually play the deck in the meantime instead of waiting for a year to have enough money to buy all the fucking fetchlands.
April 27, 2016 6:49 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #24
too late to edit, but I thought I'd say that I agree with vault's point of view in the matter.
April 27, 2016 6:56 p.m.
I don't mind proxies. I put some in my first EDH deck--before I realized you don't really need them--and my cube has a few for cheap cards I haven't bothered ordering yet.
But the commander is a bit of an exception. If I ever do build that Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck I want to, I will definitely have a proxy Crucible of Worlds and use a judge promo commander...even though she could almost trade for a legit crucible. Commanders are special. If you're going to proxy one, make it a special proxy by doing something like erasing a junk foil and printing it on that.
April 27, 2016 7:31 p.m.
I felt funny about the proxy as soon as it was recognised, NOT when it started to be flickered. I mentioned it's successfulness just to demonstrate that it had an impact on the game.
I wouldn't have had a big problem with it if the Player had said he was testing it. Initially I thought that was what he was doing and really didn't have a problem with it.
It was when he made it quite clear that he had no intention of buying the card, due to its cost, that I had a problem.
Other Players use proxies in our group if they don't want to move cards around in their decks, but they always demonstrate first that they own the actual cards.
April 27, 2016 8:12 p.m.
Yea pretty shitty to basically say "I'm a cheapskate, deal with it." especially given the context of how your group rolls.
April 27, 2016 8:16 p.m.
If the "social contract" of the group is that you only proxy cards if a) you already own them in other decks or b) you're testing a card prior to buying it then I can understand the issue you have taken by the player's attitude of "stuff it, I'll just proxy the card I can't afford any you can all deal with it".
April 27, 2016 9:08 p.m.
MirranTitan says... #29
The funny thing at the end of the day is Archangel Avacyn Flip is way overpriced (currency-wise)... and she doesn't do as much or different than other boros generals.
The guy playing a proxy is not different than players who have their own "custom" version of a general.
I see this a lot, and now, knowing that the commander is never going to get tucked, it's just a placeholder anyway, so I personally have no problem with a proxy of that nature.
April 27, 2016 11:18 p.m.
MirranTitan, Archangel Avacyn Flip is expensive at the moment due to its usefulness in Standard.
That may change once it rotates out of that format.
April 27, 2016 11:59 p.m.
MirranTitan says... #31
I get that's she's solid in standard, I understand that full-well. But 50+$ solid? I'm not so sure.
April 28, 2016 midnight
MirranTitan the other thing about Archangel Avacyn Flip at the moment is that she literally just won the Standard Pro Tour.
It isn't that she is "worth the money", but these are the reasons why she is fetching so much.
I use her in Standard and she has won a lot of matches for me.
April 28, 2016 12:04 a.m. Edited.
This is how Archangel Avacyn Flip was being used in EDH the other night:
- Flicker her whenever necessary to make Player's Creatures Indestructible, or on Opponent's End Step prior to Player's Upkeep
- Use sac ability of Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
- Do 3 damage to all Creatures and Opponents at the beginning of next Upkeep when she Transforms, usually also making a 2/2 Zombie Token
- Repeat
April 28, 2016 12:20 a.m. Edited.
I'll take your OP as just venting then.
I get the frustration at the way he snuck it in. I get that your group has an honor system. I still don't really see the point of the hullabaloo though other than minor irritation. At the end of it all he's just a guy that put together a good deck (or netdecked it). Despite the irritation I'd think it would be better to just congratulate him on a great brew and encourage him to finish the build properly while noting your group's play preferences.
April 28, 2016 12:23 a.m.
Oh I didn't make any negative Comments to him about his deck.
I just found my (private) reaction to it interesting, and was curious about how others saw the whole thing.
Result.
April 28, 2016 12:27 a.m.
PistonGolem says... #36
Argeaux I thought that if you used Archangel Avacyn Flip as a general then you can't run Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
April 28, 2016 8:36 a.m.
TheFoilAjani says... #37
I'm glad that you could share this. If the dude had no intention of buying the real card, then your feelings are definitely valid. That guy sucks.
I think it's interesting how he played a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (B) in his Archangel Avacyn Flip commander deck (W/R). Care to elaborate?
April 28, 2016 8:37 a.m.
My two cents about proxies in Commander:
I have no problem with someone proxying a card that has a unique effect (like, say Eureka) which he didn't have the time or money to buy/trade for. It's difficult to replace this card by any other one (maybe I'm wrong, it's just an example ) and if it's important in your deck, go play it as a proxy. Especially if it's a fun card.
I don't get why people proxy cards like Savannah only for power reason, when they could play any other bicolored land instead, which would be less powerful but have (almost) the same effect. Does playing Selesnya Guildgate instead remove any of the fun of your game? Does it change drastically your deck's strategy?
About your situation Argeaux, I have no problem with someone proxying his commander as obviously it has quite a unique effect that is needed in the deck. Especially as in this case it's an expensive Standard card that could see its price go downhill once it had rotated out.But he should have told you prior to the game of course.
April 28, 2016 10:02 a.m.
You people are TOTALLY correct.
I wonder why none of us picked up that he shouldn't have run Kalitas?
He had Nomad Outpost in as well. Maybe that threw us off?
Savannah over Selesnya Guildgate might be for its Plains / Forest functionality?
April 28, 2016 10:05 a.m. Edited.
Sorry for double post.
You could just use Canopy Vista to get the Forest/Plains effect.
I know I checked with the Player why he had 
cards and he mentioned Archangel Avacyn
Flip's flip side.
Maybe I got it wrong and he wasn't using Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Didn't get much sleep last night and I've now had seven hours in the last 48.
It might have been another card that had a similar interaction.
April 28, 2016 10:15 a.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #41
@Argeaux you were referencing the pro tour, i think, as you had talked about it in the earlier post.
April 28, 2016 11:25 a.m.
Ah could be.
I'm all over the shop at the moment. My apologies.
Suffice it to say that he was flickering Avacyn, not sure how, then constantly saccing something to make it Transform on the next upkeep.
I remember that part because I thought it was quite clever.
April 28, 2016 11:54 a.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #43
Goblin Bombardment and Goblin Assault would do it.
April 28, 2016 7:28 p.m. Edited.
metalevolence says... #44
As long as you can easily tell what the cards are at a glance, proxies are fine.
I'd even go as far as saying anyone who objects to others using proxied cards is an asshole, so long as the proxies don't impede gameplay.
Cards are game pieces that also happen to be collector's items, but as someone who just wants to play some good magic, it doesn't matter at all. I think it's childish to think players who don't have a lot of money to waste on games somehow "deserve" to be restricted to worse game pieces.
Spending money or not spending money on this game doesn't make you better or worse than anyone else.
This is coming from someone who owns basically every card that's good in EDH, and a has collection worth thousands of dollars.
April 29, 2016 10:37 a.m. Edited.
You're right, Metalevolence, so long as people just want to play good magic, proxy vs collection does not matter. But as long as the Pro Tour exists and people are winning real money with real cards, the precedent for using real cards in tournaments provides a layer of "legitimacy" that makes having real cards the expectation, and proxies an exception, even in casual settings.
It's further complicated by the fact that most players, especially EDH players, DO care a great deal about their collections and like to show off what their collection can do. If someone waltzes up with a proxied deck of more expensive cards, the effort and sacrifice the players have put into acquiring the actual cards is for naught, and that's what upsets folks about all-proxy decks.
Until proxying becomes so commonplace that it's generally accepted at casual tables, this will continue to be a point of contention between those who value their collection of actual cards, and those who just want to play the best magic possible and don't care about owning cardboard rectangles.
April 29, 2016 11:02 a.m.
metalevolence says... #46
I would hope that anyone who has spent a serious amount of money on magic cards realizes that they are, in fact, nothing more than cardboard rectangles.
I think proxies upset people who haven't realized that paying lots of money for game pieces is really stupid. Well, better to rip that bandaid off sooner than later, before you spend even more. Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro has created a system to make people feel like magic cards are somehow special, legitimate and valuable, using things like rarity and organized tournaments, but the reality is at the end of the day they are just colored bits of cardboard.
...I think I'm going to sell my collection soon. $3000, any takers? I have a bunch of zendikar fetchlands, gaea's cradle, mana crypt, jtms, crucible, survival, and a bazillion other expensive things.
April 29, 2016 11:16 a.m.
IncredibleFrown says... #47
The only time I've been annoyed by proxies was in high school, when we had a semi-regular EDH thing going during the lunch break. We all used proxies, but only one guy used proxy islands. Not, like, Volcanic; Basic Island. "I don't have enough!", he'd say. "I will get you some. My cup runneth over," I'd say. Nope. He didn't want 'em.
They weren't even nice art, just the first tenth edition image on magiccards.info. That frickin guy.
May 2, 2016 6:19 p.m.
MonoGreenKing says... #48
When I first started Magic I knew someone who used proxies for the duel lands in his Rafiq deck. He said he had no real intention of buying the anytime soon. I was okay with this but someone else was not. I mean it really is up to the opinion of the people you play.
When I first built my Maelstrom Wanderer deck I did not have him because my card shop did not have any and i did not plan on ordering one online, but I planned on buying one eventually. I used a different card, not even putting a printed picture of him over it. Not saying what the card was because it was something that had nothing to do with him and people thought it was funny. I asked at the beginning of each game because I did not know if people were against it, they we're okay with it because my play group is chill on stuff like that.
Arvail says... #2
Proxies are fine as long as you're not playing in an event AND everyone agrees to it. This isn't the case here. He's in the wrong.
April 27, 2016 2:25 p.m.