Looking to get into the competitive level of EDH and could use advice (this is a long post)
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 13, 2013, 2:31 a.m. by Joshuawesome
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or not, and if it isn't, my apologies. Also, this is one of those "TL:DR" sort of posts, so if reading isn't your thing, you may wanna stop here.
Allow me to start with brief history about me, so you can see where I'm coming from. I initially started playing MtG in late '97 right after the Tempest set came out. I was instantly hooked. I didn't play in any tourneys or anything, usually just with friends or random schmoes at the comic shop but it was always extremely casual. I played almost everyday for about 3 years and stopped playing right before Odyssey was released.
I just started playing again a few months ago (the same weekend Gatecrash was released) and quickly became hooked again. I literally only know two people in my area who play MtG, my nephew and his friend Brandon, and as such I began building and buying intro-level Standard decks. My nephew, who I play with the most, doesn't roll Standard, and as such would always mop the floor with me, but hey I was having fun so it didn't matter too much. It was through him I was introduced to the Commander/EDH format which I instantly fell in love with.
Immediately, I began crafting out Commander decks so I could start playing him in that format. I made one I really like (10th Man Down) but it's still at that introductory level that I'm trying to get out of. Not to mention, my nephew is extremely competitive and as such will probably beat me mercilessly (the decks he makes seem to always have an answer for everything). I've decided I want to up my game, and not only come at him with something that is effective on a competitive level, but something I can take to my nearby card shop and wow strangers with, hopefully expanding my playgroup to more than two other people.
That's where you come in. I need help deciding which Commander to go with, what archetype to play (reanimator, voltron, etc), and which direction to take it in. If any of you have seen the various decks I make and post, you know I'm a very indecisive person and I like to experiment with a bunch of different ideas. I want to commit to something, I'm just not sure what I want to commit to. Any help at all would just knock my socks off.
I know I definitely want to go with three colors. I'm a huge fan of options, and I feel that the more colors I incorporate, the more options I'll have. I'm a big fan of Green mana as I like having easier access to ramp spells/abilities and I feel green decks just have an easier time of getting-up-and-going than decks without green. I'm also a big blue fan, but I want to stay away from things like counterspells. I want to use more subtle means of denial than just up and announcing "Nope, I won't let you do that".
All that being said, I've looked through all of the tri-color legendary creatures and there's two in particular I like, but I'm just not sure what I want to do with them. I probably have ADD. Those legends are Rubinia Soulsinger
and Sen Triplets
. I like Rubinia for the "Hey, thanks for the extra Commander" factor and, despite the lack of green, I like the Triplets for their "Hey, thanks for the extra spells" factor. Ruby has green which allows me to incorporate ramp spells, while the Triplets have black which lets me murderify some of their guys (which I absolutely love doing).
I'd love some opinions. Which of the two would be better for what I'm trying to do? Would you suggest a different Commander? I will gladly pay you Tuesday for some advice today. Thank you for taking the time to read this (if you did, in fact, read this). Also, for what it's worth, I'm thinking $350 maximum to start budget-wise, I'll probably up that as time progresses and I improve whatever deck I make.
Joshuawesome says... #3
I didn't even consider that. There's always that one nonbasic land that lets you produce mana of the same colors your opponents can, but it's name eludes me and it's just one land. Good point though.
May 13, 2013 3:20 a.m.
hey there, my 1st EDH deck was a Sen Triplets deck and I can tell you it is definitely competitive and fun to play. I started with lots of counters then later removed most in exchange for bounce and death spells as counterspells are a little crappy in a casual / competitive setting (a little antisocial IMO). Both iterations work nicely. I am now playing it a little bit more artifact heavy just cuz I fancied a change. Stuff like Vindicate will set you back a pretty penny but are totally worth it. Obzedat's Aid just got printed which is super cool and there are lots of awesome effects like Mortify and Unmake you can run too, as well as the ever important Spin into Myth for and Condemn for dealing with pesky commanders. your budget will allow for a very good list including dual lands (not ABUR lands but ravnica and core and innistrad duals) that will sort your mana easily and let you play as competetively as you want really. What other information would like mate?
May 13, 2013 3:23 a.m.
This might seem kinda obvious, but if you like the option of stealing your opponents commander or anything else than Merieke Ri Berit is the best option since she will bury the creature you steal (or if the commander make them recasting more difficult) an example of which is my Doctor Who flavoured Hello Sweetie deck. The reason I see why you chose Rubinia was for the access to Green mana which you seem to love. As for which you should go for I would suggest Esper over Bant, since you'll get access to Black and their answers.
Also the card you were thinking of Joshuawesome was Exotic Orchard .
May 13, 2013 3:37 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@Joshuawesome: That wouldn't matter. If any effect would ever add to your mana pool any mana of a color not within your commander's color identity, that mana is replaced with the same amount of colorless mana instead. You can never have or make mana that isn't within your commander's color identity, regardless of the effect or its source.
As far as the idea of competitive EDH, there are a lot of things to consider. EDH has, by nature, many possible strategies and decks. Even competitive EDH is varied. What you play is mostly dependent on your budget, preferences, and meta. There are no hard and fast rules. In fact, I have only two overarching guidelines for you:
- Build a deck that's appropriate for the role you are trying to fill. If you want a hardcore, victory-oriented deck, then there are no real restrictions. However, if you want to limit the deck (within reason) such that semi-competitive players can still enjoy games with you, then you should consider what exactly is considered acceptable or unacceptable for your meta.
- Build something you actually want to play. It seems like you're already on the right path, here, but make sure the deck you end up designing and producing is one you will enjoy using. Don't build a competitive deck that you hate. It'll bite you in the end.
I have an article, Building an EDH Deck, that covers some basic and intermediate aspects of deckbuilding. Start there, then consider what kind of approach you want to take. There are many archetypes:
- Voltron: aims to win with general damage
- Combo: aims to win with infinite combos or locks
- Control: typically used as a supporting element because it lacks a true win condition
- Combo-control: aims to combine two synergistic archetypes into one powerful deck
- Stax: attrition-based control
- Group hug: aims to prolong games and aid other players
Those are just a few examples. Competitive circles tend to see mostly combo-control decks because such decks are, on average, the most powerful and consistent. 1v1 circles allow Voltron to be a viable strategy, but multiplayer pods present too many threats for Voltron builds to handle effectively or quickly.
I personally play Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition. It's a $3000 combo-control deck that focuses on brutal speed and denial, and it's tuned for multiplayer environments (although it can easily handle 1v1s). You might look through the list and get a feel for what competitive EDH can entail. Do some research on other competitive decks as well. See if any of the core concepts speak to you. Try looking for decks built around
May 13, 2013 3:50 a.m.
DragonXDoom says... #7
As for casting stuff with Sen Triplets , there are a couple of cards which allow you to.
Namely Celestial Dawn , False Dawn , and North Star can all do this (North Star can only be used for spells, mind you.)
May 13, 2013 5:05 a.m.
Esper is really good as you have access to the most tutors, board wipes and control cards
Also use mana rocks for ramp as they work just fine no need for green
May 13, 2013 6:31 a.m.
Joshuawesome says... #9
After reading what everyone's written (which I appreciate) and reading Epoch's "Building an EDH Deck" article a couple times, I'm still very much on the fence as far as what route to take.
In response to what DukeNicky posted, Merieke Ri Berit
is obviously superior to Rubinia Soulsinger
, but the lack of green makes me hesitate. Of the Commanders that Epochalyptik suggested, I really like Sharuum the Hegemon
and Damia, Sage of Stone
, but I don't like the Sharuum almost always involves working the exact same combo over and over, at least from what I've read (Sharuum + Sculpting Steel
+ insert card here), and having beheld the glory that is Epoch's Damia deck (Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition) I know I couldn't reach that level of awesomeness using the same Commander without basically cutting and pasting the deck list.
I'm after something that I can more or less make mine without being an almost identical duplicate of what someone else has done.
Ultimately, I think I'm going to end up going with Sharuum because I love what Esper brings to the table in the form of control and removal. I'm choosing Sharuum over some of the other Esper choices because I think I could do the most with her. Merieke Ri Berit
is another good Esper card, but I guess I'm looking for something a little more edgy. Zur the Enchanter
seems viable as well, but it seems like a deck with him is either going to be very awesome (and done before) or mediocre (if I make it my own).
I'm thinking a Control/Combo theme, something that stalls the game, keeping me safe until the pieces are in order after which I'll "awaken the dragon" so to speak. I'm going to try to avoid the typical, expected Sharuum combos while still trying to maintain a similar level of effectiveness.
May 13, 2013 11:14 a.m.
It's funny how many times I end up suggesting Tawnos's Coffin to EDH players. If I ever get my T/O rating into the top 100, I'll probably have to change my title to "Suggests Coffins" or something.
May 13, 2013 12:17 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #11
Okay, I'll bite. Tawnos's Coffin . If you're suggesting it for the reason I suspect, isn't there easier ways to blink or flick Sharuum out of play? By easier I mean less costly :P Unless I'm completely misunderstanding, then by all means, I'm very interested to hear why.
May 13, 2013 12:21 p.m.
I see the use for the Coffin save your creature from a board wipe or spot kill and it retains all counters and auras attached to it. That wording though @_@ lol thanks the gods for gatherer
May 13, 2013 12:28 p.m.
hunter9000 says... #13
I have a Sen Triplets deck that I love, it has a wizard tribal theme, with lots of steal and bounce effects. What's yours is mine (Sen Triplets Wizard EDH). It's really good 1v1 against all but the fastest decks I've played it against. It's not combo-oriented, although it does have a few hard-lock combos in it. It's about taking your opponents' stuff and using it against them, and denying them the use of anything you don't take. It also has Merieke it it, so if I get bored I can swap out the commander. And Mycosynth Lattice is another card that lets you cast opponents' cards, but it also can help your opponents.
May 13, 2013 6:52 p.m.
@joshuawesome
With the Coffin and 3 mana open, Sharuum is functionally invulnerable to everything except direct exile of the coffin or both the coffin and Sharuum. With any sacrifice engine at all, to turf the coffin in response to exiling Sharuum, you basically can't get rid of her.
Additionally, it becomes repeatable flickering with any means in play of untapping artifacts, and is a minimum of one bounce per turn at EoT.
May 13, 2013 8:54 p.m.
Huzzah!
Yeah it was a pretty nice 'AHA' moment when I realised that the interaction of the Coffin means that only exiling the coffin stops them from being able to protect each other. That's why my Sharuum EDH is called "Damn you Dust to Dust "
May 13, 2013 9:10 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #17
This is what I got so far. Feel free to offer suggestions/advice. I'm really not sure what to do with it goal wise aside from what's in the description.
Aes Caelum: Throne of a Manufactured Goddess
May 13, 2013 9:25 p.m.
don't forget that in your turn when you have targeted somebody with Sen Triplets it locks them out allowing you to do alot of things they can't stop during your turn meaning if you run any control you can save it for their turns or EOT and it becomes a very good advantage maker. If you run Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir you are golden, i also tend to run Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation cuz flash = profit :-)
May 14, 2013 5:06 a.m.
Playing EDH competetively is all about politics. Its not pissing off the guy who can kill you, but having a response to him trying to if he decides to try. Also, tutoring for cards to set yourself up is a must. That's why Zur, the Enchanter is considered the best EDH general, because he tutors for any CMC 3 or less enchantment and puts it into play. In my opinion, EDH is a casual format and should be played as such. Build a good deck, but have fun playing it.
May 16, 2013 7:53 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #20
I agree xBALLSx with the fun playing it statement, and I think that's a big part of my problem. I build decks, just to realize afterwards I wouldn't really enjoy playing it.
As far as Zur the Enchanter
goes, I've considered it... his ability is the balls... but all the good Zur decks I find for ideas seem to be almost identical clones of each other. I'm considering trying my hand @ Azami, Lady of Scrolls
.
May 16, 2013 9:39 p.m.
I've seen her better used in decks rather than as the general, such as B/G wizard Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, but she is still a great commander.
May 17, 2013 1:04 a.m.
If you think that Zur the Enchanter leads to one trick pony decks, almost all Azami, Lady of Scrolls decks seem to end up winning in the same way. You draw a whole bunch of cards really quickly until you get to your combo cards and win. Typically this ends up with a deck that takes advantage of extra turns since the easiest way to win with her to draw lots of extra cards by taking extra turns. If you want to see an example of the deck check out my deck The Melancholy of Azami which is a budgeted version of the archetype.
May 17, 2013 12:23 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #23
andydw, I've browsed a few Azami decks and yeah, alot of them are similar. The Zur decks I've looked at are almost identical lists tho, with the exception of maybe 5-6 cards. I'm not trying to bash Zur, I think he's great, but I don't wanna build something someone else built. If I can just cut and paste a deck list, what's the point?
May 17, 2013 10:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Netdecking is an interesting concept. I think it applies in many respects, but I don't believe it should ever be used to the exclusion of personal instinct and customization. Netdecks are even less absolute in EDH. You should build as you like. Granted, some decks just work better than others at the competitive level, and you will often see similarities between the top competitive decks in any format. Despite that, you can still have variations. Even Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition, which I codesigned with a friend of mine, is but a variation on a specific build. There are a few differences between my deck and the next; even my friend doesn't run the exact same lineup.
Conversely, be careful about the extent to which you want to separate yourself from the norm. Some things are popular because they work, and a competitive deck cannot really afford to ignore too many practical and effective combos, cards, and strategies without sacrificing its performance.
May 17, 2013 10:26 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #25
I agree completely Epochalyptik. I've attempted a couple Zur decks and I always found myself deviating too far, causing them to not function as well as other Zur decks out there. As I'm still a newbie when it comes to EDH, I often find myself looking at other people's decks to understand what works and how things flow together. Many of them have the exact same staples, and taking away from that weakens the deck in my opinion. Zur is a great Commander, which is why it's done so much - he's essentially a tutor every time he attacks. There are only so many different combinations of 3 CMC or less enchantments out there that work well together or are beneficial within his color scheme. If I work completely from scratch, then compare it, it doesn't hold a candle. I'd like to reiterate, I think he's an amazing Commander, but he's also an extremely popular one, if not the most popular one, but until my skill level is higher to where I am 100% sure what I'm doing, it's not an undertaking I want to attempt.
I'm happy with how my Azami deck (Ab Incoepto: The Deepest Blue) is so far. I made it a point not to investigate other Azami decks (aside from looking at a few different combos) and I like how it turned out. Of course, as new (again) as I am to MTG and the EDH format, I know it needs work, and I'm content I'll get there.
May 17, 2013 10:35 p.m.
Joshuawesome says... #26
Alright, I caved... trying a Zur the Enchanter
EDH deck: Zur the Carpathian.
Wrote a thread about it here.
Timekeeper says... #2
Well, because of the mana rules of commander, one has to jump through quite a few hoops to make Sen Triplets ' spell stealing ability work properly. Specifically, mana you produce can only be of the colors of your general. If, somehow, you would produce a mana of another color (say you stole a land with Nightveil Specter ), that source produces colorless mana instead. Meaning you will only be able to cast blue, black, and white spells form your opponents' hands.
Just something to consider.
May 13, 2013 3:16 a.m.