Anyone else think Paradox Engine (and Dramatic reversal/Scepter) can bump Arcum back up to tier 1? I'm bout to go make a list...

I see, and on the other side of this coin this group seems to be very excited about Thrasios, Triton Hero. I'm sorry to say that I spent a good while back tracking up the 400+ comments and gave up before finding the discussion about this card. Are we talking about it being able to partner with another partner mechanic card or having it on it's own? What would be the main win-con for Thrasios?

Partnering with pretty much anything that brings .

I found a pretty interesting guide for Thrasios for those interested. Thoughts?

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/761412-thrasios-triton-hero-to-infinity-and-beyond

For those not interested in reading, the TL:DR would be that the top 2 partners are Thrasios, Triton Hero + Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix for the simic infinite mana combos and Tymna the Weaver instead of Kydele.

Thrasios can really do a ton of different archetypes to be honest. He can do Hermit Druid, Boonweaver Giant combo, eggs, storm, tasigur control, dramatic scepter seems to be the best win con based on thrasios' ability, followed by bomberman, followed by monolith combos

cool, thanks for the info :)

The linked Daretti list is from 2014 Dec 27. Let's get an updated list. :)

Sheldon Menery did a mailbag Q and A yesterday. Thought this was worth sharing if anyone didn't see it.

Q: Has there been any uptick in chatter over the past six to twelve months on whether particular, specific cards should be banned? In other words, is there any particular card people are talking about much more now than they used to? I remember you saying somewhere that Iona, Shield of Emeria had been a more popular topic of discussion recently, but I might be just wishful thinking.

A: Not really. After banning Prophet of Kruphix, we got into a particularly good spot.

Looks like Leovold's safe for now

Edit: Also of interest

Q: Do you read banlist discussions? If so, then what is the most ridiculous or out of place card you've seen discussed?

A: I do indeed read them (although I frequently skip ahead during the Sol Ring discussions). There are often out-of-place cards, because people will post about the latest card to annoy them. Zendikar Resurgent recently came up and I was totally confused. That card seems emblematic of the format: expensive and epic.

The second part doesn't matter, but the fact that he skips past Sol Ring banning discussions likely means he has no interest in seeing it banned. And if sol ring isn't getting banned, Mana Crypt/Vault isn't ever getting banned, so we can put that discussion to rest.

He also made some comments that imply that he might actually support cEDH.

Q: Lotus Petal. Underrated, overrated or somewhere in between?

A: It's perfect, because if I see someone playing it in Commander, I know exactly what kind of player they are.

If you're playing Lotus Petal, you're likely playing cEDH, and he seems to be absolutely fine with that. Just thought that was some interesting insight. He also makes mention in other places in the article that he thinks locally "banning" cards from the format is what you should be doing if you don't like them, as they probably aren't going to be actually banned, or create house rules that an infinite combo can only do "5-10 iterations before it's forced to stop". Seems like he's opposed to actually forcing the format to power down, and instead wants people to make house rules for it.

This doesn't really apply to cEDH more to my playgroup, if I had my druthers I'd house ban cards like memnarch. It just feels like the stupidest wincon. If you're making infinite mana just blue sun and call it a day. Seriously.

I don't mean that cEDH players are going to make house rules, I was just pointing out that he was saying "you should make house rules if you don't like super tuned combo decks" instead of "we don't support people making/playing cEDH decks, we are going to be actively keeping an eye out to see what we should ban next".

I know, I wasn't providing commentary on your post, simply running parallel and bitching about my meta :P

Since we're talking about Sheldon's article, I'd like to bring up a few other questions I found interesting, starting with this:

Q: Can I have Gifts Ungiven back?

A: No, because you've been nice without it, but if we give it back, you'll be naughty.

Obviously the question is a little vauge (the questioner doesn't explicitly ask for unbanning of Gifts Ungiven) and the response is very flippant and tongue-in-cheek. Still, I think the fact that this guy thinks Gifts Ungiven is too much but that shit like Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Survival of the Fittest, etc. are okay speaks volumes about his view on the format. Is Gifts Ungiven really so much better than all of these cards that it's worth keeping banned? Is it really that much better than just Intuition? I won't get into it now, but I don't think it is that much better and I don't think it should be banned.

Here's another one:

Q: How do you decide what is banworthy and why have Derevi, Empyrial Tactician; Tooth and Nail; and Iona, Shield of Emeria not made the ban list?

A: For the first part of your question, you can check out our Philosophy document, which lays out how and why we ban cards. For the second part, the short answer is that we don't think they currently meet the criteria. We don't ban cards lightly, taking a more conservative approach. We prefer a list which is as short as possible. We'd rather leave something borderline legal than ban it just in case. We don't do test bannings, partially because the messaging to a broad audience is difficult, and banning something and then unbanning it can create a great deal of confusion. We don't argue for why a card is unbanned; we only give reasons for why cards are banned. The cards you mention are certainly some of the most commonly-discussed. Of the three, Derevi is the one most on our radar. I'll say that we don't simply ban every card which someone finds annoying or unlikeable. We want loads of potential archetypes for deckbuilders to explore, even if some of them don't resonate with our personal styles.

Not much to glean from most of this other than that they have their eye on Derevi and they don't like constantly changing their ban list. The last sentence is interesting because it somewhat contradicts other statements Sheldon has made in the past about people who want to make EDH more competitive, and even stuff he says earlier in the same article. Stax is an archetype some people may want to play, but Sheldon said earlier that it goes against the philosophy of the format since it doesn't make it fun for other people to play.

Another:

Q: Why is the phrase "(and others like them)" even on the ban list page? All it does is create dissent.

A: I disagree that all it does it create dissent. There's clearly a hard-and-fast banned list, but we'd also like for those cards to be exemplars for others that your local group might also consider not playing with.

I actually never noticed this clause, and the fact that it is there shocks and concerns me. Fortunately, nobody else I've talked to about the format knows or cares about it either, so no big deal.

We'll end with a good one:

Q: How do you feel about the slowly increasing number of players who think that WotC should take over the format?

A: I feel like summarily rejecting the notion, since you've invented a fact. I don't deny that some people might think it; I just hear it less these days than in the past.

Wow. Why even do a Q&A if you're going to be so dismissive? Sheldon, nobody cares about you being witty while telling off someone who you perceive to be a troll. This person is asking a legitimate question about something that may have a big impact - WOTC assuming direct control of the format - and you're blowing him off.

This whole article just reminds me of his Ten Card Banlist article. If you haven't read that one, you absolutely should because it speaks volumes about his priorities for the format.

I don't have a personal opinion of this Sheldon person but the ten card banlist article you linked is a mental exercise he put forth in the case of needing to bring the banlist from 38 cards to 10. So because he has to release 28 cards back into the format, he's theorised which cards would actually be part of that 10 banlist.

I don't think it's fair to make a judgement about someone's character based on a theoretical exercise they do for fun and post for others to enjoy reading. And I did enjoy reading it, the reasoning for his 10 cards was sound:

TL:DR for the 10 cards if people are curious

Channel: Being able to do whatever you want on turn 2 because of the extra starting life is really bad.

Balance: His problem with the card is the mana cost when combined with the effect. It's simply too strong in MP EDH.

Griselbrand: Lose 7, draw 7, attack for 7, gain 7. Too strong.

Limited Resources: Stops people from playing the game single handedly. Not good.

Then he explains that bringing back a banned as commander list would solve some of the problems associated with Rofellos, braids and Erayo. That way they could be part of your 99 again. Though he notes he's kinda iffy about rofellos since green doesn't need more help with explosive mana.

Karakas: It interacts so poorly with the format that it must stay banned. Being able to bounce commanders instantly for example does not create a fun gaming environment.

Now at 5 banned cards out of 10.

Tolarian Academy: Should be obvious for everyone I think but the ability to repeatedly create tons of blue mana is not good so this should stay banned.

Prophet of Kruphix, Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial: They ruin games, so they stay banned.

Finally Yawgmoth's Bargain should be the 10th banned card because the ability to exchange life for cards at a 1:1 ratio is completely busted. Unlike Necropotence, you get the cards immediately.

I'm not judging his character, I'm judging his priorities for the format. The fact that he thinks Black Lotus and Tinker are okay to set free but Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix aren't shows that his priorities are utterly fucked. His rationale on what would happen if Tinker was unbanned was ridiculous too - He thought that people would tutor for Blightsteel Colossus instead of a combo piece or Memory Jar.

I definitely agree with Gates88 on this one. 7-9 are laughably weak when compared to Tinker and Black Lotus.

Read the article...

I did before I commented. I just disagree with his logic.

I meant that to be in past tense. That was meant to indicate my reaction.

I for one also agree that believing Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, and Prophet of Kruphix are more ban worthy than Tinker, Black Lotus, or even Protean Hulk or Time Vault shows that Sheldon's priorities are pretty off at least as far as those go.

It's because he values recurring effects like what those 3 cards have differently than you do. He believes that effets on cards that can keep happening over and over are more valuable than 1 shot effects like Tinker. Tinker is a combo piece. You need things for it to sac + something to go get. You also do it once and then it's over. Vs, the effects of those 3 cards can happen multiple times before they are dealt with. That's the issue I think. He's seeing it as multiple procs of the effects vs single effect.

I mean, yeah. Those cards are super nasty in certain circles. There's a Tasigur deck I like playing in my meta when I want to chill and play dumb stuff. My meta has a different ban list, so I get to use Primeval Titan to fetch up Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth one turn and Library of Alexandria and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale the next. With Volrath's Stronghold, Prophet of Kruphix, and Tasigur, the Golden Fang's ability, I get to absolutely nuts in value every turn. It just feels dirty...

Obviously these things aren't the most bonkers things you can do in EDH, but the value chain that cards with recurring abilities on the level of Primeval Titan can sometimes feel backbreaking given the right circumstances.

Just imagine that you're playing in a fairly battlecruizer-oriented group where players are pretty knowledgeable and skilled. Then yeah, I guess cards like prophet become bonkers.

Just my 2 cents.

I want it to be Prime-Time again. :(

Also, can we comment reset? My iPhone can't load this page right now.