The Game Has Changed: Help breaking modern competitive.
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 5, 2015, 1:47 p.m. by Postmortal_Pop
Forewarning, this will get wordy
I've been browsing modern competitive decks all across the Internet for a few months now and have noticed that almost all the top decks in this format have one ovoid point in common. Namely, they all revolve around one or two key cards. I know, I know, decks build around cards, totally game changing right? This got me thinking though, this is deck building 101, it's how decks are usually made. What would happen if this could be exploited?
Observation: Most decks are built around 5 or less core cards.This is fairly obvious, almost all decks have some preferred combo or a specific fatty that suss victory.
Observation: Most strategies for removing enemy win conditions are reactive , not preemptive.This means dealing with your opponents card happens mainly after that card is relevant to the game. Counter spells remove cards as they are already being played, removal spells get rid of things that have been played already.
Question: Could a deck be made that exploits this basic deck building standard and could it pose a viable threat?
Hypothesis: One could exploit this using cards s sharing the ability for preemptive removal that Memoricide brings to the table.
With some practice and testing I have put together a deck that does marginally well.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/not-your-usual-ub-control-deck/
What I need is advice from people with more experience in the competitive modern circle. I feel this doesn't move fast enough or that there may be a better arrangement for the deck in question. So far it has done an OK job in play tests, though most of it has been in causal where winning and strategy come second to general comedy. I have played it against two torment tarred decks so far and the results were well above expectations.
To those out there who made it through this crazy mess of words, are there any ideas for perfecting this? I am aware that this is a nieve theory and that it would be a huge stretch for this to work but I am mostly interested in the psychology of it. A winning deck like this has the potential to change how decks are built and even hope the game is played on a fundamental Level assuming it can work.
Memoricide just isn't that good. Slaughter Games is better, but both are just slow. If your strategy is "slow the opponent," that doesn't mean you can get away with not playing anything to win yourself. Against, say, affinity, this strategy is useless. Against Twin, Delver, etc., it's ok but not unbeatable. The strength of those decks is in the versatility. Twin, for example, often wins as just a UR tempo deck. The inclusion of the combo gives the deck a level of inevitability that essentially necessitates you win before they draw too many cards. Even without the infinite combo, they will still just tempo your ass into the ground. That's why the deck isn't full of Idyllic Tutors and such; it isn't actually built around the combo at all, it just makes victory inevitable if nothing else kills you first.
December 5, 2015 2:15 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #4
It's not that Memoricide effects aren't good -- they are; it's that you don't interact with the board by casting Memoricide, and sometimes you don't strip their hand either. Topdecking Memoricide against a Goyf that's attacking you and you need to deal with feels terrible.
The decks that you're targeting with these effects are usually resilient enough to play magic off of any card in their deck and have a decent chance of winning with those cards. Thus, answering a threat that isn't even in play/casted yet opens you up to other threats resolving, regardless of how many "key cards" you negate.
December 5, 2015 2:45 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #6
I think the two key points from that article are "4 mana is too much," and "interacting with cards they've already used doesn't help you."
I think where it falls through is that he allows for situations where your preemptively steal their threats and gut their deck with the extraction effect. Thoughtseize takes their on curve card away, usually a two or three drop that puts pressure on you, or some kind of card they will use to disrupt your own plan. Surgical Extraction prevents them from using that card against you any further. I have to agree with his point though, from heavy testing, that most of the time, the card does nothing. You could use something like Hedron Crab or Archive Trap to get large chunks of their library in the graveyard to create more targets, but then your setting yourself up to not be interacting with the board and that's a scary place to be in this format.
December 5, 2015 3:18 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
You missed the point of the article entirely. It's saying that Extraction effects are 0 for 1s unless you are playing against a deck with low threat density. They stink unless you are targeting a deck with a low concentration of very powerful spells.
You can play Extraction in a mill deck if you want. At that point, you're playing mill. :)
The issue in Modern specifically is that very few decks fold to having a specific card removed from their deck. Only relatively fringe decks like Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam and Living End come to mind. Notice how the deck names are all card names.
December 5, 2015 3:39 p.m.
You're basically saying you want to build a modern version of MUD. If you aren't aware, MUD is a legacy deck full of artifacts that lock out your opponents spells and make them more expensive before they even have a chance to cast em. And then you smack em with a 5/3 golem or a 7/10 titan.
This is probably possible, but it's not gonna be mono artifact. I'd start with 4 Spirit Guides, 4 Blood Moons, and 4 Chalice of the Voids in the main board, and go from there.
December 5, 2015 4:06 p.m. Edited.
I took a crack at it. also, i demolished your budget. i went up to around 850 dollars. so yeah. heres my deck. Dude, Where Did you Deck Go
December 5, 2015 5:39 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #10
Having had time to fully read the article, I still stand on the idea for a few reasons. Firstly, Extirpate and Surgical Extraction ARE useless on their own, even in this build. The reason I include them is for access Extirpate + Rune Snag spares me the trouble of the first play and allows me to take my sweet time searching their library and hand to identify Main threats (the main wincons that decks normally get named after) and secondary threats (way the opponent may still pull through.) After that first Extirpate the rest just serve as a metaphorical also on the wrist for casting a burn or bounce spell.
Secondly, his position is that you will have Extraction in your deck, not that Extraction is your deck. Only removing 4 different cards isn't a huge effect, but this deck removes much more than that as it is right now.
However, he does hold a great point that the 4 mana is too high. With the perfect hand this deck runs at an almost evil pace but anything less than perfect isn't a challange to keep up with. That's exactly why I came here for advice on it.
December 6, 2015 9:53 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
You won't have to "take your sweet time searching their library and hand to identify main threats" if you're familiar with the format. Just figure out what's going on in the format and tailor a control deck to have the proper set of answers to those threats. No need for stupid cards.
December 6, 2015 9:59 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #13
car I took a look at your version and there are a few things I like. My original view of Remand was that it is "useless, they're just going to play it again later" but sing it with Shimian Specter gives me a reason to rethink that. Also Ensnaring Bridge would do wonders in here as I rarely have more than 3 cards in my hand. Glimpse the Unthinkable might just make Haunting Echoes worth while but I still don't like echoes and I really don't want to be just another mill deck so I may side board it in. It doesn't have the same psychological effect that I'm going for but it's definitely worthy of praise.
December 6, 2015 10:10 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #14
GlistenerAgent taking my time isn't too identify main that's, that can be done by simply asking then what they're playing. That first Extirpate is to assess what they have to fall back on once I've dealt with those main threats. Those fall back options vary from player to player and tend to be plays they have used for a long time that aren't effective enough to run alone. Some boros fall back on token pump while others retreat into burn. No amount of format tailoring can predict what every deck turns into without is main cards. My answer to this may very well be stupid, but until I've seen adequate, quantifiable proof that Extraction only decks are as limited as the cards themselves I still hold that it can be effective. Presently I've yet to find any proof that it has been tried before and it wouldn't be very scientific of me to just assumed that means it fails.
December 6, 2015 10:30 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
Yes, because your opponent will tell you what they're playing.
Once again, knowing what the popular decks are in the format and how they are built lets you know what they have to fall back on. You don't need to know what specific tech people have, you just need to know the general gameplans (and possibly specific cards, but rarely) that you need to beat. No Extraction effects necessary.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Boros". There aren't just random Boros decks in Modern. There are burn decks, and they don't use tokens.
"No amount of format tailoring can predict what every deck turns into without its main cards"
This is false. If you know what's going on, you can predict what they will turn to. Most decks use a hybrid plan anyway, and Extracting one card does very little.
Here's the thing: Decks in Modern don't just fold to one card, or one disruption to their main plan. They are resilient, and have a backup plan that will crush you unless you have your own powerful and proactive cards. A deck with 9 Extraction effects or whatever can't stop a relentless assault of powerful spells and interaction.
December 6, 2015 11:02 a.m.
It depends on who you are playing with. The more competitive the environment, the more predictable it will be.
I kind of liked your idea a little bit so I made something that was a hybrid of this idea and an infect strategy. It probably isn't competitive because it's not in any top 8s, therefore someone better than me probably already tried this and judged it sub-optimal. Nonetheless, just for fun I tried something.
In general, I think it is maybe a good idea to cross something like this with a simple strategy to win. (I also wondered what would happen if you pulled off Surgical Extraction on a stick - against the right deck it could be a twisted form of effectively milling and land flooding someone).
December 6, 2015 11:38 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #17
guessling actually when I ran this against a friend's loosen rb burn and removal I left him with literally only land and a single 1 of that he had to fill a slot. As wonderful as that was it was boring when I was left plucking him for 2 a turn with my Specter. What I need is a way to add some more hurt without removing all of my Extraction options. How well did your deck run on this? Do you have a deck list or maybe a win/loss ratio? It would really help
December 6, 2015 12:37 p.m.
I just made the deck - haven't tested it out much yet - I'll post it on my profile because it stinks to make links on my mobile.
This is a first iteration, mind you. It doesn't even have a sideboard yet - just a sketch, really.
Here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-12-15-spam/
December 6, 2015 1:20 p.m. Edited.
Postmortal_Pop says... #19
GlistenerAgent you've, again, narrowly avoided my statement. I do not believe there is a single deck in the world that will fold to one Extraction. That is why Extraction is deemed limited. Further more, even in modern, a format dominated by duplicates of the same dozen decks, there are still hundreds of cards to fill the plan b slot. If that weren't true then every single ur tempo and Naya zoo would consist of the same exact cards and the idea of a splashed color would be considered an ultimate taboo. Every player falls back on cards they prefer when they have a shot to fill and not all of them are the same. The most efficient way to know what your opponent will move to next is to see it first hand by reading all of Their cards. Again, this concept isn't some one and done play, by strategically extracting cards that pose the greatest threat with every play, your opponent is left to recalculate that they can do to win any time they fail to counter a spell out any time they fail to block.
Does this deck need more than just Extraction? Yes. Does a better option exist already? Yes, Several dozen in fact. Do any of them carry the unexpected strategy or mental strain that this concept strives to create? Hardly, every other option has already been well played and documented by up to thousands of other players.
I did not create this thread to be informed that there are better strategies, I created it to seek help from more experienced players on a so far barely charted territory.
Also, the Boros point was aimed for the above link starting that removing a single card from that deck does nothing. That is true, but removing several cards reduces it to a cluttered burn deck and that is definably not nothing.
Also as a less important point, I don't know about your play groups but every player I've met has the common courtesy to say "bg infect" or "ub control" when you ask them what they're playing. We're not heathens...
December 6, 2015 1:30 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #20
In a competitive setting, your opponent won't tell you what they're playing. If this is for more casual play, then it's obviously different.
Even if people rely on slightly different flex slots in their decks, these cards are all very similar. The cards fill similar roles, and are thus answered by similar cards. There's no need to find out what they have because you should already know (pretty accurately) what sorts of threats you need to answer.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from pursuing this idea, I'm simply explaining that it's not going to be particularly successful. At least, I don't think it will be.
December 6, 2015 3:29 p.m.
Why not just play Lantern Control if this is what your looking to do? Play th old soft lock and use Surgicals and Inquisition to remove any relevand interaction your opponent has? The deck is built and tweeked to work the way you want to play, but all the bad cards that Lantern plays have synnergies.
December 7, 2015 4:27 a.m.
I really like this idea, but don't know much about modern. Maybe run a bunch 1-4 cmc stuff like Duress and Surgical Extraction like your doing or maybe Counterspell (i don't know if thats modern legal) to stop your opponents from doing something you don't like. Thats my thoughts, i hope this goes somewhere! i really like the idea.
December 7, 2015 1:16 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #23
Ledian counterspell would be great but it's laat printing was 7th edition so it isn't allowed in modern. As for duress, I'm starting to consider it, I could use more ways to modify what my opponent plays.
Really what I need is some more early game control, so far this deck runs quite smoothly against competitive decks if I can stall them to turn 3.
December 7, 2015 1:40 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #24
As a competitive modern player I am always looking for some quarky new way to break the format. I think this idea is a fun one, and one that has some potential, but needs to be fleshed out properly. There is a subset of "extraction" effects that aren't really extraction effects. Chalice of the Void was already mentioned, but then there is Meddling Mage, Nevermore, and Runed Halo. I'm sure there are more but those are just the ones that come to mind immediately. I feel that a more competitive version of this deck would be the enchantment Prison deck. Maybe you disagree but I would consider looking at that deck and the cards I mentioned and try some sort of hybrid.
December 7, 2015 2:19 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #25
awesomeragle all the of those would be extremely useful in this deck as they would stall out anything I can't extract immediately. The hardest part would be adding in the white to play them. Meddling Mage wouldn't be too hard to do with just one white but Nevermore and Runed Halo might be a challenge without changing the land base. Got any suggestions on WUB lands that won't break the bank?
December 7, 2015 2:52 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #26
Well... You could look at my ad nauseum mana base. You don't need black mana till late so if you skew the mana base slightly away from black and slightly toward white to reliably get WW on turn 2 or 3 I think it could work. The major change I would immediately do is add 4 lands, and replace the gemstone mines with lands that won't commit seppuku with repeated tapping. Probably worth taking out the tapped lands as well. Botom line is creating a three color mana base without spending money is difficult, but this is one of the cheaper ones I could offer.
December 7, 2015 5:54 p.m.
awesomeragle & Postmortal_Pop, you might be interested in a UW prison deck I built a few years back. Not up-to-date or very good, but it's based around Meddling Mage and stuff.
December 7, 2015 6:16 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #28
Interesting list Jay. I think we are going for a more all in version of it though. I think I came up with a reasonable list. It is not great, but passable. The numbers are probably way off in every direction. Additionally I did include Memoricide in my list although I do believe it to be very clunky and probably one of the first cards to get cut, but for the sake of this thread I put it in. I didn't realize I only had four copies of one blue card while I was building the mana base XD but this mana base is probably okay anyway since the final list will likely include some number of Remands since I think that to be the best counterspell for a deck like this.
December 7, 2015 6:36 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #29
awesomeragle It gives me a few ideas of where to go, though in yours I would say you should drop memoricide. One of the main points against Extraction is that removing only a few cards doesn't have a lot of effect and is next to useless if you don't know what they have before they play it. The only reason it works in my deck at all is because my desk extracts in mass.
December 8, 2015 2:23 a.m.
Sadistic Sacrament my friend runs this in one of his decks, and let me tell you it is crippling.
December 8, 2015 12:32 p.m.
Paraphrasing, "I want to stop my opponent from enacting ANY gameplan before he has a chance, and defeat him at my leisure once he's bowed and broken."
Dude, it's been done. Google 8Rack, thank me later.
December 9, 2015 12:34 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #32
Twanicus While I usually despise posts ending with "you can thank me later," your tip was actually quite informative. Everything I've read so far validates my belief that proactive removal can be a valid threat outside the realm of casual. What I'm hoping to achieve would be the next step up the latter. Do you have any suggestions for changes that sill allows for the mass amounts of Extraction?
December 9, 2015 7:06 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #33
Twanicus Also, (notably later than the previous statement) thank you for the tip.
December 9, 2015 7:10 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #34
Ledian, Sadistic Sacrament could actually be useful in this if I could ever get enough mana to play the kicker xD
Aside from that my original reason for not running it was that any 3 cards doesn't have as much of an effect as all of 1 card can have. However, I think I may give it a shot, any idea of what to swap for it?
December 9, 2015 7:18 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop its still 3 cards that you can exile, which in a twin deck is able to significantly reduce their chances of drawing a twin. Or if a person is running things as a 2 of ,which i usually do, you can take out their biggest threats.
December 9, 2015 1:09 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #36
Jojja I realized I totally over looked your post and with some research I've decided that it's exactly what this needs to get going. With a good hand I could lock them down early and use the mill cards as targets for Extirpate + Surgical Extraction then fall back on Memoricide to deal with threats when I can't risk allowing them to make it to top deck. With enough knowledge of the Meta I should be able to predict what cards could be used to break out and extract those before I ever need to mill them
guessling says... #2
I am terrified of Chalice of the Void and am so happy it doesn't show up much. I think the reason is that all else being equal, by t4, most 2 drops have been around already - possibly long enough to finish you off - depending on the specific situation.
December 5, 2015 2:07 p.m.