Turn 1 Lotus Field?
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on June 21, 2019, 7:24 p.m. by bryanedds
Unlike Lotus Vale , Lotus Field does not say that it must be sacrificed if you don't sacrifice the two lands when it enters the battlefield. Does that mean you can play it on turn one with no drawback (other than it coming into play tapped)?
Note it says when it enters...if you don’t have two additional lands to sac, it’s going to sacrifice to itself. You’ll need Blood Sun or a stifle effect to negate that trigger.
June 21, 2019 8:12 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #4
You will have to sacrifice it if you don't have two other lands. The sacrifice takes effect when it enters the battlefield so when the sacrifice would resolve Lotus Field is a valid target for the sac.
That is how people sacrifice Fleshbag Marauder to it's own ETB.
June 21, 2019 9 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #5
More closely related would be the Ravnica bounce lands, like Boros Garrison - if you don't have a different land to bounce (or in this case, sacrifice), you must bounce/sac the land that just entered.
June 21, 2019 11:13 p.m.
Ah, the wording seemed ambiguous to me. Because it happens when it enters the battlefield, it seems you should be able to reorder the simultaneous events on the stack. Of course, I'm sure a judge has already ruled against this, but compared to other rulings that allow reordering of simultaneous events, it seems arbitrary to me.
June 22, 2019 8:03 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
It entering is not simultaneous with the trigger. It has to be on the battlefield when the trigger resolves because it doesn't even trigger until it has entered. Then the ability has to go on the stack and resolve.
I'd be interested in knowing what rules allow reordering of events. I know of ordering multiple triggers as you would like if you have more than one to go on the stack at once, I know of choosing the order that replacement effects apply, I know of nothing that allows reordering of events. They either happen simultaneously as with Genesis Wave or in a specified order as with Hypergenesis .
June 22, 2019 9:34 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #8
Gidgetimer, I think by reordering events he meant you could stack the triggers so you wouldn’t have to sac it. I’ve been playing a long time and I don’t think there’s anything (maybe UN sets?) that allow you to change events order. But you were correct that it enters and has to sac itself.
June 22, 2019 11:48 a.m.
From a logic perspective, the naming is wrong for 'enter the battlefield'. It should technically be 'after entering the battlefield', otherwise you won't be able to avoid the simultaneity that, were not for the inaccurate language, could be reordered on the stack.
But now I'm just kvetching about misleading language embedded in the rules themselves. The judged have ruled that 'enter the battlefield' really means 'right after entering the battlefield', so there's no room for argument with the current interpretation.
Cheers!
June 22, 2019 12:55 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #10
There’s nothing wrong with the wording. It says. “When it enters the battlefield” therefore it must be ON THE BATTLEFIELD for the ability to trigger. After it enters, THEN the ability triggers. You cannot stack these abilities as you would like.
Hydroid Krasis is different. When you cast Hydroid Krasis, then his abilities go on the stack. I’m not sure if you can choose how those abilities resolve though. I’m pretty sure you have to gain the life and draw the cards before he enters the battlefield.
Words have meanings, and those meanings are important. It says “WHEN it ENTERS” therefore it must have already entered the field.
June 22, 2019 1:14 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #11
When you cast Snapcaster Mage , you don’t choose the targets until AFTER he resolves, AFTER he “enters the battlefield”. Your opponent doesn’t get to say “okay what do you Target? Oh I don’t like that now I’ll counter it.” There is a logical progression.
June 22, 2019 1:16 p.m. Edited.
Just to quibble - it's impossible for thing A to simultaneously enter thing B if thing A is already in thing B. It's basic logic.
But anyways, we really are quibbling, so I'll end this thread.
June 22, 2019 1:58 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
Daveslab2022, I realized what they were driving at and was trying to use rhetoric to get OP to realize that ordering of triggers is not ordering of events. Nothing, not even in UN sets, allows you to change the order that events happened in. A single effect causing a mass zone change is the only way that anything ever happens simultaneously, and that has no ordering at all to be rearranged. Game events always have a well defined order that they happen in. Triggers and Replacement effects are the only things that get ordered.
There is nothing misleading about triggered abilities. Triggered abilities wait until their trigger condition has been matched to do anything. Therefore Lotus Field is on the battlefield when its ability triggers. Since it can't enter the battlefield to trigger the ability before it is on the battlefield due to it entering the battlefield. Replacement effects are what modifies an event as it is happening. The oracle text of Lotus Vale shows that its ability is a replacement effect. "If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don’t, put it into its owner’s graveyard."
To answer the Hydroid Krasis point that got brought up earlier, the life gain and draw always happen before Hydroid Krasis resolves. Once again it is because triggers don't happen until their trigger event has happened. The first step of casting a spell is to put it on the stack. You can't have cast the spell to trigger the ability before you put the spell on the stack to cast it. The on-cast trigger goes on the stack above the spell and resolves first. Same scenario with Rhystic Study . The study trigger always resolves first and you can use a Counterspell drawn from them not paying the to counter their spell.
June 22, 2019 2 p.m.
xander11 they updated decimate a few years back you no longer need all the targets. But if there is a target you have to pick it
June 22, 2019 3:07 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
The update wasn't that you no longer need all the targets, it was that all the targets no longer had to be different. To use their example, it used to be that if Tree of Tales was the only artifact out you had to choose another land. Now you can choose it for both artifact and for land.
June 22, 2019 3:41 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #16
bryanedds You are correct that it is basic logic. But it’s basic logic you aren’t seeming to be grasping. No offense.
Let me explain in Layman’s terms. I’m delivering a pizza. Lotus Field is the pizza. The family eating the pizza is the ETB effect, requiring you to sacrifice multiple lands.
Does it make sense for the family to be eating the pizza (sacrificing the lands) BEFORE I deliver it (Lotus Field entering the battlefield)?
No, it does not make sense. The pizza must be at its destination before the family can eat it.
June 22, 2019 3:41 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #17
You are correct that thing A can not enter thing B if they are already together. But that doesn’t even make sense in the context of this conversation. Two things are not happening at the same time. Lotus Field enters the battlefield. That’s one entire thing. THEN, it’s ability activates, which is an entirely separate event. They do not happen at the same time. Their is a linear progression to these events.
June 22, 2019 3:46 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #18
Also worth noting that playing a land does not use the stack and cannot be responded to or otherwise interacted with.
June 22, 2019 10:03 p.m.
I might be reading this wrong, but if I understand it correctly, if I start the game with a Gemstone Caverns turn 0, or exile a Simian Spirit Guide for , or crack a Lotus Petal for one mana to cast Amulet of Vigor , and then play Lotus Field as my land for turn, would I be able to tap the Lotus Field for mana before I sacrifice it to it's ETB? If so that's a janky turn 1 Black Lotus in Modern/Legacy.
June 23, 2019 5:25 a.m.
LordOfMishap says... #21
You will have to sacrifice it to itself if you don't have the 2 additional lands, however, I'm wondering if you can still get the mana out of it since it says "when" instead of "as"...
July 29, 2019 9:21 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #23
With an Amulet of Vigor and correct trigger order you can get the mana. Without a way to untap there is no way to get the mana.
xander11 says... #2
You do need to sacrifice the two lands since it's an etb trigger without a "may" clause. It's like how you can't cast Decimate unless you have a legal target for each type. I could be wrong but I think they just updated rules since Lotus Vale came out
June 21, 2019 7:50 p.m.