Nivmagus Elemental and the Stack
General forum
Posted on Oct. 18, 2012, 2:30 a.m. by DeletedNow4ever
OK trying to see if this is how a certain turn of events would play out with Nivmagus Elemental 's ability.
Player 1 has Nivmagus Elemental in play and casts Searing Spear . Player 2 casts a Negate to counter the Searing Spear . Player 1 exiles the Searing Spear while it's on the stack with Nivmagus Elemental s and before both spells have resolved. Nivmagus Elemental gets 2 +1+1 counters, and the Negate fizzles.
Is this a legal play?? I think it is because it all happens on the stack and since Nivmagus Elemental s ability exiles the spell from the stack I think this works. If anyone has any info on this please let me know. Thanks
DeletedNow4ever says... #3
Yea that's exactly how I thought it played out. Nivmagus Elemental s ability is on the top of the stack so it resolves first, exiling the Searing Spear and fizzling the Negate . Just wanted to be 100% sure.
Was thinking about adding Nivmagus Elemental to my deck:ravnicardw deck. Seems fun to bait counters or exile unusable card:Nightbird's Clutches when the opponent has an open board. Thanks for reaffirming my understanding of the ruling!
October 18, 2012 2:42 a.m.
Nivmagus Elemental Is a horrible card and shouldn't be played in any deck.
Though the move is Legal.
October 18, 2012 4:34 a.m.
UniTheDino says... #6
Nivmagus Elemental isn't strictly horrible. You get value off of any countered card, and may force your opponent to not try and counter (if the Elemental is on board).
That being said, Nivmagus Elemental is situational at best.
October 18, 2012 12:10 p.m.
It's not... he just doesn't ever want to play against it, so he's trying convince the world it's bad. :)
October 18, 2012 12:11 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #8
Its horrible that I only have 2 copies of it right now. But other than that I can't really think of a good reason. I mean its gotta be one of the easiest cards to work with right now. I mean look at some of the cards that rely on just the casting of spells and not necessarily their resolution:
Burning Vengeance and its blue counterpart
If anything its just waiting to be broken. I played an Izzet deck last week where I had one of these in the deck. Had two 1 mana cost spells. Proceeded to cast him first turn then cast those turn 2 exiled them both and swung for 5. My opponent scooped a turn or two later.
October 18, 2012 12:13 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #9
Not to mention that its just absurd in a storm deck or a Hive Mind deck. I cast the Pact of Negation , exile my copy of it and allow all of my opponent's to deal with the repercussions.
October 18, 2012 12:16 p.m.
It also gives additional power to spells that are situational.
A Caravan Vigil , or a Farseek can be extremely useful at the beginning of a game, but useless when you have more than enough mana in play. With Nivmagus Elemental in play, it turns into 2 +1/+1 counters.
Combo it with Epic Experiment , and you're getting any 'useless spells' (for example, other x casting cost spells, or counter spells ), turned into +1/+1 counters.
To top it off, it can be put in a deck with EITHER blue, OR red... it needs not be in a strictly blue/red deck. At very least, it's a good sideboard card in any deck to sub-in while playing agains a Blue control deck.
October 18, 2012 12:24 p.m.
It's actually a really good card in a metagame where countermagic is prevalent. I have a feeling people will be trying to "break" it at local FNM's for the next two years. I suspect most or all of them will fail because intentionally boarding bad spells to exile on purpose isn't all that broken. Still...seems pretty usable with Snipey.
It is important to note you can not do the following:Cast a spell you think may be vaguely threatening, like Annihilating Fire on a Loxodon Smiter or Thought Scour on turn 2.Pass priority to a blue player you hope will counter your spell.He/she passes priority backYou try to exile your original spell to the Nivmagus Elemental .
Because you both passed priority, the stack will begin to resolve. You can't try to bait a counter with a spell you intended to exile all along. So you'd better have the Electrickery ready for that Smiter just in case your spell resolves.
October 18, 2012 2:43 p.m.
does the stack start to resolve as soon as priority is passed? Are you sure? I don't personally know.
Becasue if you have time to activate the ability it would go on the stack before the spell and then resolve in that order.
October 18, 2012 2:49 p.m.
He's trash unless you don't mind removing an instant/sorcery card from your hand and its associated mana-cost to give this 2 +1/+1 counters. Which is trash, because a 3/4 on turn 2 that has no evasion while creating you a stupid amount of card disadvantage is bad.
October 18, 2012 2:57 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #14
SGB517 the way I understand priority seems to be contradictory to what you're saying. Here's what I mean:
If player 1 casts a spell player 2 has the opportunity to do something about the spell while it's on the stack. So when I cast a burn spell I ask if it's good and they say either yes or no. I don't get to cast multiple spells and then ask player 2 to deal with all of them at once. If this is correct and I understand priority and the stack, I can't cast a spell and exile it with Nivmagus Elemental 's ability before the other person has a chance to respond. So if they don't counter the spell you can still exile it while it's on the stack.
Anyway, you wouldn't want to try and break it with useless spells, the way you break this card is by making the opponent make a decision. Do they want their creature to die from a burn spell or do they want a creature on the other side of the board to get 2 +1+1 counters? Do they want their creature to stick and not be countered, or does the creature hitting the board as it is help them but having Nivmagus Elemental getting beefier defeats that purpose? It's card where you are ok with either result when you are controling Nivmagus Elemental and therefore you've made your spells double-edged swords.
October 18, 2012 3:03 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #15
Skythe what you said in that comment contadicts one of the best creatures ever made in MTG. You're trying to tell me Tarmogoyf is a bad card? Sometimes it's not even a 3/4 on turn 2.
October 18, 2012 3:06 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #16
Also Skythe you're trying to tell me that playing a creature that gives me something if one of my spells gets countered is worse then just letting the card get countered? My card gets use whether it's countered or not and that to me seems like a good use of cards. If I were to use the card the way you are describing it then it would not only be a trash card, but I would be a trash player. You don't cast spells just to exile them with him, you cast spells that benefit you at the current state of the game. If the spell resolves then awesome, your game plan is working...if it doesn't, then you don't just lose the card, you end up with 2 more P/T on the board.
October 18, 2012 3:14 p.m.
Which is terrible, because you're using a one drop that is HIGHLY situational, and could easily be replaced with something better, in both blue and Red.There just isn't enough counters being played in standard to warrant a card mean to hose counters. Even in formats where counters are relevent, there are better cards to play.
Tarmogoyf . Really? Goyf doesn't make you lose card advantage, whereas Nivmagus does. Regardless if the spell would fizzle or not, it's just not a good card. Build a deck around it though, see if I care. I just wouldn't plan on placing in any top 8s if I were you.
October 18, 2012 3:24 p.m.
Skythe if Wizards printed a creature that said, "Whenever an instant or sorcery spell you control gets countered, (Creature Name) gets 2 +1/+1 counters." you would say it is a terrible card? That is basically what Nivmagus Elemental says with the added bonus of giving value to late game ramp spells, first game useless removal (Doom Blade vs a deck with only black creatures, etc), and other such cards that instead of being dead draws become 2 useful +1/+1 counters on your creature.
October 18, 2012 3:32 p.m.
cartwheelnurd says... #19
Not onl tarmogoyf, lotleth troll is not a great card for the same reasons, but it costs more mana, gets worse bonuses, and still can end games!
October 18, 2012 3:34 p.m.
Like I said, Go ahead and build around it, Which is horrible in and of itself, and You'll see my point. Card has no Evasion, Requires spending cards that could potentially be useful, and getting no effect out of them, as well as having no real use aside from making shitty cards even worse.
Who the hell plays Caravan Vigil anyway?
October 18, 2012 3:46 p.m.
Lotleth Troll At least has some form of evasion,and a cheap regen, Nivmagus has neither. I would sit and laugh my ass off while you exile spells to him, and i just Unsummon or Selesnya Charm him.
October 18, 2012 3:49 p.m.
Also remember, Nivmagus Elemental can exile spells that you own that have been copied. For example, If you use Chandra, the Firebrand 's -2, cast Grapeshot with a storm count of 5, you will then have 12 spells you can then exile with Nivmagus Elemental . Granted, If you had that, you should be winning without the exiling (if you haven't already). But just to give an example.
October 18, 2012 3:50 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #23
Here is the 5th place deck from the last SCG Standard Open:
MAIN DECK2 Snapcaster MageCreatures [2]4 Jace, Architect of Thought1 Jace, Memory Adept2 Tamiyo, the Moon SagePlaneswalkers [7]4 Azorius Charm3 Azorius Keyrune4 Detention Sphere3 Entreat the Angels1 Sphinx's Revelation1 Supreme Verdict2 Syncopate4 Terminus4 Think TwiceSpells [26]2 Azorius Guildgate3 Ghost Quarter4 Glacial Fortress4 Hallowed Fountain5 Island7 PlainsLands [25]SIDEBOARD2 Dissipate1 Erase4 Geist of Saint Traft3 Negate1 Oblivion Ring1 Sphinx's Revelation1 Sundering Growth1 Supreme Verdict1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
He has 2 counters mainboard and 5 in the sideboard. He is also running 2xSnapcaster Mage mainboard which gives him 4 total mainboard if he so chooses. A lot of Delver deck were running only 2 mainboard Mana Leak s in the last iteration of standard and they were countering all sorts of stuff. He's a 1/2 body that doesn't trade with mana dorks, does trade with Gravecrawler , Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Strangleroot Geist , Rakdos Shred-Freak , Gore-House Chainwalker , Lotleth Troll , and can block/trade with card:Geralf's Messenger, Geist of Saint Traft , Lotleth Troll (pumped), Thragtusk (can kill and stay on the board with two pumps against Thragtusk ) all with 1 pump.
Name another card that can do that...
October 18, 2012 3:50 p.m.
cartwheelnurd says... #24
both can also happen to the $10 troll. the nivmagus elemental is a quality card which can pull its own weight and can get very big. He can also combo with cards such as dual casting. Having any spell be an instant speed uncounterable titanic growth is pretty darn good.
October 18, 2012 3:52 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #25
I would be the one laughing while you "wasted" cards on a "shitty" card and had nothing in your hand left to handle my Hellrider that just got in for 14 damage in one turn. You would feel foolish because you used your "good" cards on my shitty 1 drop and still lost. Then game two when you let him sit there and he got big because you were worried about my other cards he crashed in you took damage and then got into range of burn and tried to counter it...oh wait...he just keeps getting bigger. Anyone who knows how to trully play magic would only bait your card out so you were forced to deal with their 1 drop while they setup a game winning play with other cards. I'd love to play in your meta...sounds easy.
October 18, 2012 3:55 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #26
You still don't understand that playing him the right way is NOT EXILING EVERY SPELL YOU USE TO HIM. You only exile a spell that has been countered or is useless at the stage of the game you are in at the current time. I'm happy using my burn to remove your creature and smack in with mine...but if you counter it then I lost my card and board advantage...why not give my side of the board 2 more P/T?
Every creature minus the ones with hexproof can be unsummoned...are you saying every creature in standard that doesn't have hexproof is bad because they can be unsummoned?
October 18, 2012 3:59 p.m.
cartwheelnurd says... #27
Nivmagus elemental is actually good. Fine here it is. You dared me, I delivered. In 10 minutes, too.
October 18, 2012 4:03 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #28
To clear up the confusion about Priority, this is how it works:
- At the beginning of each step and phase except for Untap and Cleanup, the active player gets priority
- After a spell or ability has been put onto the stack, the player who put it there gets priority
- After a spell or ability resolves, the active player gets priority
- When a player passes, the next player in turn order gets priority, unless that action means all players have passed in succession
- If all players pass priority in succession, the topmost object on the stack resolves, unless the stack is empty, in which case the game moves on to the next step or phase
So let's say you control Nivmagus Elemental . After you cast a spell and put it onto the stack, you get priority again, so you can choose to activate the Elemental's ability at this time. If you decide to do nothing and pass, then your opponent gets priority. If he has a response, then great. You'll get another chance to activate the Elemental before his response resolves when priority comes back to you. However, if he chooses to pass instead of responding, you're screwed out of activating the Elemental. Both players have passed in succession, so the spell you played will start resolving.
October 18, 2012 4:31 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #29
I would agree, along with everyone else here, that nivmagus elemental would be awful if it was only for the turn that it gets the boost, but since it is in fact counters, it has incredible untapped potential. Yes being able to exile a spell before it is countered is great, but one of these guys in a storm deck that runs Fling is even better. Along with the Hive Mind deck in legacy that forces your opponent to cast pacts meanwhile you can exile your pact with nivmagus so that in the chance that they can pay the costs of the pact and the game continues, you're still in the driver's seat with a larger nivmagus. And a turn 2 3/4 or 5/6 is insane. Delver is only a 3/2 by turn 2 (maybe) and its only evasion is flying.
I will give you that it does reduce your card advantage, but if you're running izzet (or at the very least blue) then card advantage really shouldn't be a problem for you. If it is, then there is something far more wrong with your deck than nivmagus. Is it the best card in the set? Certainly not and I don't think anyone is really contending that. Is it a good card? Absolutely. It has a variety of uses and can see play in different formats.
October 18, 2012 5:03 p.m.
I might've explained it wrong but you definitely have to let the spell resolve if your opponent doesn't counter it and you didn't announce it was meant for Exile all along. I'll try to find something showing this.
October 18, 2012 5:22 p.m.
Oh. Rhad Got it.
Here's the rule numbers and stuff.
116.3b. The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c. If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d. If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player's mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
116.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends.
October 18, 2012 5:24 p.m.
UniTheDino says... #32
@Skythe: I don't think anyone is saying that they want to build a deck around Nivmagus Elemental , just that the card is not as terrible as you are saying it is. It is situational at best and people understand that, but it doesn't make the card horrible. The Elemental is not a card that any deck plays in their 60, but could have a spot or two in the sideboard.
October 18, 2012 7:56 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #33
Pfft, someone please destroy Skythe with a Nivmagus Elemental so we may hear him further bitch about this card but in the opposite direction. Instead of being shitty, it's too good for play and should be banned :D
I find this card hilariously good. It is troll material :)
October 18, 2012 8:19 p.m.
cartwheelnurd says... #34
Its difficult to play against, but if you know how to beat it, it's a lot easier to play against. A noob would watch it grow to epic proportions then goble them up whole.
October 18, 2012 8:23 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #35
lol that is kind of funny cartwheelnurd. It can be easily taken care of just like any creature. Unless a creature had Hexproof, Indestructible, Unblockable, and other shenanigans, it can be easily handled.
If a deck is made the right way (Delver decks), then it can keep such things from happening to the point where you can't easily take care of the creature.
October 18, 2012 8:26 p.m.
I don't think this is actually legal. Nivmagus elemental's ability is bizarre and I haven't seen a good ruling on this yet. Searing Spear goes on the stack. Then, negate goes down, and so does Nivmagus's ability. In this case, what you're saying would be legal. If Nivmagus's ability actually worked this way, then you would almost never be able to use his ability.
Let's say you cast searing spear with the intention of exiling it. Your opponent then plays nothing. You've both passed priority, which means that searing spear would resolve and would no longer be valid as food for Nivmagus elemental.
All in all, the only conclusion that I can come to is that Nivmagus is broken and needs to use the stack in a non-standard way to work properly.
August 23, 2013 7:06 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #37
After you finish casting Searing Spear and put it onto the stack, you get priority again. This is your chance to activate Nivmagus Elemental . There are more details about priority in my earlier post, just a little further up on this page.
Virlym says... #2
It is legal. When Player 2 casts Negate , priority will have to be given to Player 1 before Negate starts resolving. When Player 1 receives it, Player 1 can then activate Nivmagus Elemental 's ability and exile their Searing Spear . Now Nivmagus Elemental 's ability is on the stack above Negate , and Searing Spear is exiled.
If the stack starts resolving now, Nivmagus Elemental will get its 2 +1/+1 counters, then Negate will be countered because its target is no longer a legal target, and Searing Spear is exiled so it won't resolve.
October 18, 2012 2:36 a.m.