Prophet of Kruphix - $3, Courser of Kruphix - $20 WHAT?
Economics forum
Posted on June 18, 2014, 4:40 p.m. by phaze08
Ok know how great Courser is, but why is prophet so cheap in comparison? Prophet is super great for control strategies who can now tap out each turn without fear and also any aggro deck. It offers lots of combats tricks with flash and again, tons of mana.
Why does Prophet of Kruphix not see much play? And why is it so cheap?
vampirelazarus says... #3
Courser also lets you basically have another card in hand.
June 18, 2014 4:46 p.m.
Kage-no-Raito says... #4
Personally I would play it if it was Mono-green and would run it in like G/R monsters. Since it's Simic, I wouldn't since Simic doesn't have that many good creatures to take advantage of the flash and mana. Also Prophet is a 5-drop whereas Courser is a 3-drop.
June 18, 2014 4:46 p.m.
Kage-no-Raito says... #5
vampirelazarus beat me to it. But basically Courser compared to Prophet, Courser gives a lot more (extra card, extra land, life, better body, etc...).
June 18, 2014 4:48 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #6
Prophet really only sees play in EDH as far as I know
June 18, 2014 4:50 p.m.
One is highly playable, the other is fringe playable.
/discussion
June 18, 2014 4:50 p.m.
Prophet fits into Bant and BUG strategies just fine. And RUG decks. Personally it's one of my favorite cards. Especially if your running Kruphix, God of Horizons . I'm not saying anything bad about courser because I freaking love the card and use it all the time. I do think it's overpriced though and I don't understand why the prophet is so cheap. Yeah he's expensive but it doesn't matter cuz all your land untaps on your opponent's untap phase so you can just cast whatever else you normally would have cast instead of prophet.
June 18, 2014 4:51 p.m.
The thing is that Courser goes into any Green deck right now - and I mean any Green deck.
Prophet only goes into Bant Midrange maaayyybe, though everything else for 5 is just better. RUG and BUG aren't tier-1 (barely tier-2), so they don't really affect its price.
If nothing else, Prophet's only $3 because it's an EDH staple. If EDH didn't exist, it would be 50 cents.
June 18, 2014 4:53 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #10
Don't get me wrong, he's cool, but zandl is right. Ones very good, but only in fringe decks, while the other is everywhere, for life, card advantage, and efficiency.
June 18, 2014 4:54 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #11
Oh don't get me wrong, I love prophet. But it dies to a lot of things vs aggro, it's fine against midrange, and against control he really doesn't do anything. By itself, it's a good card, and maybe in another standard enviroment it'd be played. But what is Kruphix + prophet gonna ramp into? Genesis Wave? Only 2 good X spells in standard imo right now are sphinx's rev and rakdos's return. And what midrangy creatures is prophet gonna flash? Master of waves for 2? Blue doesn't have much, I guess end step aetherling but eh, there are better ways to do that, and I'm not a fan of green right now.
June 18, 2014 4:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Nobody wants to pay 5 mana and bank on the creature surviving long enough to give you an extra untap. Prophet of Kruphix isn't even beefy.
It sees some EDH play, but that's not enough to raise its price any higher than it is now.
June 18, 2014 4:58 p.m.
I guess that answers my question lol. Its all in the meta.
One thing someone asked was why play prophet + kruphix and the answer is hydras. You can get huge hydras lol.
June 18, 2014 4:58 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #14
dies to doom blade. I know it's kind of an overly used answer, but that's what it comes down to, you don't wanna spend that long on something that dies to common removal.
June 18, 2014 5:08 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #15
That is a terrible argument.
Dark Confidant dies to Shock , Lightning Bolt , Path to Exile , etc. Still over $80.
June 18, 2014 5:11 p.m.
@Kage-no-Raito The only creatures that R/G monsters runs that a Simic build couldn't are Stormbreath Dragon and Ghor-Clan Rampager and the rampager is typically used for his ability and only hard cast when it's a necessity. U/G could always add in Arbor Colossus to replace the dragon, who coincidentally can block stormbreath, kill it with it's monstrous ability, and his monstrous ability even cost less. It's not the creature base that makes R/G monsters more attractive than a U/G build because they're essentially the same, it's Domri Rade , Xenagos, The Reveler , Mizzium Mortars , and Anger of the Gods that make the Red a more viable splash than Blue. Being able to interact with your opponents board using removal makes more sense in a creature based deck than using the counter magic and tempo plays that blue offers.
June 18, 2014 5:14 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #17
Yeah, but with dark confedant, you're investing 2 mana. To make a hydra like phaze is talking about, you need probably your whole turn and the opponent's whole turn, just to lose out to a 2 mana spell. you're investing a LOT more mana wise that you would with dark confidant.
Point being, if you want to make a big investment, you need some kind of insurance.
June 18, 2014 5:24 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #18
If there were a hexproof hydra, or one that spawns stuff on death, it would be signifigantly better. But letting your opponent use a doom blade to time walk you is never a good idea.
June 18, 2014 5:25 p.m.
but like, you can play Sylvan Caryatid and still play Prophet of Kruphix in a mono green deck...
June 18, 2014 7:49 p.m.
I think he meant if the prophet were mono green, not the deck, because then it could be included in a deck like R/G monsters or Jund Monsters which are both better options than splashing blue.
June 18, 2014 7:59 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #22
UG midrange with Terra Stomper , Cyclonic Rift . prophet and courser. eeeegads M15 scares me.
June 18, 2014 8:14 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #23
@HorrorAvengers it might have escaped your notice but U is where all the counters are at. Removal shouldn't worry the simic player.
June 18, 2014 8:16 p.m.
@Schuesseled that's actually kind of the problem, Prophet of Kruphix wants to be in a creature heavy deck to take advantage of his ability to give creatures flash, since he most likely won't win the game on his own. Even though your mana untaps during your opponents upkeep, having mana available for counterspells and flashing in threats on your opponents turn are contradicting strategies. A smart player will just kill your creature after you tap out to flash it in on their turn, when your counter spells are useless. I suppose you could go the stall route until you can protect the things your flashing in, similar to the way a control deck functions, but there's a reason control decks aren't creature heavy. It's because all of the other elements are necessary in order to accomplish those stall tactics while protecting their wincon, and even if a control deck could protect the creature they flash in, the prophet would just be a wasted slot in the deck, because it'd be just as easy to protect it after casting it on your turn.
June 18, 2014 9:08 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #25
Abenz said it better than I can. Theoretically simic should be able to ramp enough to play big stuff and back it up with counters but in practice even with prophet that's sub-optimal. Either you're slowing yourself down or you're wasting half your deck, and even with counters you're gonna use them on removal and wish you had them when your opponent plays a gary or master of waves. Blue-green isn't exactly strong on hard removal. All we have for non fliers is rapid hybridizarion, and, coincidentally, the token kills prophet.
June 19, 2014 12:46 p.m.
You don't play counters in a creature deck unless you're playing tempo, which doesn't really work in Standard at the moment.
If you're playing Simic Monsters and want to protect your things, wouldn't Simic Charm be infinitely better?
June 19, 2014 12:58 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #27
I feel like it's personal preference between simic charm or counters. They're both versatile in different ways, I like charm better. But counters can permanently kill creatures.
June 19, 2014 1:05 p.m.
But counters can't deal with things that are already on the board. And Simic Charm can pump or bounce whatever's in your way.
In a creature-heavy deck like Monsters, it's all the protection you need since you can just run over anything in your way. It also protects your Planeswalkers and it's actually better against Detention Sphere and Banishing Light than counters are (since you can force your opponent to exile something he controls).
June 19, 2014 1:09 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #29
That's what I'm saying, I know a lot of people that would rather have the counters, me personally I'm disappointed simic charm doesn't see much play.
June 19, 2014 1:11 p.m.
Never mind. I'm bad and hadn't read Banishing Light or Detention Sphere in a long time.
It worked that way against Oblivion Ring , though. That's where that thinking came from.
June 19, 2014 1:18 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #31
haha it's a easy mistake to make. In all fairness, in multiplayer that still works XD jsut not on the opponent that cast the Ring 2.0
June 19, 2014 1:39 p.m.
assassin54853 says... #33
Okay, I don't want to hear anybody here state that Simic is bad or doesn't have good creatures. Prophet of Kruphix is an amazing card! I'm a Boros player and I know that! I have a friend who can mana ramp like crazy. Then, BOOM! He plays a hydra at instant speed. Prophet of Kruphix is a multiplayer god. I just think it's underused/underestimated. If you have big creatures to go with it, welp, your opponent dies. It can do SO MUCH for a Simic player!
June 20, 2014 3:39 p.m.
It's not that the Prophet is bad; it isn't. The problem is that everything else you could be playing in a U/G Monsters deck is just better. You don't need to screw around with Flash and whatnot when you could just be casting a huge creature then.
If you want to use it against control, there are still better options.
June 21, 2014 6:36 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #35
We're talking competitive, like a more competitive FNM level. In casual prophet is a boss. And then some.
June 21, 2014 7 p.m.
assassin54853 says... #36
You're right. Why would you ever waste time playing a Prophet of Kruphix ? You're just totally wasting your mana because you can't play any creatures at all on your opponent's turn or anything. It's not like you can play creatures on your turn AND your opponent's turn. That's preposterous.
June 21, 2014 11:36 p.m.
Let's shut down the sarcasm machine. It only hurts you when you have no clue what you're on about.
The problem is that you don't see the card for what its job is; Prophet is an enabler. Its job is to allow you a bit more versatility at the cost of losing out on raw power. In a Monster deck, you already have Domri and Garruk and massive mana ramp to enable everything else. Part of the reason Monster decks are even successful is that they have a few, very efficient enabling cards and the rest of the deck is muscle.
Prophet comes in and takes away from your muscle to add a superfluous ability that the deck doesn't need (not particularly want) in the first place. If I cast a Prophet, then whatever I flash in has to be strong enough to make up not only for itself from my hand, but also for the Prophet (which really sucks at killing players, if you haven't looked at the card). That, and there's really no match-up where the Prophet is since there are better sideboard options against everything.
If it was good, you'd see it regularly in top 8 decks. But you don't, so there's my proof
That should be my motto on T/O.
June 22, 2014 1:38 a.m.
@assassin54853 it's obvious you spend most of your time playing casually and very little time playing in even a slightly competitive environment. In order to play creatures on your turn and your opponents turn you have to have the cards to play. That means you now have to add a ton of draw to the deck in order to make up for how fast you burn through your hand. Based on everything else that's been said, in order to have the prophet in your deck, it's got to be stocked with creatures, card draw, counter spells, and plenty of land as well. It's a 60 card deck! How much space do you really think you have? Everyone acts like you can just throw the prophet into any deck that is U/G and he'll function perfectly, which just isn't true. And guess what... when you tap out to play your prophet, I'll kill it. How are you going to play creatures on my turn or counter my removal if you just wasted your whole turn?? Creatures that are that susceptible to removal have to win you the game if they stick. The prophet doesn't do that, if it sticks it just enables you to put threats on the board. Which is just purely stupid from a competitive standpoint because you could have just played your threat in the first place. Instead your taking an extra two turns to cast the prophet (hoping it sticks), then going through your whole next turn just to flash it in on your opponents turn. Those are opportunities you missed to deal damage because you were trying to be cute and flash in your creatures.
June 22, 2014 10:34 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #40
Saying Courser of Kruphix
gives "extra card, extra land, life, better body, etc.." is a little misleading. It isn't Oracle of Mul Daya
plus lifegain. It gives no extra land, and only gives the option of playing another card if it is a land.
The power of Courser of Kruphix
is that it severely limits the amount of dead draws you get by allowing you to get lands out of your deck.
June 22, 2014 11:17 a.m.
Your right he doesn't give an extra land, whoever said that either didn't know what they were saying or explained it incorrectly, but the rest of it is all accurate. Nothing misleading about it at all, because he really does provide card advantage, life gain, and a better body.
June 22, 2014 11:31 a.m.
Every time you play a land off the top, Courser was "Draw a card, gain 1 life" for free.
You can't argue with that.
June 22, 2014 11:38 a.m.
assassin54853 says... #43
@zandl "If it was good, you'd see it regularly in top 8 decks. But you don't, so there's my proof" That's a terrible motto. Ugh, that motto just wreaks of net-decker. >.<
June 23, 2014 12:51 a.m.
Only insecure players and casual players complain about net-deckers.
If the card was doing well in large competitive tournaments, you'd see it. However, you don't see it meaning it's not doing well in large competitive tournaments.
Therefore, it's not a highly competitive card.
How is there any fault in this logic?
June 23, 2014 12:56 a.m.
assassin54853 says... #45
Just because a card doesn't see tons of competitive play doesn't mean it's not good. Prophet of Kruphix isn't great alone, but if you have a couple good cards to back it up, then it's amazing!
June 23, 2014 1:18 a.m.
Your definition of good is on a spectrum of every card that has ever existed.
My definition of good is in comparison to what's winning currently.
We have different definitions.
k
June 23, 2014 1:24 a.m.
assassin54853 says... #47
Okay, not every card that has ever existed is good, and I never said that either. If you limit your idea of "good" cards to what's winning currently, you're never be a great player.
June 23, 2014 1:29 a.m.
the whole "you'd see it regularly in the decks that top 8 if it was good" argument is just weak. The obvious and most recent examples that show how pathetic that argument is, are Desecration Demon and Nightveil Specter . Both were $1 bulk rares for a whole year before they started seeing play in mono black devotion decks. Now, those cards didn't suddenly get reworded to make them better, they are the same card they've always been. Yet, according to your definition though, the day before the Theros pro tour they both were horrible cards, but immediately afterwards they because great cards because they appeared in lots of decks that top 8'd. Do you see how stupid that sounds? It's not like the cards changed to get better, just your perception of them, since you now saw a pro using it.
There is nothing wrong with you having the opinion that this cards sucks, but if your really so determined to get people to agree with your opinion you might want to back it up with actual facts and not more opinions. Especially ones that are based on such flawed logic.
June 23, 2014 3:42 a.m.
Cards change throughout Standard seasons. Nightveil Specter was a shit card last season. The meta changed enough, though, and it started seeing play (mostly only because of its greedy mana cost - would you honestly expect people to play Frostburn Weird otherwise?).
Every time I refer to a card being competitively useful or not is in reference to the current Standard environment. How am I supposed to know if Prophet will be good or bad is year from now? I can only judge it as it currently is. I thought that was obvious.
"If you limit your idea of "good" cards to what's winning currently, you're never be a great player."
Now remember; let's use facts to back up our opinions.
June 23, 2014 10:52 a.m.
but your not judging the card your judging the meta... the card isn't going to change a year from now, so if you don't know if Prophet will be good or not then that means you don't know if it's good or not now.
It's not a matter of the Prophet being bad, the reason it doesn't see play is a meta issue. Saying the prophet is a bad card and saying the prophet is bad in the current meta are two different things. Saying the prophet is a bad card is like saying it will never be useful ever, and as you pointed out in your last post, you don't know if it'll be useful in a year or not. If you don't want people to provide rebuttals to what you say, then you need to understand yourself what it is that you are saying before you click submit. It will provide much less confusion for others, who can't just assume that even though you said one thing, you actually meant another.
vampirelazarus says... #2
Being a five drop might have something to do with it.
Also, the colors aren't the best in standard, atm, if I'm not mistaken.
I probably am, standard isn't my forte.
June 18, 2014 4:45 p.m.