Trying to decide between a couple of similar cards
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on March 23, 2016, 9:35 p.m. by abenz419
Which would be the better option? It's for a Marchesa, the Black Rose EDH deck. I would like to include one of these 3 into the deck. Archaeomancer,... Mnemonic Wall,... or Nucklavee. Is the lower cost of Archaeomancer enough to outweigh the smaller body, especially if recursion is a plan? Is the solid blocking ability of Mnemonic Wall worth it when it has one less way to add counters because it has defender and won't trigger dethrone? Nucklavee cost the most, but can potentially return 2 cards to hand and while has the restriction of red sorcery/blue instant... currently in the deck it only misses one card, Kolaghan's Command. Is the value of returning 2 cards worth the extra cost and the fact it doesn't hit 100% (but hits 99.9%) of the instants/sorcery in the deck?
My personal thoughts are leaning toward Archaeomancer or Nucklavee as both can attack to trigger dethrone where the wall can't. I'm want to go with Nucklavee as the pay off of returning multiple cards, multiple times, seems amazing. However, common sense says the cheaper cost of Archaeomancer means it'll be easier to play even with double U and it can be searched for with Dimir House Guard if I get something in the graveyard I want/need to abuse. So what are you thoughts, does the pay off of Nucklavee out weight the cost. OR, is the efficiency and searchability of Archaeomancer the smart choice?
the deck in question is
A rose by any other name
Commander / EDH
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Nucklavee looks to be the better option of the 3. 2 cards back and a small blocker body for only 2 CMC more over Archaeomancer who is just a chump blocker.
March 23, 2016 10:37 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #4
amazingdan: Neither Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip nor Snapcaster Mage would be better than those cards in a Marchesa deck, because they exile the chosen spell after it's cast, rather than let it be abused over and over.
Personally, I'd go with the Archaeomancer. It's smaller than Nucklavee, but that's an advantage because you want it to die. If Nuck attacks and gets a counter from Marchesa, it becomes a 5/5, which is not super likely to die in combat. If you have to attack again, it becomes even less likely. Archaeomancer only becomes a 2/3, very killable. You'll get recursion more often with it, in case you can't get a sac engine online.
March 23, 2016 10:58 p.m.
GreenGhost says... #5
My vote goes to Archaeomancer not hitting six and having the other one in hand would probably hurt a bit. I'm just a fan of lower cmc cards though.
March 23, 2016 11:23 p.m.
@amazingdan No it's not because it's budget, it's because the two creatures you mentioned don't do the same thing and are probably strictly worse at doing what I'm looking for. Your missing the fact that Marchesa provides creature recursion, but being at end of turn effects things. Baby Jace, would exile the spell after being recast, probably acceptable if I need to cast a sweeper from the graveyard but not what I want for my effects that steal creatures (which I can keep via counters and sac outlets). It also needs to be flipped in order to do what I want and I want the ability on a creature because that's what Marchesa will bring back. Snapcaster Mage only provides flashback, which again exiles, but also means I need to cast the spell when snappy enters since it will be at the end of turn. Again not what I want for the sorcery speed spells. The list of sorcerys do what I want, but again, Marchesa recurs creatures. With counters and sac outlets I can hypothetically use the ETB effects of a creature on each players turn. Those spells would be one time options (except the flashback) that are similar to what I want, but strictly worse because they're not creatures. I linked the deck so you could see what types of things would actually be recurred and in case anyone wasn't familiar with Marchesa, I assumed you would have looked.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic and GreenGhost, yeah I think that's the way I'm leaning as well. Like I said, common sense says go with Archaeomancer, but something about getting multiple uses out of Nucklavee where I get 2 cards back seems like so much fun. I know what I'm gonna cut for it so it'll be easy to add, but I'm also considering adding in Act of Treason or another similar effect or two and a couple of the cards I'm considering are red instants so if I manage to work these cards in suddenly Nucklavee whiffs on more cards, making it a little less valuable if it doesn't hit the steal creature effects. Which, I'll be casting more often than I'll be casting board wipes.
March 24, 2016 12:19 a.m.
My vote goes for Archaeomancer - it's the cheapest of the 3 to play and if you wanted to (presumably if you made the deck more control focused) you could add Riptide Laboratory which already works with Marchesa, but also cards like Venser, Shaper Savant and Izzet Chronarch.
March 24, 2016 3:05 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #8
I was going to say Archaeomancer because he is more flexible. Nucklavee cannot recur Crux of Fate or any other black spells in your deck.
Of the 9 instants and sorceries in your decklist (a bit low I think for using any of these) Nucklavee has 3 valid targets for one trigger and 4 valid targets for the other. Archaeomancer has all 9 of those as a valid target (plus the mentioned Dimir House Guard synergy). You're more likely to get your worth from him. I think the probability that 2 valid targets for Nucky are in the graveyard at a given time is low; it's more likely he'll only be used to return one card, as Archy does.
The only tutor I saw was Sidisi, Undead Vizier (though there's a fair amount of draw power in the deck) so forcing Nucklavee to be more useful is challenging.
That said, looking at your decklist, I don't know if these are your best options. I might rather look up Cauldron of Souls.
Disclaimer: Read the decklist while at work between calls, I might have overlooked something.
March 24, 2016 9:33 a.m. Edited.
@nobu_the_bard I've seen people running Cauldron of Souls in other deck list, and maybe there's some interaction I haven't seen, but I just don't understand it. Sure, I can save some creatures in random circumstances, but I see it as being easier to recur things using Marchesa and the +1/+1 counters already built into the deck than it would be to use the cauldron. The synergy in the deck comes from the +1/+1 counters and I just don't see the appeal of trying to remove the -1/-1 counters and working to get them back so they have synergy with the rest of the deck again.
Because Marchesa brings things back at end of turn, I'm not really looking for an infinite combo. The idea behind having something like this in the deck is so that I can make use of the creature stealing effects more because with +1/+1 counters and sac outlets, Marchesa lets them return to my side of the board. Also, getting repeated uses out of tempo plays like Cyclonic Rift and AEtherspouts would be huge as well. The deck started out as more of just a beatdown deck, with large creatures that marchesa helped recur. I've been transitioning the deck over to be more interactive with the creature stealing effects and such, so it may be a little difficult to tell what the deck really wants to do just by looking at it. Ideally, the deck will be based more around that concept as I get more games in with the changes I've been making to see what else can be replaced and what effects I need more of.
amazingdan says... #2
I assume this is budget, because Baby Jace and Snapcaster Mage would both be much better than any of those cards. Relearn, Pull from the Deep, or Mystic Retrieval would probably be better than those you mentioned as well. If you want to keep it budget creatures, Archaeomancer is probably the best one. Nucklavee is interesting, but awkward. I'm personally not a huge fan.
March 23, 2016 10:30 p.m.