mtg, mtg cards, magic the gathering, gaming, geeks
This began as a redo of my Guild Selesnya for the new age.
I like the idea of Lambholt, do you have any suggestions for what I should cut to fit her in?
If you actually bothered to read the description you would know that Jund Charm (which obviously has no place in this deck) is just a proxy for Rootborn Defenses, which despite being the first RTR card to be spoiled is still not in Tapped out's database.
The only reason I can link the card (as above) is that there was a forum thread detailing the problem.
I've certainly considered the wurms. The ramp is mostly just to get everything out as fast as possible, be it Wayfaring Temple , Growing Ranks ,, or card:Trostani, Selesnya's Voice herself. The deck takes a lot of setup for everything to work properly. (This is actually a problem I have against heavy removal, as they can cut off my supply of tokens before it really explodes.)
So I guess what I need to say is, what would Armada Wurm replace?I think I'd almost rather have some sort of draw mechanic to get me more two-drop effects. ANy suggestions on that front?
Any reason to use Naturalize instead of Sundering Growth? (Side note, is Sundering Growth wrong/not a real card? http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/sundering-growth/)
It's probably just me, but I would love to see one or two card:Death's Presence to make use of all that mana ramp.
I think you could cut a Growing Ranks and an Arbor Elf for the wurm. And I agree with the way to fuel your hand, I was thinking the same thing earlier but had no ideas. I thought a little harder and the only ideas I had were Triumph of Ferocity , which I'm skeptical, or the one I like a bit more Garruk, Primal Hunter . He puts out tokens, decently sized, makes use of some ramp, and then can be used to draw plenty of cards. Although figuring out more cuts is tricky for him.
Hmm, card:Death's Presence could be fun. I certainly chump block a lot. As always though, what to take out for it?
Sundering Growth looks awesome. I will definitely be swapping that for NAturalize as soon as Tapped out lets me. (It is real, tapped out just hasn't added it as it hasn't been completely absolutely 100% confrimed by wizards yet. I mean, they haven't even added Rootborn defenses, which was literally the first RTR card leaked.)
Okay, just to clarify. This deck does not need a finisher. It wins by swarming with buffed-up tokens. Any extra mana goes into flipping Grove of the Guardian or using card:Trostani, Selesnya's Voice's ability (or Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage 's if that ever makes it in here).
What I could really use is some kind of draw engine (I've considered Mentor of the Meek , but I'm just not fond of that card and I wouldn't get to use its ability that often). I have plenty of mana, several ways to create tokens, and a good populate engine. I just need to get to all of that faster. I would much prefer something like that over attempting to drop a 6-mana creature/enchantment. If I were going to use 6-mana cards, I would run Collective Blessing .
So after all that complaining about the expense of Armada Wurm , I managed to pull one at the RTR Pre-Release. XP
So, that's definitely going in there. I swapped him out for one of the two card:Trostani, Selesnya's Voice's, since that's a card that I'm unlikely to find more than one of (I'm very glad I managed to pull at least one of her though :D ).
I love the card Druid's Deliverance in this deck. It allows you to let the enemy alpha strike you, or at least swing with a finisher, and you can just not block, prevent that damage, and get a creature on their turn which you will use on your next turn to smash the enemy's face. Its almost like having another rootborn in that your creatures wont get hurt (because your not blocking) and you populate!
The ONLY downside is they have to deal damage to YOU not your premanants, so don't swing first Deliverance later. You have to at least pretend to be on defense.
I really like card:Druid's Deliverance myself, but I find it hard to fit in here. Are you saying it should be in my sideboard in place of Rootborn Defenses ? In that case, the rootborn is there to counter creature removal more than damage.
My problem is that I don't want to have more populate than I have tokens, and most of the 2-mana cards are token producers. So I really don't know what I would take out in favor of Deliverance.
I just had this cool idea man! get rid of the selesnya guild gates (because you have enough of the mana of those two colors :D ) and get rid of midnight haunting.
INSTEAD run 4 golgari gates and run lingering souls! worse case scenario you have a green mana that you play early, or a midnight haunting. best case scenario you get to flashback souls for more populate targets and keep card advantage!
Just an idea you can test in the deck while thinking of other ways to gain card advantage! :D
I hadn't thought about that, thanks! The only advantage Midnight Haunting has over Lingering Souls is the instant speed and I must admit I'm not really very good at taking advantage of that. So I'll try that out tomorrow and see how it goes.
Also, I would never have known I had that many views if you hadn't told me. XP
And once Gatecrash comes out, two of the Golgari Guildgate s will definitely switch to Orzhov Guildgate. Fixing mana in this deck is weird, I have more white symbols than green but I need more green to play Arbor Elf and card:Avacyn's Pilgrim. I always seem to get more white than I want and not enough green, but when I shift the ratios I suddenly stop getting white mana. I'll definitely be fine-tuning the mana base for a while.
Also increasing devotion is great in this deck because of the +1/+1 vigilance enchantments AND the +3/+3 enchantments you are running. Perhaps taking a couple of the larger costed spells out and adding a few of these can really give you a kill condition!
The case against Increasing Devotion is that 1) I will never populate a 1/1 unless it has flying (even then I won't often) and 2) that card is a too expensive for this deck. It is a 5-mana set of chump blockers. It is highly unlikely that I will have cast both Collective Blessing and Increasing Devotion . I am going for quality of tokens more than quantity.
On that same note, lets say you casted virtue on turn two... for five mana you're getting 10 power and toughness that you can populate, not to mention the card has flashback and you can only make them bigger as time goes on (more virtues or your other +3/+3 enchantment.
I also see where you're coming from, so if you don't enjoy playing that style, simply sont do it :D
If you get a token at all, Parallel Lives immediately gives you double that many. You have plenty of things that will generate a token (it looks like roughly 18 sources). The way I see it, each Growing Ranks gives you one more token each upkeep (in which case it has summoning sickness for a turn), but Parallel Lives immediately gives you 2x the tokens. Don't replace them all, of course, because you need both...
I was originally running Parallel Lives , but it was kind of messing with the way I play the deck. Here's why:
Say the first three turns I spend making tokens and/or dropping Arbor Elf s. On turn four, when I drop Growing Ranks , it has something to act on and then will help me continually for the rest of the game.
If I had started with that same hand but replaced Growing Ranks with Parallel Lives , I would not be guaranteed that same benefit. IF I did all that and then dropped parallel lives, I then would have to wait for more token producers to get any benefit. Also, my mind (which wants to make the most out of Parallel Lives ) usually tells me to not create ANY tokens until the enchantment is down, which usually screws me over. The only situation in which I would rather have Parallel Lives than Growing Ranks is when I plan on casting and/or flashing back Lingering Souls . Basically I'm usually only making one token at a time and I'd rather have the inevitability that Growing Ranks gives me than the burst of speed from Parallel Lives .
Also, yeah, if I ever get better lands they are so going in here.
I don't think Eyes in the Skies should be here. Even though it does exactly what you want, it's pretty expensive for what it does. Also, if you had Growing Ranks and Eyes in the Skies in your hand, which would you play? Obviously, Growing Ranks would be the better call, meaning Eyes in the Skies would just be taking up space. Or what if you had Eyes in the Skies , Growing Ranks , and card:Trostani, Selesnya's Voice all in your hand on Turn 4? Realistically, you wouldn't get to play Eyes in the Skies until Turn 6, and by then you'll have Armada Wurm (if you're lucky) or Collective Blessing , which could cause you to wait until turn 7 to cast it and I doubt it would be needed then.
Also, you should know that WotC aimed to slow the game down with this block coming out. There is not much draw card mechanic for any color. Mentor of the Meek is good (as you previously mentioned) but if you have two Intangible Virtue or a Collective Blessing out, then you no longer have any 1/1 creatures to activate it. So, while it is a good card for early game, I think you would have more important 3drops, plus it could become obsolete later game.
I have a deck that has a similar concept except it's based around Angels and is not very good at all. The only thing I could do to remedy some of the problems of W/G was to splash in a touch of blue, but even that is hardly a fix and causes its own problems. Still, blue allowed me to add Geist of Saint Traft , Curiosity (for draw card), and Ghostform (targeting Wayfaring Temple ).
Here it is, if you want to look at it: Bant Angel Tokens. Again, it's not a good deck at all but might give you some ideas IF you decide to splash blue, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend. More or less, we just have to accept that deck rushing is not what it used to be back in the Mirrodin block. You could, also, add some Chromatic Lantern s again that's a pretty poor substitute but it could allow you to add a few blue cards without having to add Islands, as well as allow you to Flashback Lingering Souls
Thanks for the analysis ErroneousDylan. Actually, if I had the choice between Growing Ranks and Eyes in the Skies , I would probably go for the immediate benefit of Eyes and then drop the enchantment next turn. I also don't draw my 6-drops that often, since there's only three of them.
However, I do see the problems with the card. I had tried to run card:Druid's Deliverance in its place (not for long, I'll admit) but it just felt off to me. Deliverance is a combat trick, and I tend to want wait until I get the benefit of both effects before using it. Eyes, on the other hand, can be used at the earliest opportunity to increase my army size. Also, 4 mana for 4 power (standard use is to create a bird and populate a centaur) is not a bad deal, especially when some of that is flying. It only gets better when I get the chance to populate a 5/5 wurm or 8/8 elemental AND also get a flying chump blocker and/or buffed evasion damage dealer to boot. The value of having flying tokens (and Eyes in the Skies represents 4/8 of cards that produce flyers) is really important, and the chance to get flying in addition to something big makes it better in my mind than say Midnight Haunting . I really think the card is a lot better than most people give it credit for.
That being said I am already thinking of plenty of situations in which I'd rather have card:Druid's Deliverance... I don't know. I'll have to test out the other options more. But Rootborn Defenses is definitely staying the sideboard to be swapped in when I face heavy removal. And Sundering Growth is already in there. :P
Thanks again for commenting, and I'd love to look at your deck.
it may seem odd to you, but you should consider throwing in Vault of the Archangel . I recommend it in any deck with the proper mana base and enough creatures. It's a gamechanger and all it will cost you is a land slot in your deck. I would also recommend beefing up your land base with more dual lands to help the colors in your deck draw more consistently, especially with you splashing black the way you do.
I'm trying to make a similar token deck. Based on your current build, you may want to consider replacing 2 of the Wayfaring Temple s with 2 Geist-Honored Monk s. It may mess with your mana base, but it will increase the token production and you'll still get that bad-A x/x creature alongside them (with vigilance I might add).
Can you explain me your perfect play?
And what about Farseek ?
Okay, I'll start by addressing the card suggestions.
Yes I had Rancor in here at first for Wayfaring Temple . I found it unnecessary. Basically, Temple doesn't need to hit the enemy; instead he forces them to block and thus lets me kill their creatures and lets my smaller (but no less deadly) threats through. Second, Rancor is next to useless when cast on any token other than the 8/8's. I really much prefer a good Intangible Virtue .
As far as Farseek goes, I'm pretty happy with my ramp as it stands now.
It's hard for me to nail down an ideal play for this deck, largely because it is so flexible. I'm pretty much happy playing any tokens as soon as I can, and then boosting them up with enchantments. If I had to nail 1 or 2 plays down it would be the following:
Strategy 1: Flyers First
T1: Forest, card:Avacyn's Pilgrim/Arbor Elf
T2: Forest/Plains, Lingering Souls
T5: Whatever land, Collective Blessing
T1: Forest, card:Avacyn's Pilgrim/Arbor Elf
T2: Forest/Plains, Wayfaring Temple
T4+: Start populate engine by various means
I was looking for spells to add into my Selesnya Deck. I really like your sideboard ! Although I think you are right about heavy removal being a large enemy, including lots of detentions spheres slowing play down. Everybody seems to much prefer Avacyn's Pilgrim over Arbor Elf.
Okay well I think you should use card:Cathars' Crusade as a maybe board. I'll have a look at your strategy of only using 7 cards with the populate ability. I generally lean heavy on populate and Cathars' Crusade is really good with this. Also, if you went to a pre-release (as I did) then you could also use Restoration Angel. Easy drop, and helps against those detentions!
@agjwilsonThanks! The sideboard has been pretty tough to put together, since I'm not really used to using them.
I like to run both card:Avacyn's Pilgrim and Arbor Elf . :P
To me, card:Cathars' Crusade runs into the same problem as Parallel Lives in that by the time it comes out I won't be making tokens as often as in the early turns (unless I have growing ranks out). Besides, when I have 5 mana I usually want to spend it to flip a Grove of the Guardian .
I guess the crusade would be more useful if I ran more populate effects. I used to use more populate, but I usually found myself with populate cards in hand but no tokens to use them on. So, over time, I gradually swapped out the populate cards for straight token generators. I'm pretty happy with the ratio I have now, since my biggest populator (Growing Ranks ) is re-usable.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about with Restoration Angel , since A) it's not in RTR so it wouldn't have shown up in the Pre-release and B) you can't flicker tokens. Did you perhaps mean Angel of Serenity ?
Restoration Angel, Yeah, its just a personal thing to counter some nuisances. But yes it came out in a pre-release. But it was the Avacyn Restored pre-release I believe. Never mind though, thanks again for posting your findings and I will enjoy re-editing my own deck.
Hey, I run a (sort of) similar deck that you can find at deck:gw-killing-machine if you want a few tips.
I have tried to play Collective Blessing before, and it just isn't fast enough for standard. Way too much of a mana cost. I would take out the 2 of them and throw in 2x Parallel Lives . Populate + A dumb-downed Doubling Season = Ohh yeah.I would also recommend finding room for a Garruk, Primal Hunter , Increasing Devotion , Thragtusk , and definitely 4x Loxodon Smiter . He may not be a token/token generator, but he is a Selesnya staple that you lack.
I don't know what I am doing wrong.. I have a deck just like yours and it doesn't work =/..where I play FNM people just use Thragtusk and Silverblade Palladin and I have no deffense against it becouse I ran out of tokens.. I really think that Token decks don't work very well.. it takes too much time to get a relyable Populate basis.At least a lot of time when you are fighting people that doesnt have a budget limit for deck construction. Until the Innistrad block exits standart I am relying in Arrest, OR and Pacifism to hold down those creatures and build the game. That way my deck became more of a "control" deck trying to lock up the enemies creatures and hit him with buffed tokens and creatures. I actually took out most of the tokens and started to rely more ate creatures.. I dont know.. Selesnya seemed like a perfect deck and for me it was desapointing.
Anyway! I really liked your decks and your posts really helped me, thanks Timekeeper !
I'm sorry to hear all that ToniMarino, and I understand your frustration. To be honest, I don't see a lot of FNM's, as I don't really get the opportunity to do so. Most decks I have here on TappedOut are thought experiments, ways for me to flesh out an idea and see how it works. However, I am hoping to play competitively more in the future, so I am always happy to hear how similar decks do in tournaments.
I'm glad you enjoy my decks, I do too. :P I completely understand the frustration of putting together an idea that you just know will be awesome... only to have it be less than competitively viable. However, if you are playtesting and adjusting your decks accordingly (which is what it sounds like you are doing), you will eventually reach something that is both fun and effective. Don't give up. Every struggle you have will make you a better player and a better deck builder. Don't be afraid to try new things and work hard to make them work, but at the same time let the deck do what it wants to do (yes, I know that sounds weird). A large part of creation is discovery, and if your deck looks nothing like you originally intended, that just means you have learned something about the game and yourself. So keep at it, you're doing great!
I'm surprised that Mentor of the Meek doesn't work with all the extra mana generation and the 8 1/1's I love that card. Trying to work out how to include it. I think maybe aiming for lower-level tokens? And including 4x Parallel Lives ? Then keep Eyes in the Skies , with Midnight Haunting but also: Gather the Townsfolk , Captain's Call , Increasing Devotion , Murder Investigation and/or Fungal Sprouting . Champion of Lambholt works OK with Mentor of the Meek , too? And could be useful if dropped early?
Let's see. First of all, I don't think I would recommend bothering with Wake the Reflections , it just doesn't do enough. All of the other populate methods do something else in addition to populating, and they are still fairly cheap. Rootborn Defenses saves me creatures from Supreme Verdict , Druid's Deliverance is a fog, and Sundering Growth is a Naturalize . The important thing to notice is that all of these spells (still only one or two mana more than Wake the Reflections do something useful even when I have no tokens to populate. Wake the Reflections just has too much risk of becoming a dead card.
Now, Advent of the Wurm on the other hand, is a fantastic card. Compare it to Armada Wurm , which despite much clamoring from commenters that it is an absolutely necessary card, rarely gets cast. Advent of the Wurm is just much more effective at getting out wurm tokens, and doing so in a way that can be very advantageous to you. It's a fairly aggressive card that also works well against control, in that it can be cast immediately after a field wipe. So with all that in mind, I would make the following edits to the deck:
-1 Armada Wurm
And, if you're feeling particularly aggressive:
Now, I would most likely just stick with the first of the two edits, since I enjoy how completely Trostani, Selesnya's Voice hoses aggro and the excellent inevitability that Growing Ranks provides. However, taking the deck in a more agressive direction would probably see those cut.
Hope this helps!
its been about 10-15 yrs since I last played this wonderful game but I recently linked back up with my collection after visiting my mother and got the "Magic Bug" again! (haven't played since between 4th & 7th Editions and am now @ the Ripe Old Age of 30 :P) .... But after buying a few boxes n dabbling, I seem to have stumbled onto this "deck type" as where I see myself going in Standard Play... It will be a Green & White "Population Deck", since I had gotten cards such as Call of the Conclave, Devout Invocation, Grove of the Guardians, Growing Ranks, Armada Wurm, & Elspeth, Sun Champion... These cards appear to me, to be a "Good start" towards creating this Deck for Standard Play.
You guys bring up some awesome cards to add to my G/W Populate deck, since I'm just getting back into the swing of things, almost every one of these cards is new to me, which is obviously awesome!
Cards that seem like "musts" for my G/W Pop. Deck (that I didn't mention above) are Wayfaring Temple, Intangible Virtue, Collective Blessing, & though it has no "populate effects" - Loxodon Smiter seems like a "must" in any G/W deck.... also possibly Wild Beast Master if room... Wayfaring Temple seems like a possible BEAST in this deck for only 3 converted mana & possibly pumped up big time - me likey! Other "smaller" cards such as Arbor Elf and Avacyn's Pilgrim seem like great cards to generate mana much quicker, thus speeding up the "Populate Machine"... Brave the Elements and Gods Willing also seem like nice, quick, little spells (both only 1W & Instants) to 'defend the hoard' against common Rakdos creature killers such as; Anger of the Gods, Heroes' Downfall, or Doom Blade. Now I know this deck is predicated on being Aggro so would you guys possibly consider the use of Brave the Elements / Gods Willing useless, other than my "Sideboard" of course? Sundering Growth is another card which I pondered, but will ultimately almost definitely just include it into my sideboard...
Are there anymore "G/W Pop. Cards" (modern) that I'm just flat out missing on??? I really like the idea of this deck bc from what I can see/what I've read; Rakdos Control decks would seem most likely to pose a direct threat to these hoards quickly, but my 'potential' protection cards will hopefully aid in the prevention of this happening... we shall see, it's still super-early in the game for me, but I'm excited to be back on my game! any feedback and/or criticism would be great!
Basically the deck operates well enough at 2 or 3 mana per turn that you don't need 1/5 of your spells to be lands with human fragility.
So don't mana ramp at all. Just replace the 8 mana producers w/ more cheap token producers and/or extra populate effects... and stick with the original idea of Flattening the opponent with a hoard.
Again, thanks for the deck