Waste Not and Death Cloud Resolution Clarity

Asked by GottaBeThatGuy 9 years ago

If I have a Waste Not in play, and I resolve a Death Cloud where X is considerably large, such as 3, I ran into an issue and need clarification.

  1. Does it resolve in the order of: We both lose 3 life, then we both discard 3, then we both sacrifice 3 creatures then both sacrifice 3 lands?

  2. If my above understanding is true, does Waste Not proc as soon as they discard, or does it wait until Death Cloud finishes resolving?

I ask because if it immediately procs, it will make me sacrifice all my zombies I just created, and discard all the new cards I just drew.

Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #1

Whenever an ability triggers during the resolution of another spell or ability, it "waits" until the resolving thing is completed before going on the stack itself. deathcloud will resolve in that order, but there are no breaks in between to put triggered abilities. Waste Not's abilities will wait to go on the stack until after deathcloud has resolved.

January 1, 2016 9:22 p.m.

GottaBeThatGuy says... #2

Thanks a ton! Guess my plan isn't ruined after all.

January 1, 2016 9:28 p.m.

mortilus says... #3

Learn about the stack: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Stack

Sometimes the only way to figure out wtf is going on is to meticulously track when things are put onto the stack and to pop everything one at a time. Living Death in particular can create some monstrously complicated stack effect resolutions when played in a multiplayer game with many ETB creatures

For example, what happens if Player 1 casts Living Death, and then ...

Player 1 returns:

Player 2 returns:

Player 2 loses the game now, unless he has certain spells in his hand and mana to cast them. Can you tell why?

January 1, 2016 9:52 p.m.

Raging_Squiggle says... #4

@ mortilus: This is better suited in a forum post than in an answered question. However, I will still humor you.

Your example is too open-ended and too many things are happening to guarantee Player 2 will lose. Assuming both players are at 20 life and I am player 2:

Creatures all enter the battlefield and abilities trigger in APNAP order. So my triggered abilities will resolve first.

Player 1 does not activate Viscera Seer's ability to sacrifice the targeted creatures because he thinks they will be coming right back thanks to Noxious Ghoul's many triggers. (usually, rightfully so, but this is a special case which they may not be knowledgable of). When Fiend Hunter's ability resolves and exiles Angel of Serenity before her first ability resolves, her second ability will trigger and simply do nothing. Then her first ability will resolve and permanently exile Blood Artist, Overseer of the Damned, and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Grave Titan gets exiled via Luminate Primordial, and Viscera Seer is exiled under Banisher Priest. Evangel of Heliod resolves, giving me 11 1/1 tokens. Angel of Glory's Rise resolves, exiling player 1's board permanently.

Then player 1's abilities resolve. Gray Merchant of Asphodel resolves, making me lose 0 life because he has no devotion to . Player 1 gets 2 2/2 zombie tokens from Grave Titan's ability. Overseer of the Damned resolves, destroying something (Presumably targeting Angel of Serenity or Angel of Glory's Rise, but Serenity is not in play and is no longer a legal target, and Glory Rise already resolved its ability so it's useless now).

Noxious Ghoul had 4 instances of zombies entering the battlefield under Player 1's control, so my creatures get -4/-4 until end of turn.

Evangel of Heliod dies, the 11 1/1's die, Mentor of the Meek dies, Banisher Priest dies, Fiend Hunter dies. Player 1 immediately gets back Viscera Seer as it was exiled under Banisher Priest. (Since Banisher Priest's ability was a continuous one, it simply stops the moment he leaves the battlefield). Fiend Hunter's second ability triggers, returning Angel of Serenity to the battlefield under my control. I target Player 1's 2 zombie tokens and his Viscera Seer he just got back. I now have a superior board position, and I have not lost.

Now, once all is said and done, your example scenario is rather vague as there are a multitude of things that can happen. Who targets what creature with what triggered ability, will one player activate this ability now, later, or not at all, for which creature would he activate the ability for, and since Player 1's abilities go on the stack first, I will know all of his targets for his abilities before I make any of my choices. However, as I showed above, one possible scenario shows not only player 2 not losing, but likely winning the game instead.
January 2, 2016 1:39 a.m.

mortilus says... #5

don't "humor me". I know what will happen; !@#$ like this goes down all the time in games I play, but worse because there's 3-4 players instead of 1-2. I keep requesting that Living Death be banned because spending 20 minutes resolving one spell and its fallout is not my idea of fun.

If you know how the stack and priority works well enough, then the scenario I provided is torturous, but doable. If you don't know it well enough, then a question like "can an effect triggered by a spell resolve while the triggering spell is resolving?" wouldn't occur in the first place (except very special circumstances like Panglacial Wurm).

January 2, 2016 3:27 p.m.

Raging_Squiggle says... #6

No need to be hostile. You posted the example and wanted people to give you an answer, which I did. I simply gave a scenario that contradicted your assumed outcome.

Living Death is not a bad card whatsoever, nor is Living End. If you want a card to be banned for taking too long resolving, take a look at Warp World, Scrambleverse, and Thieves' Auction.

In addition, the stack in your example is rather simple. Player 1's abilities go on first, then each other player in turn order puts theirs on one at a time and resolves in reverse order. It's just a matter of what to target and if a player wants to activate an ability in response to the current object on the stack.

January 2, 2016 5:12 p.m.

mortilus says... #7

... I didn't want an answer. You asked a question about spell resolution. I provided further information related to your question, recommended learning it, and provided a scenario in which learning it would be useful.

And yes, all any of it is, is just putting things on the stack and then passing priority and then letting things resolve. But in the scenario presented, Player 1 would either have to make a huge mistake to allow Player 2's abilities to resolve before dealing a huge amount of damage to Player 2, assuming Player 2 even survives. Keeping track of all of those effects and resolutions is the hard part.

After Player 2 assigns the targets for their ETB effects, Player 1 is still provided an opportunity to respond to those assignments. Sacrificing a targeted creature and returning it with Mikaeus' Undying causes it to be treated as a new creature, and any targeted exiling would therefore fizzle due to the returned creature being considered a different creature from the one that was originally targeted (the original target no longer exists).

January 2, 2016 5:26 p.m.

GottaBeThatGuy says... #8

Didn't mean to cause an argument :s. Also, he's not the OP.

January 2, 2016 5:32 p.m.

Raging_Squiggle says... #9

I didn't ask any question about spell resolution. You're mistaking me for the OP. Also, I am knowledgeable on the stack and how it works. (Blue is my favorite color after all. ;p ).

On a side note, Panglacial Wurm has no triggered ability. Triggered abilities are begun with "when/whenever/at" not while. As stated in this ruling:

603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as [Trigger condition], [effect], and begin with the word when, whenever, or at. They can also be expressed as [When/Whenever/At] [trigger event], [effect].

Panglacial Wurm has something called a static continuous ability. Brago's Representative has a similar ability which would not trigger every time you vote on something, it just happens.

604.1. Static abilities do something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. They are written as statements, and theyre simply true.

604.2. Static abilities create continuous effects, some of which are prevention effects or replacement effects. These effects are active as long as the permanent with the ability remains on the battlefield and has the ability, or as long as the object with the ability remains in the appropriate zone, as described in rule 112.6.

112.6d An object's ability that restricts or modifies how that particular object can be played or cast functions in any zone from which it could be played or cast.

GottaBeThatGuy, no argument over here, at least where I'm standing. I'm just having a discussion on the stack and possible outcomes. :)

January 2, 2016 5:40 p.m.

mortilus says... #10

Oh. Yeah, no argument here either. I was confusing the two of you, my mistake. No wonder you had a good answer for how to resolve the scenario I presented. Not what actually happened, but good enough :)

Yeah, i included the Panglacial Wurm as an example of an "very special circumstances", not really as a "triggered ability"

Speaking of Scrambleverse, funny story: I actually cast it a while back, and half the table sat there and argued about it, and eventually scooped and walked away. It took less time to resolve the spell than they spent arguing about whether I should have cast it.

January 2, 2016 5:58 p.m.

This discussion has been closed