Mogis, God of Slaughter Devotion?
Asked by CardTyrant 11 years ago
When it says 7 black and red, does that mean 7 black and 7 red for a total of 14, or 7 black and red mana which means I could have 7 black and no red, or 7 red and no black?
a combination of 7, hybrid symbols only count as 1 to that 7. so a spell that can be either red or black only adds 1.
February 19, 2014 12:10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3
Please link all cards in your question.
Mogis, God of Slaughter
Mogis, God of Slaughter 's ability counts the number of mana symbols that are at least red or black. Hybrid mana symbols are only counted once because they are only single symbols.
February 19, 2014 12:58 a.m.
greensaleen says... #4
A hybrid symbol counts for one of each. For example Rakdos Cackler would give one red and one black to your devotion. Giving you 2 towards Mogis, God of Slaughter becoming a creature.
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
so a B/R symbol is one symbol towards red and one towards black.
February 19, 2014 1:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@greensaleen: While it's true that a hybrid symbol is both colors, it only adds a single devotion to Mogis, God of Slaughter 's count. Mogis, God of Slaughter 's ability checks whether each symbol is at least red or black. Hybrid mana symbols are both, but that doesn't matter. The check is a simple "yes/no" check, not a "how many" check.
February 19, 2014 1:39 p.m.
greensaleen NO. Hybrid counts once for a single god's devotion it is either B or R for Mogis with cackler. It would be broken the way you describe. Boros Reckoner alone would put mogis online. It would count for one each if you have another god online that could check for B or R. Each god checks for it's own devotion and will only find one for each symbol in hybrid mana.
"Your devotion to two colors is equal to the number of mana symbols that are the first color, the second color, or both colors among the mana costs of permanents you control. Specifically, a hybrid mana symbol counts only once toward your devotion to its two colors. For example, if the only nonland permanents you control are Xenagos, God of Revels and Rubblebelt Raiders (whose mana cost is 1 ManaRed or Green ManaRed or Green ManaRed or Green Mana), your devotion to red and green is five."
source (look for the devotion information on that page).
February 19, 2014 1:40 p.m.
Not reckoner specifically above, but I hope you get what I mean.
February 19, 2014 1:43 p.m.
greensaleen says... #8
Boros Reckoner would produce 3 red and 3 white which wouldn't make Mogis, God of Slaughter a creature (devotion would be red 4 and black 1 totaling 5 if that is all you had.)
While that source is straight forward, it does contradict how they have ruled how devotion count works, in that a hybrid symbol creates one of each. So a B/R would create one of black and one of red.
So if gods check number of relevant mana symbols not number of colored mana symbols, then the comprehensive rules are incorrect, since they state you count the number of symbols in a color and a B/R symbol would be 1 red and 1 black symbol
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
February 19, 2014 1:54 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
You're misinterpreting the ability.
Devotion to two colors does NOT check how many instances of each color you have among mana symbols in the mana costs of your permanents. It only counts the number of mana symbols you have that are at least one of the two colors.
From the BNG release notes:
Your devotion to two colors is equal to the number of mana symbols that are the first color, the second color, or both colors among the mana costs of permanents you control. Specifically, a hybrid mana symbol counts only once toward your devotion to its two colors. For example, if the only nonland permanents you control are Xenagos, God of Revels and Rubblebelt Raiders , your devotion to red and green is five.
February 19, 2014 2 p.m.
greensaleen says... #10
I understand that, but that explanation is not what the rules state. I'm not trying to be stubborn I agree that according to the BNG release notes each correctly colored symbol only counts as one, BUT that is not an errata to the comprehensive rules which state that when checking devotion a B/R symbol would count for one of each.
February 19, 2014 2:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
As I said, you're misinterpreting what the rules say.
Provide the specific rule that confuses you and I will explain.
February 19, 2014 2:08 p.m.
@greensaleen Maybe this explanation will help.
Magic generally makes two kinds of comparisons, positive and negative. A positive comparison cares only if an object has that characteristic, regardless of any other characteristics it might have. A negative comparison needs an object to lack a quality even if it has other qualities.
So a Rakdos Cackler can be a target of say, Blue Elemental Blast , since it is making a positive comparison for redness. It asks of the target "Are you red?" and the Cackler says "Yes" regardless of the fact that it is -also- black. Whereas Terror is making a negative comparison for blackness. It says "Are you NOT black" and Cackler says "Sorry, even though I am also red, I am, in fact black."
Devotion to a colour is making a positive comparison for that colour, but the thing which trips people up is that it doesn't ask an OBJECT "What colours and how many of mana are in your mana cost" it actually asks each MANA SYMBOL 'Are you X?'
So something with CMC 3 like Boros Reckoner is ONLY EVER going to be able to return a MAXIMUM of three 'yes' answers to a given question. The trick about the demigod devotion is that it is asking one question which makes two comparisons, not two questions.
For Boros Reckoner to count for 6 for the red/white demigod, the demigods would need to say "Unless your devotion to red and your devotion to white are in total less than 7, ~ isn't a creature" But it doesn't, it says "Unless your devotion to red and white"
In the same way that you can't target the same thing twice with Arc Trail (because it says 'a target' and then 'another target') but you can with Common Bond (since it doesn't say -another-) the fact that demigod devotion is combining the two qualities into one positive comparison is the important feature.
Mogis, God of Slaughter says to each mana symbol "Hey there mana symbol, are you black or red?" and the symbol can only say "Yes" or "No" So it asks the one mana symbol on Rakdos Cackler "Are you either red or black?" and it says "yes" and counts for 1.
February 19, 2014 2:14 p.m.
tl;dr version: Rakdos Cackler provides:
1 devotion to 'black'
1 devotion to 'red'
1 devotion to 'black and red'
1 devotion to 'black and red and green and blue and white'
Because it has only 1 mana symbol, no single check of devotion to ANYTHING is going to get more than 1 out of something with only one mana symbol.
February 19, 2014 2:16 p.m.
greensaleen says... #14
Its not a confusion.
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
According to that ruling my Rakdos Cackler has 1B/R hybrid symbol. So my devotion to red is one and my devotion to black is one. If there was a card that said deal one damage for each devotion to red, and a different card that said deal one damage for each devotion to black, and I cast both of them they would both deal one damage if the only permanent I had out was Rakdos Cackler .
Under that same ruling (700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.) if I only had a Rakdos Cackler on the field and I was asked whats my devotion to red? The answer would be one. Then asked whats my devotion to black? the answer would also be 1. So my devotion to red and black is 2
February 19, 2014 2:17 p.m.
No.
Your devotion to black is 1. Your devotion to red is 1.
Your devotion to black PLUS your devotion to red is 2. (This is not what demigods do)
Your devotion to 'Black and Red' is 1.(This is what demigods do)
February 19, 2014 2:19 p.m.
greensaleen says... #17
Thanks Devonin That clarifies why the demi-gods count different, but is devotion counted card by card? The contradiction is still that a B/R symbol still adds one to my devotion to red AND one to my devotion to black
February 19, 2014 2:23 p.m.
Right, and you may add to a list of "Tall people" and also a list of "People with Brown Hair" But on a list of "People who are tall and/or have brown hair" you're still only one guy.
February 19, 2014 2:26 p.m.
If it made two checks and then combined them, Rakdos Cackler would count for 2. But they make only one check looking for either quality, and successfully finds one. That it finds both doesn't matter.
February 19, 2014 2:27 p.m.
greensaleen says... #20
Devonin It has to be PLUS other wise I would need seven red AND seven black if I have 4 Tormented Soul and 3 Legion Loyalist I have a devotion of 4 black and 3 red giving me a devotion of 7 for black Plus red. If I need a devotion of 7 for black and red not giving a PLUS value then I do not meet this since neither value is 7.
February 19, 2014 2:29 p.m.
It's checking each mana symbol among your permanents and saying "Are you black or red?" And a black symbol says "yes", and a red symbol says "yes" and a green symbol says "no" and a red/blue hybrid symbol says "yes" and at the end of asking all your mana symbols, it says "Did I get 7 yes's in there?" and if yes, you get a creature.
February 19, 2014 2:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
It is a confusion.
"Devotion to X and Y" means "Devotion to one or more of [X and Y]."
You're performing one check, and this one check gets one answer from each mana symbol.
- If the mana symbol is at least one of X or Y, then the check is positive, and your devotion goes up by one.
- If the mana symbol is both X and Y, then the check is positive, and your devotion goes up by one.
- If the mana symbol is neither X nor Y, then the check is negative, and your devotion is not incremented.
It's like Coat of Arms . Coat of Arms checks whether something is true (if there is a shared creature type). Llanowar Elves and Elvish Mystic are both "Elf Shaman," but they only give each other +1/+1 because Coat of Arms checks whether they share a type, not how many types they share.
The reason you're confused is that you keep misinterpreting 700.5.
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Note that 700.5 explicitly states you're counting mana symbols, not colors.
In this case, we're dealing with devotion to two colors. You're trying to apply 700.5 as "[devotion to X] + [devotion to Y]," but that's not how it works.
Think of it this way. 700.5 says "A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls." Here, we have "A player's devotion to [red and black] is equal to the number of mana symbols of those colors among the mana costs of permanents that player controls." We're still counting mana symbols. We are NOT counting colors, and we are NOT counting twice.
February 19, 2014 2:46 p.m.
greensaleen says... #23
No you misinterpret 700.5
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the ((number of mana symbols of that color))among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
it is counting the number of symbols of a certain color a B/R is 2 colors, by just pointing out the middle of the sentence it doesn't complete the statement. You are checking the number of symbols of a color. One B/R symbol is 1 of red AND one of black meaning you have a devotion of 1 to each. Mogis, God of Slaughter doesn't check each symbol, he checks a number called your devotion which is calculated separately from the card. It has to be an additive check of color and symbols not one or the other.
February 19, 2014 3:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Checking the number of symbols of a color is still checking the number of symbols. Rakdos Cackler has only one mana symbol, so it can't ever give more than one devotion to anything. You can't count one symbol twice. Same for Boros Reckoner or Nightveil Specter or any other card; the devotion a card gives to a single check (and that's all it is one check) can never exceed the number of colored mana symbols on that card.
February 19, 2014 3:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
For yet another templating example, consider Nightscape Familiar . Its ability only reduces the cost of a spell by 1, regardless of whether that spell is blue, red, or both.
February 19, 2014 3:31 p.m.
greensaleen your interpretation, if it was correct, leads me to believe that I would need to pay R AND B to play a cackler, making the cmc 2. Not R OR B. I think you're not getting it's an OR not an AND or PLUS.
February 19, 2014 3:33 p.m.
Because a mana symbol can count for a given devotion check only once, you can think of this like sorting marbles into jars. If you are only putting "black marbles" in the jar, you can put in a black marble, a black and red marble, a black and green marble, all of those can go in there because all the marble needs to be is black. When you're done you can count how many marbles are in the jar.
If the jar says "Red and Black marbles" you can put in black marbles, red marbles, red and green marbles, black and red marbles, and black and blue marbles. When you're done you can count how many marbles.
All a multi-term positive comparison check does is expand the number of things which can come out positive. it does not, has not, and never will allow multiple counting of the same object, in this case, a mana symbol.
February 19, 2014 3:39 p.m.
greensaleen says... #28
Epochalyptik Nightscape Familiar works that way because if calls out 1 colorless as the cost drop of a single ability.
The big difference is that devotion is a single check PER COLOR. When Mogis, God of Slaughter comes in you calculate your devotion to red, then your devotion to black if that is higher than 7 you have a creature. If it were a single check per symbol only hybrid mana would give the needed devotion .
gufymikeit is a AND or PLUS though, if it was or you would need 7 RED or & Black not a combination totaling 7
February 19, 2014 3:42 p.m.
greensaleen 7 devotion to Red or Black leads me to believe a combination. 7 devotion to red and black, says 7 for both to me. 7 red plus black is an or. Really, forget the 'and' and move on.
February 19, 2014 3:44 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
You are still incorrect. Devotion is not a single check per color. It is a single check, period.
February 19, 2014 3:46 p.m.
greensaleen says... #31
Its a single check for red AND black the card says AND not OR. And is a combination that puts two separate things together.
For the marble situation if I have 3 red marbles and 3 black marbles and one black AND red marble, and some one asks how many marbles are black I say 4, how many marbles are red I say 4, If I am asked how many red and how many black I say 8. There are only 7 physical marbles but one meets both criteria.
February 19, 2014 3:54 p.m.
Just know that hybrids produce 1 color for devotion when playing and all will be good, otherwise you can get a warning or worse from a judge.
February 19, 2014 4:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
I would say 8 only if asked how many red plus how many black. If you're counting objects based on any criteria (whether that criteria is X, X or Y, or X and Y), then your final number cannot exceed the number of objects you have.
The ability in this case does not ask for the sum of your devotion to red plus your devotion to black. It asks for your devotion to red and black, which, by the game's wording conventions, means you check whether each mana symbol is at least red or black.
By contrast, War Report uses "plus" to indicate that you sum the totals, counting each total separately.
February 19, 2014 4:22 p.m.
greensaleen says... #34
But they don't they produce devotion for both colors. If i'm asked what my devotion is with a Rakdos Cackler as my only nonland permanent my answer is one red and one black, so it makes no sense for that logic not to carry on with every card. Devotion of 3 red and devotion of 4 black (from non hybrid cards) adds together for devotion of 7 from black and red, the same math should apply. I check red and black devotion and trigger off having 7 or more of a combined total of the two. Until an actual comprehensive rule change happens it can be called by judges both ways and I have seen both be called as correct from different judges at different events.
February 19, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
You should point those judges to the release notes, then.
February 19, 2014 4:32 p.m.
greensaleen says... #36
At the end of the day though, release notes are not official errata. They can be used as guides but if they open the rule pdf they are not there. I agree that yes Rakdos Cackler should only give 1 to Mogis, God of Slaughter , but on the other side this is a contradicting statement to how devotion for single colors is calculated.
February 19, 2014 4:36 p.m.
And any judge who has any idea how the rules work will not call this "either way"
Any judge who says Nightveil Specter plus Phenax, God of Deception equals Phenax being a creature has demonstrated a wholly inappropriate lack of rules knowledge about something so incredibly relevant to Modern and Standard right now.
February 19, 2014 4:36 p.m.
Not sure how many times and how many different ways to try explaining that "To Red and to Black" is not the same as "To red and black"
You are wrong, and it has been explained at least four different ways that I can see why you are wrong, and you're clinging to a wilfully ignorant interpretation of the rules to try and argue with people who know exactly what they are talking about.
If they printed a card that said "All red and black creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn" do you think that means a Rakdos Cackler gets +2/+2? There are SO MANY CARDS that have syntax like this which are clearly understood to still only make one, single, positive comparison to the object in question.
The trick here isn't even your interpretation of the rule about how devotion is counted, it's your interpretation of what devotion even looks at, which is not cards, but individual mana symbols.
February 19, 2014 4:40 p.m.
You're confusing how Sunscape Familiar 's mechanic works for how Grand Arbiter Augustin IV works.
February 19, 2014 4:41 p.m.
greensaleen says... #40
Nightveil Specter plus Oona's Gatewarden plus Thassa, God of the Sea , and Erebos, God of the Dead equals both gods being creatures at the same time though.
See the confusion now? In this situation I go well my devotion to blue is 5 and my devotion to black is 5 thats obvious why isn't my devotion to black and blue 10
February 19, 2014 4:46 p.m.
greensaleen says... #41
"The trick here isn't even your interpretation of the rule about how devotion is counted, it's your interpretation of what devotion even looks at, which is not cards, but individual mana symbols."
it is individual mana symbols per color that line keeps getting left out
700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the ((number of mana symbols of that color))among the mana costs of permanents that player controls
Its not willfully ignorant it is based in the fact that Rakdos Cackler gives you one red devotion and one blue devotion some times but only one or the other at other times.
February 19, 2014 4:51 p.m.
One mistake you're making when referring to rule 700.5 is that you see 2 colors in a hybrid symbol and think of it as 2 mana symbols when it is in fact only one symbol. A hybrid symbol, while being considered 2 colors, is still only considered one mana symbol, which means it can only be counted once, regardless of which color you count it as.
700.5. A players devotion to color is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
February 19, 2014 4:54 p.m.
Please go tell matt tabak, the mtg rules manager, that it is unclear and anyone ruling it the wrong way is correct.
February 19, 2014 4:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #45
greensaleen: You're still missing the basic logic that governs 700.5. If you count a group of objects based on a true/false check of their qualities, you can never end up with a total that is higher than the number of objects you have.
700.5 explicitly states that you count mana symbols; "of that color" is merely a prepositional phrase that explains what kinds of mana symbols you count. It's irrelevant for the moment. We still need to get over the idea that we're counting mana symbols. You can't end up with a devotion count that is greater than the number of mana symbols in mana costs among permanents you control.
Regardless of how many colors it is, a hybrid mana symbol is still only one symbol.
February 19, 2014 4:56 p.m.
greensaleen says... #46
but I can have one devotion to red and one devotion to black from a single mana symbol. That is unequal math if one red and one black equals one of red and black.
700.5 states color singular, so it checks each color individually.
February 19, 2014 5 p.m.
Remind me to organize a list of the total number of "smart and devilshly handsome" people, so I can end up with 2 of me, so one can go to work while the other plays magic.
February 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Yes, a check for a devotion to -X- checks each mana symbol for the characteristic 'X'
So 'Black' says "Are you black?" and 'Red' says "Are you red?" and 'Black and Red' says "Are you any of Black and Red?"
Your issue is that since "Devotion to Black" is a check you know how to do and "Devotion to Red" is a check you know how to do, that you can assume that "Devotion to Black and Red" is simply the total of those two checks but it is NOT. It is a NEW and SEPARATE check that is looking for "Mana symbols which are any of black or red" and checks each mana symbol ONE AND ONLY ONE time.
February 19, 2014 5:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #49
You aren't adding the devotions. There is no unequal math. You're counting mana symbols. One mana symbol is one mana symbol, regardless of its color or colors.
February 19, 2014 5:04 p.m.
Look again at the different wording between Stormscape Familiar and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
You think demigod devotion works like the latter, but it works like the former.
February 19, 2014 5:06 p.m.
greensaleen the deal with erebos and thassa, is they are each doing their OWN checks, it is either U OR B for their respective checks. They aren't looking at the total you can find and using that, they are checking once per symbol EACH. phenax, would total 8 with the same field including him, 2 from himself, 7 total from the the others, erebos and thassa each providing one, nightveil providing 3, and oona's gatewarden providing 1.
February 19, 2014 5:08 p.m.
Since we're stuck on the whole hybrid mana symbol issue, let me ask you this greensaleen....
How many mana symbols does Boros Reckoner have?
February 19, 2014 5:12 p.m.
greensaleen says... #54
gufymike but not talking about any card if that was my field state and someone asked your devotion to blue and black you would say 10 otherwise both god wouldn't be creatures. Devotion checks a single color and marks your devotion as X for that color that is how 700.5 read it says color not colorS
ljs54321 3 symbols, giving you 3 devotion to red and three devotion to white depending on what is looked for
February 19, 2014 5:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #55
Again, you misunderstand. Devotion to blue plus devotion to black is NOT the same as devotion to blue and black. Your conclusion is wrong because your basic assumption is wrong.
Your devotion to blue is five.
Your devotion to black is five.
Your devotion to blue and black is five.
Your devotion to blue plus your devotion to black, which is irrelevant because nothing uses this figure, is ten.
February 19, 2014 5:32 p.m.
10 is correct, because EACH is checking it's OWN. It is 5 to erebos, 5 to thassa. But for phenax, it wouldn't be 12. It's 8. You're not seeing hybrid is treated as OR. Just go talk to matt tabak and explain what you think and why you conclude this from the rules as stated. He has the power to fix the CR so it's not as ambiguous as you think.
February 19, 2014 5:33 p.m.
greensaleen says... #57
It very much is ambiguous to the 100s of younger new players who don't know how these old cards work. They will make this assumption and loose due to it not understanding the rules. You change how you calculate a certain symbols devotion depending on the card. No other rule in magic changes so readily as this one does. Nothing is solid and neither is the ruling as it only states one color to be calculated at a time.
If black and red have to be check only hybrid mana would give you devotion to black and red as the check for devotion to black and red is red yes black no then it doesn't give you black and red devotion based on the reading of 700.5.
Don't look at this like a seasoned player who knows weird wrong magic math, look at it as someone reading a card and the rules for the first time.
February 19, 2014 6:23 p.m.
Nothing is changing.
Here is how devotion works:
Erebos, God of the Dead --Count your black mana symbols. How many are there?
Mogis, God of Slaughter --Count your black and red mana symbols. How many total are there between the two?
Rule 700.5. A players devotion to color is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls.
Now, since you already determined that a card like Boros Reckoner or Nightveil Specter has 3 MANA SYMBOLS, which is what devotion counts (see bold itallicized section of Rule 700.5 above), you can see that they could only add a total of 3 devotion. Therefore, Rakdos Cackler can only add 1.
February 19, 2014 6:33 p.m.
Just because you can't understand how two separate positive comparisons for one term each are not the same thing as one positive comparison for any of two things does not make it so the rules are bad.
Just because you can't accept that a mana symbol is one object which can only be counted by one check once doesn't mean this is a poorly written or confusing rule.
February 19, 2014 6:34 p.m.
BTW, my 11 yr old son that has only been playing infrequently for just less than a yr and asks what the same card does each time it's played against him 3 turns in a row answered correctly how much devotion Cackler gives to Mogis. It has nothing to do with old player/new player.
February 19, 2014 6:35 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #61
You're trying to ascribe devotion to mana symbols as though it were a property of those symbols. It's not. Devotion is simply a check that asks whether each mana symbol among permanents you control is of a certain color. Nothing is changing. Different checks check for different colors.
February 19, 2014 6:45 p.m.
greensaleen - let's try a simpler explanation. Devotion counts the number of colored mana symbols in permanents you control. With Mogis, God of Slaughter
he wants to know whether you have 7 devotion to black and red in order to be active. This means that he needs at least 5 other black OR red mana symbols in permanents you control to be active, since he gives you 2 devotion already. When Mogis sees Rakdos Cackler
he asks, "How many colored mana symbols do you have?", Cackler says, "One." Mogis then asks, "Is it Red or Black?", and the Cackler responds, "Yes." Then Mogis goes, "Then you give me one devotion to red and black." It's a weird logical trip where the minor gods ask for devotion to X and Y, but the hybrid mana can only provide devotion to one color at a time since it's only one mana symbol.
February 19, 2014 6:49 p.m.
Here's hopefully another explanation that will clear things up...
If I play a Riverfall Mimic , and enchant it with a Clout of the Dominus , first the Mimic does a check on the colour of the card played: was it both red and blue? Yes, so I am now a 3/3 and unblockable until the end of the turn.
Then, the Dominus does its own check.: is the enchanted creature blue? Yes, so I will give it this ability. Then it does the second check separately: is the enchanted creature red? Yes, so I will give it this ability.
Finally, all checks are done, and the Mimic is a 3/3 who is unblockable until the end of the turn, with an aura giving him +1/+1 and shroud, as well as +1/+1 and haste. The result is a 5/5, who will revert back to a 4/3 at the end of the turn, though it will still have shroud and haste.
The checks work the same way with Mogis, God of Slaughter , as well as all the other two colour gods. They count all the mana symbols that are [x], [y], or [x or y] each as one.
If the gods specifically counted each colour separately, as opposed to both being one and the same, Nightveil Specter would make Phenax, God of Deception a creature, but such is not the case. They don't care about the individual numbers of each colour, only about the total number that are either one or both.
If I had a Dominus of Fealty in play, I would have enough devotion to make both Thassa, God of the Sea and Purphoros, God of the Forge creatures, because they both check their devotion separately. Thassa says to the Dominus: How many blue mana symbols do you have? Dominus says 5, making the total to be 6, so Thassa is a creature. Separately, Purphuros asks how many red symbols the Dominus has. Again, the answer is 5, making Purphuros a creature.
So, if I had Nightveil Specter and Phenax, God of Deception on the field, Phenax would ask the Specter how many symbols he has of [x or y], being black or blue. The Specter would answer three, and so Phenax would not have enough devotion to be a creature. If then you play a Duskmantle Guildmage , you would add two more yesses to the [x or y] question, making Phenax a creature.
I'll just say, I had several good laughs while reading this page (yes, I read it all. I loved the marbles analogy). If this comment doesn't help clarify things, I dont know what will, and at least I had fun writing it :)
February 19, 2014 11:28 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #64
The previously quoted version of 700.5 doesn't explain "devotion to C and D" because it's an outdated version of the rule. The Comprehensive Rules document was updated on February 1, 2014 to account for the new mechanics and rules concepts introduced with Born of the Gods, and rule 700.5 has been edited accordingly. Hybrid symbols only count as 1 for the purposes of devotion.
700.5. A player's devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls. A player's devotion to [color 1] and [color 2] is equal to the number of mana symbols among the mana costs of permanents that player controls that are [color 1], [color 2], or both colors.
Notice the use of the word "or" in the description of "devotion to C and D".
February 20, 2014 12:16 a.m.
greensaleen says... #65
There a rules clarification os being made so it was ambiguous to a single color. Now they have made it clear that the separate colors are counted separately.
February 20, 2014 7:29 a.m.
If by "Now" you mean days before you ever even entered into this thread, sure.
February 20, 2014 7:32 a.m.
And more to the point, this was not a -clarification- like they went "Oh, the rule is super confusing, we need to change it."
They added a new mechanic, explained how it worked in ALL of the release material and FAQs around the set (which anybody who considers themselves even baseline competent at the game should be reading when sets come out) and then the next time there was an update to the comprehensive rules, they were changed to reflect the new mechanic.
Nothing in the fact that the comprehensive rules were changed when a new thing was added to the fame acts in support of a theory that this was "confusing"
ANYBODY who read the rules info for the set containing demi-gods had it explicitly spelled out to them, and then the rules were changed to reflect new mechanics. That's what always happens.
February 20, 2014 7:36 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #68
The current text of the rule existed weeks ago. The only confusion going on around here was caused by the repeated posting of an outdated version of the rule. Advice to everyone involved: if you're going to quote rules in a discussion like this, make sure you have the most recent revision, especially in the wake of a new set being printed.
runelord says... #1
it can be either, or a combination of both
February 19, 2014 12:08 a.m.