Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Curse of Death's Hold for infinite Undying?
Asked by Ehlionney 13 years ago
I'm thinking of scrapping my zombie deck and rebuilding it from the ground up. During the process, I started thinking about how I could put Mikaeus, the Unhallowed to best use.
If I use only zombies that have more than 1/1, and pull both Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Curse of Death's Hold could I play the curse on turn 5 on myself, then turn 6 play Mikaeus and have infinite Undying effects?
If this does work, does anyone know if I would be able to throw Witchbane Orb on myself on Turn 4 (right before I curse myself) to prevent my opponents from directly milling or burning me, to lock them into trying to fight my zombie horde? It only removes the curses when it enters the field, and hexproof still allows me to play effects on myself, so it seems like this would work.
If I build my deck to take advantage of a lot of "on-death" effects like Blistergrub (just the first example I thought of) I think this could be pretty powerful.
Oh, and now that I think of it, the first Curse of Death's Hold would only serve to allow me to use Undying in the first place, by canceling out his Lord aura; I would need to use a second Curse of Death's Hold to activate the infinite Undying. Creatures would be at -1/-1 when I first summon them, but it wouldn't matter because if they DO die, then they come right back at normal stats (they get a +1/+1 from Undying, which cancels out the Curse's -1/-1) and then from then on it would be permanently like that.
The only real counter would be for the opponent to put buffs on my guys and then take them out, try to snipe the Curses off of me, take out Mikaeus, trample me to death, swarm to the point where I can't block them all, or try to mill or burn me indirectly. Unblockable damage would do the trick too.
March 20, 2012 8:58 a.m.
toastymcslugnugget says... #3
Undying functions by placing +1/+1 "counters" (this is the keyword here) but the curse is just a static -1/-1, not in the form of counters. -1/-1 Counters being placed on a creature with +1/+1 counters would cancel out, but I don't believe they cancel the static effect from the curse.
My answer to this is no. But we can see what others think. I'm not sure where I'd find official ruling for this and how to translate it.
March 20, 2012 9 a.m.
OmegaSerris says... #4
Curse of Death's Hold (or any other -1/-1 effect) does NOT negate +1/+1 counters in any way except the function value of the creature in question. The counter is still on the creature, so the Undying ability will still see it.
So to get the effect you are looking for, you need a card to toss -1/-1 counters on your creatures. Black Sun's Zenith is in Standard right now, along with a few other cards in SOM block like Grim Affliction.
If you want to go out of Standard, look into Shadowmoor and Eventide. Persist is an excellent ability to combine with Undying, since you can pick which one to use, the creature will always come back. Blowfly Infestation will let you chain a few Undying creatures together if you can start the counters flying.
March 20, 2012 9:04 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #5
Note that if you have a young wolf with a +1/+1 counter on it, and you do a Black Sun's Zenith where X = 2 or more, then the wolf will die with both a +1/+1 counter and multiple -1/-1 counters on it and will not trigger undying.
March 20, 2012 9:11 a.m.
OmegaSerris and GoblinsInc are correct. Here are some relevant rules:
702.91a Undying is a triggered ability. "Undying" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it."
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
March 20, 2012 9:15 a.m.
OmegaSerris says... #7
Yeah, sorry. I should have mentioned that (I need to stop answering these when I'm half asleep :-P). As GoblinsInc mentioned, if you place enough -1/-1 counters (all at once) on a creature with a +1/+1 counter to kill it, they won't cancel out before it dies and Undying will see the +1/+1 counter preventing it from returning.
So if you are going down that route, you should keep that in mind with things like Skinrender and Black Sun's Zenith as well as when you are blocking/being blocked by Infect/Wither creatures.
Also, rereading your response, it seems you may think that the +1/+1 from Mikaeus (the 'Lord effect') cancels the Undying he grants. Again, these static effects (either positive or negative) don't count as 'Counters' and so they don't interact with them nor any effect that looks for them. You don't need to negate Mikaeus's boost to get Undying online.
March 20, 2012 9:22 a.m.
Thanks, I didn't realize there was a difference between static effects that affect +/- and actual counters, I just looked at the end result of where the creatures' power and toughness ended up.
March 20, 2012 9:47 a.m.
Thanks, I didn't realize there was a difference between static effects that affect +/- and actual counters, I just looked at the end result of where the creatures' power and toughness ended up.
March 20, 2012 9:47 a.m.
tappedout1234 says... #10
This question doesn't really make sense... I'm pretty sure this is not possible, but could you describe specifically what you're trying to do?
Oh, and why wouldn't you just use Heartless Summoning?
March 20, 2012 10:23 a.m.
@tappedout1234: I was trying to do something that would cancel out the + 1/+ 1 counters on my creatures when they came back with undying so that they would never be able to die. Apparently Heartless Summoning won't work either because it still doesn't count as counters. However, if it did work, that would be a great card to use instead, I just wasn't aware of it.
March 20, 2012 11:05 a.m.
The problem with any of the cards that put counters on everything is that they would also put counters on Mikaeus and any guys that didn't already need them at the time, and ones that would let me target the creature specifically won't be able to cover as many as I would need. Either way, they would all need to be cast repeatedly, and I would eventually run out of casts.
The idea behind this was to have infinite recovery of my creatures so that I could sit there and build my army up turn after turn; even big guys like Blightsteel Colossus wouldn't be a threat if this worked as I thought it would, because I could just block with multiple creatures to soak it up and have them back right after they died.
I think Blowfly Infestation is the closest to what I am looking for, but still not.
I might try out the Persist mechanic as suggested, though, and bounce them back and forth. Cauldron of Souls looks like it might be able to do the trick; each turn during main phase, tap it while targeting each creature that has a +1/+1 counter. If they happen to die that turn, they Persist. Any with Persist that die will have -1/-1 counters on them but no +1/+1, so Undying occurs, cycle repeats.
Any flaws with that idea?
March 20, 2012 6:30 p.m.
hunter9000 says... #13
Persist creatures work amazingly well with Mikaeus. Also things like Tatterkite, Grim Poppet, Cinderhaze Wretch, Chainbreaker, Workhorse and of course Triskelion.
Pair those with sac outlets and you have some nasty combo possibilities. Viscera Seer, Phyrexian Altar, Blasting Station and Phyrexian Plaguelord are particularly useful. I built an EDH deck around these combos, it's Mikaeus, the Unhallowed EDH.
March 20, 2012 7:25 p.m.
hunter9000 says... #14
And of course it makes Evoke even better, Mournwhelk becomes a 5/5 for 4 with 4 free discards, and Shriekmaw becomes a 5/4 for 2 with 2 free Terrors.
March 20, 2012 7:28 p.m.
Another standard option to remove counters could be Hex Parasite, it can not only help the engine, but it can also provide a way to kill off planeswalkers.
toastymcslugnugget says... #1
I do not believe that works as Curse of Death's Hold
are only static -1/-1 effects and not COUNTERS as Undying functions.
March 20, 2012 8:56 a.m.