Lutri's Mechanics
Asked by 9-lives 2 years ago
Does Lutri, the Spellchaser have to have a instant or sorcery casted in order for it to be copied? Can a copy be copied without casting it? Like Grapeshot ? If so, couldn't I use any copy effect, and then use Lutri, the Spellchaser in order to make infinite copies?
Are these combos true with Lutri on the field?
Show of Confidence is a one card infinite combo.
Doublecast and Teach by Example used on each other with another card with Lutri is an infinite combo.
Release to the Wind is a one card infinite combo.
Mentor's Guidance is a one card infinite combo.
July 5, 2021 11:03 a.m.
Just to clear up a few other possible confusions, let's talk about what casting spells means.
To start with, spells only exist in one place: the stack. An instant or sorcery or creature in your hand is an instant, sorcery, or creature card. When you cast it, it becomes an instant, sorcery, or creature spell. At this point (not before) it can be affected by things that copy, counter, etc. spells. Once a spell resolves, it goes to the battlefield (if it's a permanent spell) and becomes a permanent, or to the graveyard if it's an instant or sorcery and becomes an instant or sorcery card again.
So to clear up one other possible confusion, you can't play Lutri, the Spellchaser and copy an instant or sorcery card in your hand that you haven't cast. You can copy any instant or sorcery spell on the stack, regardless of whether it's a card or a copy.
You can also set up an infinite loop if you do it right, but it's a standard copy loop and Lutri only kicks it off. You need three things: an instant or sorcery, an instant or sorcery that copies it, and Lutri or something similar ( Ral, Storm Conduit etc) to copy the copy spell. You put the new copy on the stack copying the original copy spell, so it resolves to create another copy you can also target on the original as many times as you like. However, you don't generally increase the number of copies you make (when you end the loop, you still only copy your original spell twice), so you need something else (like Ral, Storm Conduit's triggered ability, Kalamax, the Stormsire 's second ability, or Twinning Staff ) to get any value from the infinite loop.
Of the examples you gave here, only the second one works, and it works without Lutri's help as described above. The first and last examples don't work because copies made by Lutri aren't "cast" and because the triggered ability only happens once. Release to the Wind doesn't work because by the time you can cast Lutri again, Release to the Wind is done resolving and has gone to your graveyard.
July 5, 2021 11:35 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Lutri doesn't really affect anything if he is already on the battlefield. He must enter the battlefield to trigger his ETB.
Show of Confidence and Mentor's Guidance make copies of themselves, but these copies are not cast. They are not one card combos by themselves. The only thing Lutri can do is make 1 additional copy.
Doublecast and Teach by Example copy the next card cast. Casting one and then the other will copy the second one cast (the copies still are not cast) Making the NEXT instant/sorcery get copied twice. Lutri can copy either of the spells, allowing for the next instant/sorcery cast after the two copy spells to be copied a total of three times.
If you cast Release to the Wind targeting a different creature and then cast Lutri you will be able to infinitely exile and then cast Lutri. You will need a third piece to generate advantage from this interaction.
July 5, 2021 11:36 a.m.
I'm talking about Lutri as a companion. Wouldn't Mentor's Guidance copy to make 4 of them? That would be a great drawing engine. And would Show of Confidence and Beamsplitter Mage work infinitely?
July 5, 2021 12:01 p.m.
Mentor's Guidance wouldn't copy that much. It makes a copy when you cast it, and only once. If you have one of the requisite creatures, you'll make a copy of Mentor's Guidance when you cast it. Then you can cast Lutri and make another copy of it, but neither of the copies will re-copy for having the right creature out. You'll just end up with three copies.
Beamsplitter Mage + Show of Confidence won't work quite how you're thinking either. Again, it's a "when you cast" trigger, so it'll only make copies once. Again, copying a spell isn't the same thing as casting a spell, so if Show of Confidence were your second instant/sorcerey spell, you'd cast it targeting Beamsplitter Mage, copy it from its cast ability, copy it with Beamsplitter Mage, and end up with three copies of the spell. Even if you targeted the copy from its cast ability on Beamsplitter Mage, it wouldn't trigger the Mage again because you didn't cast a spell targeting it.
The main thing to keep in mind is this: copies aren't cast, unless the effect explicitly says "you may cast the copy." Copies of Mentor's Guidance and Show of Confidence will only trigger to make copies when you cast them, not when you copy them (otherwise they'd just go infinite by themselves).
July 5, 2021 12:10 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
Lutri as a companion doesn't change anything except for the fact he won't take up a slot and you need to pay to put him in your hand.
Lutri makes a single copy so assuming you have something to trigger the innate copy, you will get a total of three.
Beamsplitter Mage will make a single extra copy of any spell that targets him. He will not go infinite with any other you have listed in this thread.
July 5, 2021 12:16 p.m.
Would this work as a Lutri companion combo?
Mavinda, Students' Advocate can be used with any copied instant when that instant is put into the graveyard and cast again for 0; this can be used with Show of Confidence
July 5, 2021 12:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
It is unclear what you are wanting to do. Mavinda will cast a spell a single time and then that card will be exiled when it resolves.
July 5, 2021 12:45 p.m.
Just the usual suspects. You can make an infinite loop by copying a copy spell (though this will usually run you 7+ mana), which you can take advantage of with prowess, magecraft, Ral, Storm Conduit and anything else that triggers when you "cast or copy" a spell.
The other usual suspects are things that have prohibitive costs and two is better than one (i.e. Emergent Ultimatum and the like) and things that have additional non-mana costs, like Fling , Neoform , or Channeled Force . Discarding three cards to Channeled Force and copying it with Lutri deals 3 damage to two targets and draws you six cards. Harrow and Thrill of Possibility also do nice things in this vein.
As far as the Mavinda combo, it's not as good as you're thinking. Mavinda doesn't let you cast the spell for free—you still need to pay its costs to cast it. Again, all Lutri does if you cast it there is get you one extra copy of whatever spell you're re-casting.
July 5, 2021 12:52 p.m.
I did want to circle back to an earlier combo: Lutri, the Spellchaser + Release to the Wind . This does work if you target something with Release , then cast Lutri copying it and changing the target to himself. The copy will resolve, exiling Lutri at which point you immediately recast him for free and repeat the process. This doesn't really accomplish anything by itself, but it triggers magecraft (as you're copying an instant) and abilities that look for a creature entering . It also triggers abilities that look for casting a creature or a creature being exiled .
July 5, 2021 5:25 p.m.
Neotrup does this combo Lutri, the Spellchaser + Release to the Wind work if Lutri is already my companion?
July 5, 2021 8:03 p.m.
Wouldn't with Lutri as companion with Double Vision and Doublecast card make infinite copies? Like if I had Doublecast and Lightning Helix wouldn't it make a copy of lightning helix, then copy both of those, then copy the Doublecast then copy the copied Lightning Helix ad infinitum? Or is this a problem with stack priority? I don't know how the stack works in copying cards.
July 5, 2021 8:28 p.m.
Even without Double Vision wouldn't this combo work since Lutri copies each and every spell that is copied?
July 5, 2021 8:35 p.m.
Ooops nevermind. i see the problem with casting doublecast over and over again. If it doesn't have a self-copying mechanism, or another similar doublecast, then it wouldn't copy more than once.
July 5, 2021 8:46 p.m.
Would Thousand-Year Storm work well? I think it is one of my best bets in making an infinite combo.
July 5, 2021 8:47 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
Lutri copies a single spell when he enters. All the companion ability does is allow you to keep him outside the game and put him into your hand at sorcery speed from outside the game for .
Maybe it would be better to ask what you think Lutri does at this point. So, how do you think Lutri functions?
July 5, 2021 8:56 p.m.
Each instant and sorcery spells are copied when Lutri is companion. And it doesn't say a single spell on its rules or anything.
July 5, 2021 9:02 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #20
When Lutri is companion you keep him outside the game and put him into your hand at sorcery speed from outside the game for . That is all the companion ability does.
Lutri then also has an ETB ability. When Lutri enters the battlefield he copies target instant or sorcery spell you control. He will only copy the spell if he was cast, so no blink shenanigans.
The fact that he will only copy a single spell is based on the fact that it is a triggered ability. You can only copy a spell when he enters the battlefield and only if he was cast.
July 5, 2021 9:17 p.m.
Gidgetimer then what the heck is the point of having companions anyways? All of them say ETB 'such and such effect'. If that were true, there would be no point in having a companion. Obviously, the point to having the companion is that its ETB effect is made each turn. Otherwise I would just use him without him being a companion.
July 6, 2021 7:25 a.m.
Companion is a mechanic that allows you to access an extra card at the cost of 3 mana and restricting your deck building. When originally printed you did not have to pay the extra 3 mana, and the effect of having access to an extra card, especially a known card rather than a random one, was so powerful that wizards had to implement bans and the rule change to pay 3 mana.
You do not get the enter the battlefield effect each turn, and not all companions even have an enter the battlefield ability (such as Jegantha, the Wellspring , a popular companion in modern Tron).
Even of you did get Lutri, the Spellchaser ETB each turn, it would only copy a spell, it wouldn't copy the cast triggers of the spell, which is important for your infinite combos. The Release to the Wind combo I described has you copying the spell, but not casting it so Double Vision and Thousand-Year Storm don't trigger. I did link several cards that do work off the combo, and ones templates the same way would also work.
July 6, 2021 7:44 a.m.
Then what the hell is the point of having a companion if its ability only triggers once? Paying 3 mana, then keeping it on the battlefield until the end of the game seems pointless.
July 6, 2021 9 a.m.
The point is effectively starting with an eight card hand, one of which is a known card you can build your strategy around, similar to the point of the Commander, Oathbreaker, and Brawl formats, but playable in any format.
July 6, 2021 9:38 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #25
Here are the entire comprehensive rules on companion:
702.139. Companion
702.139a Companion is a keyword ability that functions outside the game. It’s written as “Companion—[Condition].” Before the game begins, you may reveal one card you own from outside the game with a companion ability whose condition is fulfilled by your starting deck. (See rule 103.2b.) Once during the game, any time you have priority and the stack is empty, but only during a main phase of your turn, you may pay {3} and put that card into your hand. This is a special action that doesn’t use the stack (see rule 116.2g). This is a change from previous rules.
702.139b If a companion ability refers to your starting deck, it refers to your deck after you’ve set aside any sideboard cards. In a Commander game, this is also before you’ve set aside your commander.
702.139c Once you take the special action and put the card with companion into your hand, it remains in the game until the game ends.
The point of the ability originally was to give access to a creature as an extra card in hand with the downside of deck building restrictions. Enough decks could include a companion without changing their deck at all that WotC changed it so that you had to pay and put it in your hand to cast it instead of casting it from outside the game. Now it is a thing that some decks will do and a reasonably balanced mechanic.
July 6, 2021 5:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer that has no reference to how to use the card's mechanic of ETB or whatever its ability is. I've searched the internet for an answer to this, and can't find anything.
July 7, 2021 6:57 a.m.
You use the enter the battlefield ability when the creature enters the battlefield, just like every other permanent. The fact the referenced companion rules do not state any modification indicates that being a companion does not change how it works. Being a companion just allows you to add it to your hand so you have more control over when you cast it as you don't need to draw it.
July 7, 2021 7:45 a.m.
The companion rule just lets you pull Lutri into your hand from outside the game if you've built your deck a certain way (for Lutri, not repeating cards other than basic lands). Apart from that one rule, it's a standard legendary creature and works similarly to other spell copy creatures such as Dualcaster Mage . When you cast and resolve Lutri, its ETB ability triggers targeting a spell and then copies that spell.
The point of the companion mechanic is that you basically start with an invisible 3 mana sorcery in your hand that reads, "Draw Lutri, the Spellchaser ." (This is the nerfed version, because it turned out that basically having your companion in your hand but it couldn't be discarded was too strong for tournaments).
July 7, 2021 10:31 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #29
9-lives: Lutri's ETB ability follows the standard rules of the game. If you want an example of a "normal" card that does this, see Dualcaster Mage as a reference. When Lutri enters the battlefield, you can make a copy of an instant or sorcery spell currently on the stack. You're allowed to target a copy of an instant/sorcery made by some other effect, like Twincast , Isochron Scepter , or a Storm effect. The copy doesn't count as being "cast" for effects that care about such things.
The current version of the Companion ability (it had to be changed from the original version for power reasons) allows you to put the card into your hand when you're ready for it instead of having to wait to draw it naturally. This is an advantage because you can use the card more on your own terms instead of having to leave the timing up to chance.
July 7, 2021 10:36 a.m.
9-lives - Normally, when there have been no follow-up questions for a few days, as is the case here, I would mark an answer and remind you to do the same moving forward. However, given that you have had numerous follow-up questions I am reluctant to close this thread.
At this time, there does not appear to be any outstanding and unanswered follow-up questions--but each of your follow-up questions thus far indicates you have some misunderstandings about very basic elements of this game, so I wanted to ask and make sure you understood all the answers that have been presented before designating the thread answered.
If you do not have any follow-up questions, please mark an answer so this thread can be considered resolved. Otherwise, please feel free to post your next round of questions. Once you have no more follow-ups, be sure to remember to choose mark an answer.
July 9, 2021 11:57 a.m.
9-lives - it appears you had marked my above post as the accepted answer, even though it contained no actual rules discussion. One of the additional functions of Rules Q&A is the fact card pages link to questions involving those cards--if you go to the page for Lutri, the Spellchaser , you will see this thread is linked on under a "Rules Q&A" column. This feature allows other users to quickly see if their question about a card has already been asked and answered.
To ensure future individuals who might find this thread can quickly identify the answer, I have marked a new accepted answer that resolves the questions you posted in your original post.
Neotrup says... #1
Lutri, the Spellchaser copies and instant or sorcery spell you control. Typically this will be one you cast, but you are allowed to copy a copy instead. As the original spell most likely is still on the stack, there's not much practical upside to copying a copy instead of the original though. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the "if so" question, but assuming you're talking about using Lutri to copy something like Fated Infatuation , no, this does not go infinite. The reason is Lutri 's enter the battlefield ability only triggers if it was cast.
July 5, 2021 10:42 a.m.