Aetherspouts...hmmmm?
Standard forum
Posted on July 15, 2014, 2:13 p.m. by capriom85
What do you all think f this card? Clearly it is not expected to be an all star with the $1.36 price tag it has, but I think it will make non UW forms of control more viable. UR, UB, & UG all benefit from this card in huge ways I think. It isn't a Supreme Verdict by any means, but it does clear the opponent's board for 5cmc (assuming he launches an all out attack), and messes up the next few turns for him/her. I like it for UG especially because I can play a large threat like Kalonian Hydra , pass, untap with Prophet of Kruphix , thwart their attack with AetherSpouts , and drop a large Mistcutter Hydra on my turn to swing for what may very well be lethal at this point in the game.
UR and UB have similar benefits I think...bounce their creatures and then pick them off one by one with spot removal as they come back out.
Also, all of these decks benefit since the creatures need to be recast, and maybe you have more answers the second time around. Just counter them out now.
Anyone agree that this card has possibilities for Standard?
GoldGhost012 says... #3
I'll be using it, either as an AEtherize or Cyclonic Rift replacement.
July 15, 2014 2:17 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #4
ChiefBell, it's not to hand, it's back into their library.
July 15, 2014 2:18 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #6
Well, I honestly won't be caring since I'll be shredding their library. It's a permanent way to get rid of my archnemesis Mistcutter Hydra .
July 15, 2014 2:21 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #7
AetherSpouts is basically an AEtherize that generates card advantage. Seeing as how AEtherize saw a limited amount of play in control decks, I would estimate AetherSpouts becoming a 2-3 of in most control or midrange decks. I'd honestly be surprised if it's ignored OR if it's a necessary 4 of for any blue deck, but I definitely think it's gonna be more than $1.36 by rotation, if not sooner. Maybe around $5ish eventually.
July 15, 2014 2:22 p.m.
Vapor Snag is 2-for-1-ing yourself, but I don't see anybody complaining about it.
July 15, 2014 2:47 p.m.
It's not really 2 for 1 everytime. It's mass return so it's conditionally better than some things in a format with no GOOD wrath yet
July 15, 2014 2:52 p.m.
Dalektable says... #10
It's very good, it's what control needed post rotation. Pro Tip: Play this and then on your turn play Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and exile the cards they just put on top of their library. However, for this standard, It's not good enough.
July 15, 2014 3:44 p.m.
Making the "2-for-1 yourself" argument is a bit silly, because that's all a tempo deck is. Delver decks just sit and 2-for-1 themselves all day long, but they win because they sacrifice overall value to be able to control the board each turn, no matter what the opponent does.
Also, Force of Will is a 2-for-1 on yourself, but I don't see any qualms.
July 15, 2014 4:25 p.m.
2 for 1 situations only get praised when they carry a $70+ price tag
July 15, 2014 4:43 p.m.
zandl - 2-for-1 is fine if your net spend is like 3 mana or something but not if it's like 7. There's a difference between Vapor Snag into Mana Leak and AetherSpouts into Essence Scatter . One is a pretty fair use of resources, the other is going to struggle to be economical.
July 15, 2014 4:55 p.m.
You can't strictly look at numbers, though. You need to consider the time you've bought when trying to sum up the value of AetherSpouts .
If your opponent is attacking with 3 creatures, he/she will need at least 3 turns to see that stuff again. And if you've been playing tempo in the turns prior, your opponent probably doesn't have much going on.
Imagine using this on turn-5, clearing the board, and untapping into Elspeth. That's exactly what tempo wants to do and is also why this card will see some play.
July 15, 2014 5:04 p.m.
That seems pretty legit and I guess it's the best that standard has..... it's just a bit pale compared to modern I guess. There will probably be another 4 or 5 mana board clear printed that's almost strictly better.
July 15, 2014 5:07 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #16
The problem with AetherSpouts is that it assumes your opponent will be retarded. You shouldn't be swinging with everyone if it isn't safe. Ever.
July 15, 2014 5:10 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #17
Either way though, if your midrange or aggro opponent is holding back from bashing your face in the card is doing it's job.
Minimally, It seems like it could influence decision making. That's a good thing for blue's arsenal. Mono-blue for that matter.
July 15, 2014 5:18 p.m.
"You shouldn't be swinging with everyone if it isn't safe. Ever."
Have you even played Magic? It's Standard, your opponent has nothing on the board but 5 untapped lands, and you aren't going to attack with everything?
lmao
July 15, 2014 5:32 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #19
It sounds like someones afraid of getting their chook slapped.
July 15, 2014 5:34 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #20
It really wants to be a Cyclonic Rift or Supreme Verdict ...But it aint awful.
July 15, 2014 6:12 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #21
@zandl I wish I could count on 1 hand the amount of times I've been Quicken + Supreme Verdict on turn 5 in the last 6 months at my LGS. Against control, no, you shouldn't be swinging with everyone.
July 15, 2014 8:09 p.m.
"I wish I could count on 1 hand the amount of times I've been Quicken + Supreme Verdict on turn 5 in the last 6 months at my LGS. Against control, no, you shouldn't be swinging with everyone."
Your logic = don't attack, leading to (a) still getting hit by Verdict anyways or (b) let the opponent hit you with Verdict harder on the following turn.
What you said really makes no sense. Elaborate?
July 15, 2014 8:41 p.m.
So, why has no one mentioned Bident of Thassa ? I force your attack into AetherSpouts and then attack into an open board and net some card draw off the bident. Yea...I think this one will be ok for a while.
July 16, 2014 7:34 a.m.
It's 7 mana and rather sotuational. It wouldn't be impossible for MBD with Nykthos (or late-game) but it feels a bit win-more.
July 16, 2014 12:16 p.m.
Naw...it's not win more at all. From my POV at least, playing GU devotion I should be able to play a guy on my turn, pass and untapped with Prophet of Kruphix and force the attack and mass return. They pass or play something. I throw down a mother creature and enjoy a nice attack with card draw. Pass and untapped with Prophet again. It's less situational than some things that are heavily played.
July 16, 2014 12:21 p.m.
In decks like those, though, you really just need free turn to smash in for damage and win the game. Cyclonic Rift seems better to me as you don't need to rely on another card.
July 16, 2014 12:23 p.m.
Cyclonic Rift is so much better than AetherSpouts !!! Agree all day long, but I am looking to post rotation. Spouts is more situational, so I am saying post rotation I will be using the Bident to create the situation and then in effect have the loaded Rift for the same CMC with a little better advantage from them going to the library.
July 16, 2014 12:46 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #29
This card does not set you up to be 2-for-1'd since the cards go back to the deck- that would be like saying that Azorius Charm sets up a 2-for-1.
In fact, your opponent will be 2-for-1'd or perhaps more. This card is extremely powerful and will at least see sideboard play in Standard.
July 16, 2014 4:41 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin - A two for one occurs when you use two cards to permanently remove one of your opponents. Playing this card or Azorius Charm is a 0-for-1. If you then counter the creature that you sent back it's a two-for-one. Sending back to hand or library is NOT a permanent answer. Remember that magic is a game resources. The number of answers you have is a resource. If you use your answers twice as quickly as they produce threats - you will lose. This is why you typically only use Cyclonic Rift and AetherSpouts when you're about to swing for the win anyway - otherwise it essentially does nothing for you. You really need to time it right. On the other hand Supreme Verdict is usually like a 1-for-4 etc which is why it's so great.
They will print more viable board clear and this won't be played.
July 16, 2014 6:59 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #31
I doubt that this won't be played somewhere, anywhere. It may not be a Tier 1 competitive boardwipe, and honestly I'm not expecting it to become the next Supreme Verdict , but I would be shocked if this wasn't scattered around FNMs, especially in mono-blue and control decks. It's good as a Cyclonic Rift replacement for what we have right now to pass up for those decks that need boardwipes.
Spikes say it's underwhelming. Johnnys say it has potential. Timmys hate this card cause it messes with their Mistcutter Hydra and Terra Stomper gigs.
July 16, 2014 7:19 p.m.
It will see scattered play. Coming from a Spike: it's useless. But it fits in somewhere
July 16, 2014 7:20 p.m.
I want to go on record stating that Spikes will be suing this card. I'm not saying it will become a staple, but there will be top 8 decks that run it once Cyclonic Rift and Supreme Verdict go away. I doubt we will see another board wipe that does what Verdict does during Khans. And also, for the record, I did imply that this was a use before an alpha strike card. I never said it permanently answers anything...although swinging for lethal is a permanent answer to ALL of your threats.
July 16, 2014 10:17 p.m.
Dalektable says... #34
As a johnny-spike, I approve. We have nothing better so far for post rotation, and I believe it has potential.
July 16, 2014 10:49 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #35
ChiefBell: Sending creatures to the top (or bottom) of the library is different than bouncing to the hand, and it is what makes this card a 2-or-more-for-1 in your favor. If the opponent chooses to put a creature on top, they are essentially losing out on the draw they would have otherwise made in order to get that card back in hand, while you get the chance to draw a new card. If they put it on bottom, it might as well be in the graveyard for all intents and purposes. A good contrast would be with AEtherize , which is a true 0-for-1 since it only bounces to the hand.
July 17, 2014 5:16 p.m.
Sending to the top of the library isn't a permanent answer to a threat, even if they do miss out on a draw!
July 17, 2014 6:59 p.m.
Tempo decks don't need permanent answers. All they need to do is trip you up long enough to win.
July 17, 2014 9:09 p.m.
Once again, let.me explain....I will be playing UG so when I play a big guy on my turn, untapped with Prophet, then drop a huge mistcutter and swing AetherSpouts just won me the game. That's all I'm saying
July 17, 2014 10:24 p.m.
AetherSpouts isn't card disadvantage at all...it's nothing but card advantage. You're undoing your opponent's previous draw steps. You're also limiting their outs. Casting AetherSpouts when you have an active Elspeth, Sun's Champion or other large threat means your opponent isn't going to be drawing Hero's Downfall .
This card is just a slightly weaker (albeit more fair) version of Terminus .
July 18, 2014 12:14 a.m.
@chiefbell - They have to redraw and recast the creature. More than one if they put multiple creatures on top. It is card advantage. Instead of drawing a new card they have to wait a turn or two just to get back to the same point they were at before aetherspouts. They also have to recast their threats.
Eliminating a new draw for each creature they want to keep is huge.
I'd also add that tokens disappear.
July 18, 2014 5:05 p.m.
It's card disadvantage in one sense and advantage in another. Like many tempo plays. Still for 5 mana it's really lame.
Like. You put them a draw behind but them have to use more cards to permanently answer the threat.
Pros and cons.
July 18, 2014 5:48 p.m.
Also the opponent gets to choose where the card goes which is relevant given the prevalence of scry and how they can make an educated judgement about whether they want to replay the card or chuck it.
July 18, 2014 5:54 p.m.
@ChiefBell: If they have Stormbreath Dragon on top of their library, are you really going to view AetherSpouts as card disadvantage? You're making them lose entire draw steps. Anything they chuck to the bottom is as if you Condemn 'd them or casted Terminus . Anything on top is another draw step gone. If they put something on top, then scry'd it away, that's a serious misplay considering they have to have the scry card in their hand (where they know ahead if they want to scry).
If a creature read: "As an additional cost to CARDNAME, skip your next draw step," it'd be card disadvantage. AetherSpouts adds that to each attacking creature, on top of them spending the mana again.
The only issue with AetherSpouts is the mana cost. It's a turn behind Supreme Verdict and most aggro decks can kill you by turn four if you spent too much time durdling.
July 19, 2014 3:59 a.m.
We need to sit down and actually get real here when we think about this card.
What this actually is at the most basic level is a 5 mana tempo play. A card that doesn't actually answer anything permanently, it merely makes it go away for a while. I would much rather pay 1 or 2 mana for a targeted version of this than 5 mana for somethign that it does it to all attacking creatures. That's very specific and in my view weaker, given that many creatures might be used for abilities and not for attacking. By the way Aetherspouts allows the opponent to choose where the creature goes which is absolutely awful because it allows the opponent to minimise the damage according to their tastes.
What you can't claim about this card is that it ruins draws - given that you don't know what the opponent is about to draw that's an unsafe assumption. You can't say 'yeh but what about if they have Emrakul on top!!!!!!' because that's an absolutely ridiculous point to make given that you can never willingly, knowingly use this card in that way. Ruining a draw is an extremely weak form of card advantage because you're not denying anything, you're just making it come a turn later. A real advantage comes when a single card of your answers multiple of theirs or vice versa. Stopping a single card from appearing on time is only ever relevant if you're going to win in that instant. Tempo plays deny resources for a turn, stronger plays remove them entirely. Tempo plays are mostly seen in decks that aim to win quickly because it is NOT an effective long term strategy. Look at delver decks - they're a mixture of aggro and tempo. They want to win fast or they will lose.
July 20, 2014 11:45 a.m.
AetherSpouts , ChiefBell, is the best option to open a board for a swing when your opponent swings into you hoping for a trade when Cyclonic Rift goes away. Also, delaying things for a turn...oh wait, maybe 2, or, 3, or 4. Depends on how many creatures go on top of the library. Maybe ruining the immediate board state was all you needed. Equal board state to lousy board state equals shift of power. The less cards the opponent has in hand the strongest get AetherSpouts gets. This card has a place in standard, and it's weak to say it doesn't because it isn't removal.
July 20, 2014 12:04 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #47
I completely understand and agree with ChiefBell. Same reason Unravel the Aether was such a mediocre response to Thassa for green decks.
July 20, 2014 12:04 p.m.
capriom85: you said: 'depends on how many creature they put on top'; which they choose.
'Maybe ruining the immediate board state was all you needed'; yes in a tempo deck. Unlikely in a control deck.
'Equal board state to lousy board state equals shift of power'; only if you can guarantee it'll stay that way.
This is only to be used in very specific cases! It has very little breathing room in standard because its not suitable in a lot of cases.
July 20, 2014 12:37 p.m.
Ok, so now the argument is it sucks bc it's no good for Control. Weak
If you remove their creatures and guarantee only 1 can come back each turn I'd say it's pretty likely to stay that way.
Finally, you say it's not good all the time. So only cards that are good all the time will see play? Weak. Cards that are in sideboards are situational and some main deck cards are situational. The situation here is "will I be attacked"? I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say yes. Also...it's a permanent answer to tokens of any kind so it just got another situation to be good in. Never said this is a 4 of in every blue tier 1 deck just that is has potential. Your argument that it isn't on the top competitive level is negated by that fact
July 20, 2014 2:45 p.m.
I literally give no shit about what's run in t2 decks really. If it's not among t1 it's not worth running.
My point was that this has no home in control and should be played in tempo. That still doesn't negate the fact that it's too expensive and does too little for tempo. It's overall crap in both but has a more obvious slot in one of the two.
My argument is that this is a card that a lot of decks just don't care about. When you're talking about that level of specificity it is a real issue, not a non issue.
ChiefBell says... #2
So if you return them to hand and then pick them off with removal you're basically 2-for-1ing yourself. Great.
If it ever DID get popular people would stop swinging in with all their creatures anyway - which they shouldn't be doing when the opponent has mana open.
It's way too conditional.
July 15, 2014 2:16 p.m.