PSA: Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip is legitimately insane in Modern
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 2, 2015, 2:06 p.m. by Putrefy
In case you weren't aware.
And now we all cry in a little corner in a dark room, because we didn't buy the jaces when he was 5$.
hashtag shouldaboughtthosejaces
Feels like 2010 all over again >_>
He does jace-things. He's like a blue Dark Confidant that turns into a semi-Snapcaster Mage. That alone should be enough.
September 2, 2015 2:15 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #4
Sorry, but I'm not seeing it... He seems ok, but in no way insane. This is coming from a blue player, too.
The best part about him isn't necessarily his abilities, but really that he threatens to be a planeswalker if not dealt with. Even a weak 'walker can give minor card advantage, so it almost always demands some number of attack phases from the opponent.
September 2, 2015 2:38 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #5
Except Tibalt. Nobody ever attacks Tibalt because nobody cares if you kill yourself for them. Oh, you're activating Tibalt again? Sweet, I just got a free Hymn to Tourach.
September 2, 2015 2:41 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #6
TheAnnihilator If only his first ability wasn't "at random"...
September 2, 2015 2:56 p.m.
I remember so many people on here arguing with me...going on and on about how Jace is so horrible. Telling everyone who pulled one early to get rid of it before it loses it's hype value. Now he's seeing play in pretty much every format except vintage (and it probably is, I just haven't seen it). I know they'll never admit it (and would probably still argue he's unplayable), but you know they're sitting at home feeling completely stupid.
Guess that's what happens though when you immediately decide that every new card is garbage and unplayable outside of standard. You make dumb decisions and give out bad advice lol.
Now if only that modern deck with Evolutionary Leap in it would just get a little more popular. That would just be the icing on the cake for me against all those people who swore up and down that Jace and Evolutionary Leap would never see any play.
September 2, 2015 2:56 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #8
@Tibbles He'd be played all day if that were the case, despite his other lackluster abilities. I am a big fan of the card Faithless Looting. ;D
abenz419 I'm not saying that new Jace is "horrible" at all, nor am I writing him off. I actually think he's a fine card, and I know he has good application in some places. I just don't think his power level justifies the word "insane", nor will he be an auto-include. He certainly doesn't justify a $40 price tag.
Also, I have remained of the same opinion on him (roughly) since he was spoiled -- I won't play him, but he isn't necessarily a bad card. Though I was surprised how easy it is to flip him.
September 2, 2015 3:09 p.m.
@TheAnnihilator I wasn't referring to you specifically for saying he's not insane. I meant that literally there were dozens of people arguing with me that Jace is completely unplayable and that everyone should get rid of their copies before his hype value went down (literally their exact words). And, ever since they said that he's seen play in every format and has more than doubled in price because of the amount of play he is seeing.
It's so annoying seeing everyone go on and on about how horrible and unplayable every card is the second it's spoiled. So it cheers me up a little inside knowing that they really are as stupid as I initially thought. lol
September 2, 2015 3:37 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #10
Pretty sure he's just Jace, Standard's Prodigy. Maybe he's being played at the FNM level, but he has only made top 8 in large events twice since he's been released. Lack of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time severely limit his impact in Modern (and make him a monster in Standard). Unless a deck he is a major part of grows to be a large percentage of the Modern meta soon, expect him to drop once Delve leaves standard.
That is, of course, assuming he stays as a fringe 2-of in legacy. He could break out there and probably maintain a $15 tag post rotation, assuming he stays fringe in Modern.
September 2, 2015 3:44 p.m. Edited.
i think he will be a staple in grixis delve strategies in modern for awhile hes very good in those
September 2, 2015 3:48 p.m.
I feel like he is in the same situation that Courser of Kruphix was in. By this I mean he is in the honeymoon phase and everyone is trying him out.
September 2, 2015 3:53 p.m.
Umm... delve is counter-productive with Jace. When you delve you remove cards from your graveyard and Jace needs cards in your graveyard in order to flip. Also, once he's a walker, one of his abilities lets you cast an instant or sorcery from your graveyard. Something that becomes increasingly harder to do if your consistently delving your graveyard away. Plus, the decks he's currently seeing play in aren't delve based strategies so I really doubt delve strategies are a must in order for him to see play and delve leaving standard will not suddenly limit his usefulness.
Note: running a couple of Dig Through Time does not make your deck a delve based strategy. It just means you run a couple of cards with delve.
September 2, 2015 4:07 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #14
I guess I didn't look at standard decklists, only Modern/Legacy ones. If you could stop being so condescending, I'd appreciate it.
Anyway, I still stand by what I said about his use in modern. 2 top 8s does not mean that he is a modern staple, and deserving of his price tag. He will have to be incorporated into something like Twin to maintain this price outside of Standard
September 2, 2015 4:22 p.m.
He's really borderline. Seeing play in legacy/vintage because they can cycle through instants and sorceries so much faster than we can in modern. Seeing play in standard because the power level is lower. Modern is awkward. Higher power level than standard but fewer 1-2 mana cantrips than legacy/vintage to exploit. It moves him from a definitive 'this card is legit amazing' to 'this card could be really good but it's edgy'
September 2, 2015 5:13 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #16
"This card is 'insane' in modern"
*searching for any example of the card being insane in modern, finding none, am still not convinced that it is insane in modern.
Seems like a quality thread to me. I've seen this card tested in legacy where it did nothing but die every time it was cast, though it usually just sat in hand or on board as a dead card. In modern, I've seen it land a few times, bring back a bolt once, and a wrath once, and then die; pretty much a snapcaster that you need to wait two extra turns for. I've never seen it do any work either in person or via coverage, so please, enlighten us on how this is actually a good card instead of just babbling on about how right you were.
September 2, 2015 5:14 p.m. Edited.
I think that there is a reason he is not being played in modern, and its not that we're all stupid. I think it's that we don't have Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy, Ponder and Force of Will. This means we can't flip him as quickly in a control shell where he fits best, and let's make no mistake it is in a control shell that he fits best. As a result of this he ends up just sitting there as a creature where he does very little.
September 2, 2015 5:22 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #18
@ThatJunkMage Play nice! Also, Jace was used to good ends in Micheal Majors' Grixis Control list at the SCG Modern Open in Charlotte. (Top 8 performance.)
September 2, 2015 5:23 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #20
Ah the sweet music of blue mages self cannibalizing.
No but really i would give it some time before making definitive claims like this. If he continues to top 8 in the coming months after new cards arrive then I'll believe you
September 2, 2015 5:48 p.m.
It's not hard to flip Jace on turn 3 in standard (the first turn your typically able to activate his ability). So while having better cantrips in legacy does make it more playable there, you can't pretend that means it's definitively bad in modern, because standard easily has even worse cantrips. And like I said, it's not hard to flip him on your first opportunity in standard. Maybe Putrefy went a little out on a limb by saying insane (especially after saying legitimately), but that doesn't mean Jace isn't still great. Not every good card immediately blows up and becomes a staple the day it's released. It's shown there's more than potential there, don't be surprised when it starts to see more and more play especially after seeing a top 8.
@Unforgivn_II wasn't trying to be condesending. I was just stating facts. Delving cards from your graveyard will make it harder to flip Jace, along with making his abilities less useful. He also isn't currently seeing play in delve strategies (that's why I highly doubt his usefulness hinges on delve being in the format, standard or otherwise).
September 2, 2015 6:45 p.m.
slovakattack says... #22
Two things:
A: He was never five dollars. He was 30 dollars on release, and has only fluctuated between that and 40 since then.
B: The reason he's good atm is due to the prevalence of Delve in the format. This is also the reason why he's being used in Legacy at the moment. (Dig Through Time currently has Legacy by it's britches.)
In decks that utilize delve, Jace is an easy 2-for-1.
September 2, 2015 6:49 p.m.
@slovakattack Can you explain then how Jace benefits from delve? Because if your literally just talking being able to recast Dig Through Time then Jace isn't benefiting from delve, he's benefiting from a really great draw spell. That draw spell just happens to be called Dig Through Time.
The way you guys talk about Jace and delve, I keep thinking you mean dredge. Because that would actually help you flip him, along with give you spells to target with his minus ability.
September 2, 2015 7:06 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #24
Because the object of jace isn't always to flip him? Sometimes he's just a good draw engine that happens to also fuel future delve spells
September 2, 2015 7:10 p.m.
I would just like to point out that Jace is NOT Bob. He can't be used as an attacker, has to tap to activate the ability, and doesn't actually generate card advantage while he's a creature. He really just helps you filter through your deck. And as a planes walker he again doesn't draw you cards, he just generates some advantage by allowing you to reuse cards in your grave. He is completely dependent on the cards around him. He's a fine card sure, but he's not an all-star in any single deck, and he won't hold a $40 price tag after he's rotated and the hype has died down. Nothing you've posted in this thread shows any conclusive signs that he has staying power. Until he starts appearing as a 3-4 of in a major T1 Modern or Legacy deck, there's no reason to believe he'll hold anything over a $15 price tag in the long term. And as Slovak said, he was never $5. The cheapest I saw him was $25 pre-release. Definitely not a card you want to be investing in.
September 2, 2015 7:22 p.m.
Between one and two weeks after Origins was released, Jace saw no play and was being talked down about by everyone on the internet. I picked up 6 copies from stores for $10~ during this period (I bought every one I saw) BC he wasn't worth anything and I expected him to go up. I also said since it was first spoiled I expected it to be at least a 2 of in modern grixis decks. So I bought 4 foils (2 prerelease and 2 normal, since I have no idea which will end up being better lol) for less than what a non-foil would cost right now, and I'm glad I didn't listen to the naysayers.
As far not seeing play now, he was a 4 of in the main deck of the grixis deck that top 8'd (5th overall, pretty sure he was the #1 seed going into top 8) the last modern scg open.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90016
He is also seeing fringe play in legacy. I don't know if this will continue over time, but I cashed out all my Jace's that weren't foil at $30-40 each, which is good enough.
September 2, 2015 7:59 p.m.
slovakattack says... #27
abenz419: Jace fills the graveyard quickly, which makes casting Dig more efficient.
Jace does not benefit from delve; delve benefits from Jace.
September 2, 2015 8:10 p.m.
electromancer says... #28
I always manage to cast and flip Snapcaster Mage at instant speed. His fog ability also kills creatures with 2 or less toughness. ;)
September 2, 2015 9:16 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #30
kmcree He's trying to say that Snappy is a better Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in a comical/sarcastic way.
September 2, 2015 9:53 p.m.
electromancer says... #31
Clearly I failed. I actually really like the new planeswalker design. It's no longer a "that planeswalker is bad" vs. "that planeswalker is good" situation. These planeswalkers are completely unplayable in the wrong deck but "insane" in the right deck. It's like you have to think. That said, I'm not sure of any decks that would benefit from snapcaster 5-6.
September 2, 2015 10:03 p.m.
Having just begun collecting my goyfs (dont tell my wife) ive been pondering which BGx i wanted to pursue. I would like to experiment with a sultai list and i think flip jace could work well. To echo whats already been said, i dont thinks hes insane-good, but the card advantage package that he, snappy, and bob would provide i find really tempting.
September 3, 2015 12:10 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #34
I don't believe I would want to play Jace in tier modern deck, not when I could just play 4 Snapcaster Mages.
September 3, 2015 4:19 a.m.
You don't run him instead of Snapcaster Mage but alongside Snappy. Maybe I was a bit exaggerating suggesting he was 'insane'. But at least he is more powerful than you guys give him credit for.
September 3, 2015 4:57 a.m. Edited.
electromancer says... #36
@Putrefy You're right. It is a bit unfair to compare to snapcaster. That card is actually insane. I remember when it first caught on, Wizards's first reaction was this: "I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage." -Zac Hill. I think this is an attempt at making a fair version of that card. It's certainly not bad, but it's not a replacement and it requires a deck that wants more than 4 snapcasters.
Maybe this will encourage Delver lists outside of Red, like Sultai or Dimir.
September 3, 2015 11:55 a.m.
BUG delver is certainly a thing in legacy, but without Ponder and Brainstorm it loses a lot of consistency. Is it worth losing Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command for Abrupt Decay and discard is the question...
September 3, 2015 5:34 p.m.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip strikes me as a good card, and I think the Grixis Control list that top8'd with him is the start of a trend as opposed to a 1-of fluke (though 4 feels like a bit much). However, it's not maintaining a $30-40 price tag once it rotates out. No way. It'll settle somewhere between $10 and $20, which is fair for a good (but not "insane" card that sees play in one T1 deck and has potential in a couple of T2/3/unranked ones). As for the title of the thread... you guys ever heard of clickbait? lol
September 4, 2015 11:13 a.m. Edited.
ThisIsBullshit says... #39
I think a lot of his value comes from Standard, and I think some of it is still hype - Origins has only been out for a month or two.
He has seen play in Legacy, but like other people have said, Modern lacks the powerful 1 mana cantrips to abuse with his planeswalker ability, so I don't think he'll ever hit Snappy prices.
I'd guess he'll settle a little more when BFZ comes out, and I think he'll lose a lot of his $40 pricetag when he rotates out of standard.
September 4, 2015 11:32 a.m.
ModernNexus has it as Tier 1, and it's got about 5% meta share on MTGTop8. So I'd say it's definitely a big player in the meta, at least right now.
September 9, 2015 1:01 p.m.
To be fair, Kolaghan's Command was a bit of a late bloomer. Raise Dead-style effects have traditionally not been eternal-playable, and neither are Shock, Smelt, nor Raven's Crime (8-Rack notwithstanding). What took people a while to get is that while each one of those individually isn't much, having all 4 on a card and getting to choose 2 is a 2-for-1 waiting to happen, and thus amazing. Plus, this gave instant speed to 2 of the modes that you don't typically find at instant speed, which is even more value. I think Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip is a bit more obvious in application than Kolaghan's Command was (especially considering that it slots right into an existing deck as opposed to promoting other decks to the big time).
September 9, 2015 4:11 p.m. Edited.
I was calling grixis control as the next up and coming control deck for months and months. Its clearly extremely strong when you forget about Cruel Ultimatum and play it sensibly.
September 9, 2015 5:12 p.m.
JaceArveduin says... #45
Are you sure you can play Grixis Control without at least one Cruel Ultimatum?
September 9, 2015 5:22 p.m.
JaceArveduin - Yes because everyone is now and it's a tier 1 deck.
Cruel Ultimatum is a bad card in modern. Too mana costly. Doesn't insta-win.
September 9, 2015 5:24 p.m. Edited.
Cruel Ultimatum is not a Modern-caliber card, though that's not truly its fault. It's just stuck in colors with no ramp in a fast-as-hell format. I do agree with ChiefBell and TheAlexGnan in that no competitive Modern Grixis Control deck runs it, though. Have a look and see.
September 9, 2015 5:28 p.m.
JaceArveduin says... #48
Yeah, it's really expensive, but I did once see a Living Lore deck run it and cast it 3 times in one game! FNM level, if you're wondering.
September 9, 2015 5:32 p.m.
JaceArveduin says... #49
Ouch, harsh bro. If I didn't think the FNM thing was relevant, I wouldn't have added it!
But yeah, I don't think he actually topped that night either, but he's a fun guy and pulls out the jankiest shit. I mean, at one point he was missing cards for his Legacy deck and ended up running with 3 cryptic commands.
September 9, 2015 5:42 p.m.
JaceArveduin says... #50
:D Friends! Or something like that.
And you're absolutely right, there's a huge difference between now and 6 months ago. After all, 6 months ago I had a (small) chance when going against twin players with my land destruction deck, but now they either have Tasi or Tarmo out early enough or they can do it off so few mana that I don't have a chance. It doesn't help that it's a small shop and everyone knows I'm either playing LD or Mono-W Protections, so they know to keep mana heavy hands xD
But what really surprises me is the lack of Mirran Crusaders and Paladin en-Vecs/Fiendslayer Paladins. Maybe it's because I'm just a scrub, but they just seem to line up rather well against common removal/creatures.
-Fulcrum says... #2
I've been kinda out of the Modern meta for a bit, what does he do?
September 2, 2015 2:09 p.m.