Why Are Most Hatebears so Inexpensive?
General forum
Posted on July 5, 2023, 8:43 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
A "hatebear" is a permanent, usually a creature, that prevents something from happening or otherwise hinders a certain strategy, with some well-known examples of such cards being Containment Priest, Drannith Magistrate, Collector Ouphe, Hushwing Gryff, Hushbringer, and so forth, and such permanents tend to be rather inexpensive, which I severely dislike, as I feel that cards that can completely shut down certain strategies should be more expensive. I am not bothered by Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Angel of Jubilation, since they have stricter casting costs than the other cards that I mentioned, nor by Ash Zealot, since that creature punishes a player for doing something, but does not outright forbid them from doing so, as do most of the others.
What does everyone else say about this? Why are most hatebears so inexpensive? Should it not cost more mana to utterly ruin a deck's strategy?
wallisface says... #3
Everything Caerwyn is 100% spot-on.
The whole point of a hatebear card is to restrict an opponents abilities to perform a particular task, before they’ve already done that task.
If you’re having a lot of problems achieving what you want because of a hatebear card, its a good indicator your deck isn’t running enough interaction - as almost all of these cards are trivially-easy to remove.
July 5, 2023 9:41 p.m. Edited.
Something I wanted to add is hatebears are usually almost always a global effect, meaning it harms the owner of the card just as much as their opponents. Since they're a symmetrical effect, not only do the opponents need to play around it but so does the owner; it's not a simple "Hey, you all cannot do this", it's "everyone cannot do this".
July 5, 2023 10:43 p.m. Edited.
plakjekaas says... #5
Everyone knows a bear in magic costs 2 mana too be a 2/2. The etymological explanation of hatebear should explain why they're that cheap :P
July 6, 2023 3:17 a.m.
The comments in this tread are accurate. When a lightning bolt can remove the threat, you need to be running one. Honestly, this is a big argument I make to un-ban Hullbreacher in edh. Though, I know it isn't really constructive to say "removal takes care of it" for what you are asking. It's just a design space that has been filling out in recent years that was previously occupied by enchantments and artifacts. And honestly, I prefer them as creatures even with the mindset wizard's has of "creatures do everything". Meta wise you need to shift to strategies that make hatebearers bad (i.e. boardwipes, Jester's Cap effects to pluck bearers, or do player removal by focusing the player). They have their place like any other strategy, and can be countered.
July 6, 2023 9:37 a.m.
Ojallday - Hullbreacher is not a hatebear, at least not in its conventional usage. Yes, it can shut down draw effects, and yes, Wizards likely designed it to be a hatebear - but in actual play it was used offensively alongside wheel effects to ensure its controller always had a full hand, always had mana to play those cards, and always had opponents with only one card in hand.
Unlike your traditional defensive hatebear, Hullbreacher served as a hyper-efficient offensive combo piece, providing cards, mana, and protection in the form of stripping opponents of possible removal. The advantage it provided alongside a common type of spell is why it got a ban and likely will remain on the ban list indefinitely.
July 6, 2023 9:50 a.m. Edited.
Caerwyn-Exactly, the comment "it dies to removal" is applicable for every card including Hullbreacher. It doesn't really do anything for the conversation. OP is likely looking for a gameplay philosophy on approaching hatebearers.
July 6, 2023 3:22 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #9
Ojallday Na, the OP is just drumming up conversation regardless of where it goes. He does this a lot lol.
July 6, 2023 4:31 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #10
First: I love these conversations, so thanks for the post. Second: I was at first a little put off with the conversion of what used to be primarily enchantments into creatures, but it does seem more reasonable in that more decks can handle/deal with them. I would counter one of the responses, respectfully, though regarding effects that are omnidirectional vs only “all opponents.” I’m a huge advocate for the Copper Tablet style of effects, rather than the Fevered Visions style. I feel like we’ve been moving too far in the “good things for me, worse things for everyone else” direction and would really appreciate more balanced downsides. You all know my feelings about mana burn, but I really do feel like the end of that era was the beginning of the (for lack of a better term) spoiled “more is better” era.
July 6, 2023 6:14 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #11
cEDH stax player here.
Run more removal. Hatebears are entirely fair, in every sense; they punish degenerate strategies the most, with some exceptions. The only high-level playable 3 mana hatebears have flash (Mindcensor, Oppo), at least that I can think of.
Daily reminder to put Cursed Totem and Grafdigger's Cage in every deck you can
July 6, 2023 6:16 p.m.
Noire_Samhain says... #12
As it was mentioned by AstroAA, many hatebears affect everyone. If it affects everyone, generally its going to be cheaper. Neither of these are hatebears but compare Heartbeat of Spring to a card like Mana Reflection, symmetrical vs asymmetrical.
White also is one of the colors of efficient creatures, the color Hatebears often are- generally they're going to be cheaper, and its not like Hatebears are often that impressive stat-wise to make up for their potentially game changing effects. (Mono-)White also generally needs to get a bunch of small fries out or slow things down to do anything, and Hatebears are both.
July 6, 2023 7:13 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #14
Ojallday, I started this thread because I have had my games ruined by hatebears, most notably Drannith Magistrate, too many times, and I am hoping that I am not the only player who thinks that such cards are too inexpensive for what they do.
July 6, 2023 9:27 p.m.
wallisface says... #15
DemonDragonJ, Drannith Magistrate is one of the absolute fairest of cards. Tbh i’d be fine it it only costed a single mana instead of two.
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its effect only punishes players trying to do “unfair” things. The game needs answers to strategies that are trying to cheat the system.
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at 1 power, this creature presents no threat at all.
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at 3 toughness and 2cmc, this creature dies to pretty-much every killspell under the sun. Its so ridiculously easy to remove, that being tripped-up by it to the extent that your game is “ruined”, is more an indication that your deck is severely lacking interaction, and has some pretty big flaws.
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its effect is universal, so the owner has the adhere to their own rules.
July 6, 2023 9:50 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #16
wallisface, I realize that you primarily play competitive Modern and your assessment of Drannith Magistrate is perfect for that aside from the fact that Magistrate is NOT universal. However; for EDH Drannith Magistrate is oppressive for commander focussed decks. It is doubly so for commander focussed decks in the more casual end of the format where interaction is slim. The people who get hit by it in EDH are actually those trying to play the most "fair" type of Magic that the format offers. I realize that the answer to this is to simply run more interaction if you can be hosed by a single card. Alternatively one could hold what interaction they do have for the cards that hose them. It is hard to convince casuals to change their deck building or play patterns though.
July 6, 2023 11:18 p.m.
wallisface says... #17
Gidgetimer yeah I do get the situation’ll be very different between formats, and edh is also a format that promotes goldfish-racing over interactive games - so the validity of my assessment will definitely change for the mess of multiplayer games.
I still think even then, though, that the card is still super fair, and it helps promote better deckbuilding from those players it affects.
July 6, 2023 11:25 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #18
DemonDragonJ Nothing bad, just that you start a lot of threads on a lot of random topics to stir up community discussion and that you stay engaged but don't really try to steer the conversation where you want it to go. Sorry if I was too vague.
July 7, 2023 1:59 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #19
wallisface I'm with Gidget on this one but understand your assessment for modern. Magistrates problem in commander is if you don't see your removal in a singleton format and you're reliant on the commander you built your entire deck around, then any and all chance of your deck winning goes right out the window as does your enjoyment of that game. If the card said "from hand or Command Zone", I'd have ZERO problems with the card (I realize a Standard card will never refer to the Command Zone... but still.). I personally refuse to run the card because the effect is pretty brutal against fairer boardstate matters decks.
July 7, 2023 2:19 a.m.
I would build on one point on Gidgetimer’s statements about Drannith Magistrate:
I do not think the problems with the card in EDH stem just from its ability to shut down Commander reliant decks - the issue in EDH is that it never wiffs. As I mentioned above, part of the reason Hatebears are so efficient to cast is your chance they do not do anything a vanilla creature could do. If none of your opponents are heavy into creatures with ETBs, that Hushbringer is doing a whole lot of nothing.
Drannith Magistrate never had that problem in EDH - it has a 100% chance of being able to interfere with 100% of your opponents. Even if your deck can function perfectly well without your Commander, the Commander tends to be a helpful card to your strategy, making it just a wee bit harder for non-reliant decks to win.
I think it is probably a bit overhyped in terms of its power - it is annoying, to be sure, and interacts poorly with the rules of Commander (which is one reason a card can get banned) but there are plenty of ways to play around it and, while I think “dies to removal” is a generally poor argument, the fact it is guaranteed to hit everyone increases the chance someone steps up and tries to remove it.
July 7, 2023 10:50 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #21
And, to leverage what I had said before, I’d be more okay with Magistrate if it applied to everyone... but it’s just opponents. Good for me, bad for you. Wizards are a greedy, greedy bunch and need to pay ;p
July 7, 2023 11:43 a.m.
- Most are not good, so the low cmc is fine.
- Sometimes R&D makes mistakes printing new cards.
- Sometimes the rules committee makes mistakes by not banning cards in certain formats. (Drannith Magistrate in EDH comes to mind).
Basically, they have to be cheap because they're bad (for the most part).
Caerwyn says... #2
They have to be inexpensive or they would not be worth using. Hatebears are proactive cards - they must be in play for them to function. That means you need to be able to field your hatebear before your enemy plays the threat they are designed to stop. If they come down after, say, a creature with a powerful ETB because the hatebear cost too much mana, then they very well could become a dead draw.
Additionally, playing a hatebear is a gamble - there is always the chance your opponent(s) are not playing the specific thing they shut down. In such a situation, they are basically a vanilla creature - and a 3-mana potential vanilla creature is a lot harder to gamble with than a 2-mana potential vanilla creature.
Finally, hatebears do not help you win - they just help keep you from losing. When you start getting into 3+ mana spells, you really want your spells to be advancing victory, not merely staying defeat.
All together, given the need for them to come down before threats, the risk of them being duds, and their not directly advancing victory, one or two mana seems like the right spot for them.
July 5, 2023 8:56 p.m. Edited.