Turn 2 Sylvan Primordial allround greatest standard play
Standard forum
Posted on Nov. 10, 2013, 11:34 p.m. by Ultimaodin
Okay so I'm seriously of the belief that Sylvan Primordial is now ridiculously strong with Nykthos now in standard. Turn 2 Sylvan Primordial basically makes every opponent I verse scoop. Now yes turn 3 is a heck load more common for me but Turn 2 actually isn't as uncommon as it sounds. I hit it roughly every 1/5 matches:
Turn 1: Forest, Elvish Mystic
Turn 2: Burning Tree Emissary, Burning Tree Emissary, Burning Tree Emissary, Nykthos, Sylvan.
Sure it doesn't sound that common on paper but in play it's actually very plausible to occur. If not you can guarantee you'll hit him on turn 3 if you have him in hand.
So why do I think this is the best possible play? It literally wrecks almost every deck:
Against red deck wins, losing that one land hits hard as they typically only run 18 lands and you now have a Goliath blocker that completely shuts down red. Boros decks are pretty much the same, they just can't build an army up fast enough.
Against control there are no 1 drop counter spells. Without mana control can't do anything. With two mana they can be chance enough to have Syncopate in hand but that means there ditching one of their best counter spells (my opinion, that card is great) massively early. Bouncing Sylvan just isn't an option. Against Black control there is pretty much the same effect because they can't react until after it hits, and casting that kill spell typically cost 2+ mana. Sometimes they can kill it but you already have a massive advantage in mana against your opponent. Using that kill spell stops them from casting anything else meaning whatever you cast is going to be one more threat on board (although I typically just keep culling there land).
Against devotion decks Sylvan completely shuts them down. Now you're probably thinking that targeting Nykthos would be the best option, but just think about if you remove the basic land needed to trigger Nykthos' main mana generation ability. Suddenly they have a land that gives 1 colourless mana and nothing else. Pretty much becoming useless.
Against Heroic Decks, without mana they can't combat trick to ridiculous levels.
Mono green so far is the only deck I've seen that has been able to stabilize using mana dorks but then I have a 6/6 on the field and enough mana to throw down whatever I want (so long as I have a mountain/draw into a mountain)
One of the only opponents I've versed competitively who didn't scoop was a guy running an Izzet scry deck, but even they eventually lost because my board presence was just too much and frenzied tilling pretty much removed the last shred of hope they had. He kept playing which was cool though. He eventually hit Anger of the Gods but by then I had Xanagos to also grant mana and couple other bigger creatures so all it did was guarantee Nykthos not to function. He died the next turn but I think he just wanted to go out swinging. The fact he didn't have a shock on turn 1 though is probably what let me win.
Now yes I have seen turn 2 Worldspine Wurm but the chance is a bit less and not too many people run Worldspine due to being typically useless in an opening hand. That said if that hits my Sylvan will be pretty pale faced in comparison but pretty much everything is.
I feel like if you are even semi-consistently getting 3 burning tree-emissaries, you are not shuffling enough/properly. Its a possible scenario, but I'm not sure I'd agree it is a plausible one.
Turn 3 could be pretty regular depending on the deck and is still plenty powerful, though.
November 10, 2013 11:48 p.m.
raithe000 While the BTE thing is certainly not a consistent ordeal, getting enough mana between Elvish Mystic , Voyaging Satyr , Sylvan Caryatid , Karametra's Acolyte , and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is not to hard to do. Add Garruk, Caller of Beasts to the mix and his abilities and you've got easy access to almost any green fatty.
November 10, 2013 11:56 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #5
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd Doom Blade in response to you popping my land.
Seems powerful but you are going to run into some serious problems playing against MBD with all their kill.
November 11, 2013 12:04 a.m.
Spootyone I agree there is plenty of mana for turn 3 or later, I just don't think it can be done consistently on turn 2.
November 11, 2013 12:08 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #7
SpootyoneYes I didn't mention Garruk, mainly because I run Xenagos over Garruk due to simply being faster and more consistently useful.
Mono Green though can be pretty powerful at the moment, the only thing it's lacking is any real card draw. (Although Warrior's Lesson is actually a lot better than I originally gave it credit due to so many green creatures having Trample.)
I honestly think Red/Green is the strongest colour combination at the moment because it just gets big ridiculously fast. Burning-Tree Emissary as well is just so massively powerful with devotion. Rubblehulk Raiders as well get out of hand fast and then with Nykthos you can just cast bomb after bomb.
raithe000 Since a match has two rounds that's 1/10 rounds but even if I don't hit three I usually get two and with 4/ 5 mana I can still cast Ember Swallower or Bramblecrush or even a Voyaging Satyr (untap target Nykthos, Shine to Nyx). I actually find hitting Nykthos the hardest part which is why Xenagos is so good because he also grants mana as a +1 and is effectively always free to cast because of it. On turn two if you start on play that's 8/60 cards already drawn and on draw that's 9/60. There's pretty much a 1/7 chance of getting what you want to work. Turn 3 Sylvan though is pretty much guaranteed and even then that's breaking most opponent decks. Between Nykthos, Garruk and Xenagos Sylvan is a threat that just hits fast and hard.
Ohthenoises - I've had no issue with mono-black because I can destroy land faster than they kill. They have to let Sylvan hit before they can later respond to it. and they can't Doom Blade with 1 land.Yes they can do it during their next turn but then they just spent there entire turn removing 1 of my threats. You can't Doom Blade until Sylvan and its effect resolves. You can tap the mana in response and float it for the end of turn but then you're still a land down and I'm a land up.
November 11, 2013 12:10 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #9
and then cast it with their other land.....
and that still pops the sylvan on your end step.....
and nothing I said changes.....
November 11, 2013 12:13 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #10
Ohthenoises Yes, and again that still leaves you one land down and me one land up coming into the next turn.
November 11, 2013 12:14 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #11
Also, you CAN respond to his ETB ability because the ability has to go on the stack....
I mean yes, you're a land up, that's all well and good but a good mono B player will just sidestep this and kill your big stuff.
November 11, 2013 12:15 a.m.
Two things:
Best deck right now is Esper. The G/R ramp deck always dies to Supreme Verdict and Elspeth, Sun's Champion .
MBC beats the described play really easily... with its 4x mainboard Thoughtseize (another thing this deck isn't good against) and killing dorks.
Fact is, a lot of the tier one decks have excellent answers to this strategy.
November 11, 2013 12:20 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #13
I wouldn't say "best" I'd be more inclined to say "one of the best" since the winner of most standard events recently has been changing on a daily basis but otherwise I agree completely with Blakkhand.
Except Mono U devotion. I'm still not sure how that's a thing with it's distinct lack of anything other than bounce for removal. Then again I've not run into a MUD deck yet soooo IDK.
November 11, 2013 12:25 a.m.
hehe... Mono U's removal is beating the other player, which generally gets rid of their permanents.
November 11, 2013 12:29 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #15
Yea, but Doom Blade on Master of Waves , bye bye all your tokens. Just seems like a REALLY fragile deck to me.
November 11, 2013 12:32 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #16
Ohthenoises - The ETB triggers with Sylvan so you can't respond to the ETB with out responding to Sylvan which means you can't Doom Blade Sylvan because he's not yet on the field. You can use counter spells but that is the only way to prevent the ETB effect since it's a when not a then.
Being effectively two land up is more significant than I think you realize especially when I throw down an Ember Swallower and Monstrous him in response to you trying to kill. Or I Frenzied Tilling or I can throw down my side-boarded Witchstalker or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Blakkhand While running this deck I've never had an Esper Player have the 4 mana to cast Supreme Verdict . As far as Thoughtseize goes it has stopped this play twice now but it's always just been a delay Plus not many of the mono-black decks run 4 of them because late game it's a dead draw. I've still yet to lose to mono-black even having been Thought Seized. Thankfully they can't pick Nykthos though so I can generally still do something to murder their land.
As for the mono-U discussion, I can see how it worked in the pro-tour because of the other decks they were going up against but when I see them played against me I chuckle, regardless which of my decks I'm running.
November 11, 2013 12:41 a.m.
Having played a lot of RG Aggro and Naya Blitz before rotation, I can attest that 3x Burning-Tree Emissary is not a common hand, let alone the 7 of 8 perfect hand you described. I can totally see that being a sweet occurrence now and then, but it's just not mathematically feasible that you're seeing that 20% of the time from a properly shuffled deck.
November 11, 2013 12:44 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #18
Sigh, hooray for explaining the stack...
Here's what happens:
You cast Sylvan Primordial
, check for resolution, it resolves.
Sylvan Primordial
enters the battlefield. His ETB ability triggers and is placed on the stack.
You now have to pass priority, in response to Sylvan Primordial 's ETB ability that is on the stack I tap both lands and cast Doom Blade and pass priority.
Assuming you have no response, Doom Blade resolves and destroys Sylvan Primordial . Now since abilities exist independent from their source Sylvan Primordial 's ability resolves. You pop a noncreature permanent and get a Forest.
November 11, 2013 12:46 a.m.
Actually, the vast majority of MBC lists run 4x Thoughtseize . Its part of the core of the deck.
Also, I have a hard time believing your claims regarding esper. Either the opposing pilot had a bad list, or (s)he had no idea how to play esper. Almost all esper hands have cheap removal, so your T1-2 dork is almost guaranteed to be killed (even caryatid can be Devour Flesh ed). Sure, you might have the rare double BTE/Nykthos hand, but other than that, they have a solid chance of reaching verdict mana.
November 11, 2013 12:55 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #20
Slycne - In a match there are (typically) two rounds so it's a 10% chance. I probably should have made that clearer.
Ohthenoises - I don't really get the point of your post. I still end up two land ahead. Even without a 6/6 that's one hell of an advantage that I think you're underestimating significantly.
Blakkhand No I just have enough land destroy spells to not ever be sweated. If you remove Espers' every blue source of mana you literally have nothing to fear. If they can't counter spells they can't build up enough mana which means they can't counter spells. Or for less counter heavy styled Esper decks you can again instead focus on the white or black sources.
Plus again I sideboard in Witchstalker and Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and watch them squirm.
November 11, 2013 1:13 a.m.
notamardybum says... #21
the argument that people have with having Doom Blade as a response to a great play is getting really irritating. sylvan primordial turn 2 and yeah you can float your mana, but hey now you only have 1 mana and he's got 4 creatures on the battlefield. in a turn or 2 theres an Ember Swallower and now all your land is gone. OMG DOOM BLA.... oh wait i have no mana to play doom blade....shit
November 11, 2013 1:16 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
When I initially said that notamardybum I was joking. however in the current standard environment it's a VERY real thing. The only reason it went any further was because Ultimaodin didn't seem to understand how the stack works with ETB effects and responding to them.
Yes, being a land down is detrimental, however, as I said, most of the kill in MBD is 2-3 cmc which is EASILY in the target range for this stuff. Also, in your situation you described with Ember Swallower a MBD player could easily respond to that as well leaving both players with an Armageddon ed landbase. (If this were T3 he would only have 3 lands and I would have 2, leaving us both with 0 lands and him with a various number of BTE.)
November 11, 2013 1:28 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #23
Also, Ultimaodin. My point is you CAN respond to the ETB ability and no, I'm not underestimating ramp but you aren't understanding that MBD players don't CARE about their land base. All they need is 2 to kill at least 8 things and that's JUST with their kill spells. Then you start to factor in Desecration Demon s and more.
Also, Witchstalker "dies" to Thoughtseize , Devour Flesh , AND Far / Away . and I'll take 6 to kill a Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in a heartbeat but usually i'll just trade with my Desecration Demon s. (I'll take the 6 because Gray Merchant of Asphodel will just gain it all right back.)
November 11, 2013 1:32 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
Those comments were meant to be reversed. Oh well.
November 11, 2013 1:32 a.m.
RickyHoeppner says... #25
If I was playing control and had a syncopate, I would definitely counter the primordial.
November 11, 2013 3:49 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #26
Ohthenoises - No I understand the stack. I said you couldn't respond to it until it hits. The effect still occurs and you actually ended up backing up my point. If I were on play the fact is you wouldn't have two land in the first place anyway. (which was my first point) and then if you have two mana to cast Doom Blade you still lose the land and I still get a Forest.Also every player should take into account their land. You can say MBD doesn't care but you can only use that 2 drop kill spell once a turn with only two mana. I can cast whatever I like with my mana base and as many things as I have cards in hand.Guess what if you can't get to 4 mana to cast Desecration Demon you can't trade with Ruric and if you can get to 5 mana you can't use Gary. You can say black doesn't care about it's mana base but if they are stuck on 2 mana eventually they run out of options.
Also turn 3 would be 4 lands because Sylvan gave me a land plus I have a mana dork.
I think saying somebody doesn't care about having access to mana is a little silly because Magic is based around using mana. (excluding the old 0 cast spells and trap instants)
Now I'm not saying the deck is perfect I'm just saying this play is the best for giving advantage over your opponent. I've yet to lose to a mono-black deck yet as I generally out pace their kill spells. There is no such thing as a perfect deck, if there was then why would anybody run anything else? Damn I could probably make a Golgari deck that would battle my land destruction deck well. (green for ramp and black for all those kill spells) Actually I've not versed a Golgari deck so that could be interesting. Anyway my point is Sylvan hits and I get an advantage regardless if you doom blade it or not.
November 11, 2013 4:26 a.m.
This series of plays is clearly very strong, but (Assuming that the Blitzkrieg destruction deck on your profile is the deck in question) I've tested it a few times. As far as I've seen it seems to fall over dead to both the Mono red devotion splash white, and the mono white weenie splash red. Esper consistently has enough removal spells to deal with all the major threats you play despite your land destruction.
I'd have to say it's certainly not a weak deck by any means, but admittedly unless you have the luck of the gods this deck does not consistently lock your opponents off of 3-4 mana every single game. It seems to be capable of doing so around 40% of the time, otherwise your threats are just removed, or your mana dorks are dealt with via Magma jet or Anger of the gods.
In regards to Turn 2 Sylvan primordial being incredible on the play when your opponent has one land, Yup that's a pretty solid play. That play also requires a very specific hand. To put things into perspective, Back in Scars block my Infect deck could reasonably kill my opponent on turn 2. That doesn't mean it was the greatest standard play, that just meant that I assembled the cards I needed and had a great opening hand. It still lost to anything with removal, or hand disruption. With Thoughtsieze now existing in standard it's even more likely for your opponent to have some way of disrupting this angle of play.
Again, the deck looks fine. Sylvan Primordial is very powerful when it hits early. I can't honestly see the card making any particularly big ripples in the standard meta-game.
November 11, 2013 6:15 a.m.
beakedbard says... #28
Hmmmm that's a fair point land destruction as early as T2 gives you too big an advantage to ignore and the fact you can bring out Ember Swallower then T3 Monsterous him as well looks like its time to get on a Ramp/Land Destruction deck.
November 11, 2013 6:53 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #29
Everyone is missing the point here...
The fact that you HAVE to have multiple BTE's in your starting hand and NOT get disrupted BEFORE you "combo off" is the key point here.
The chance of this happening is < 1% as shown from using information gathered from the following pages:
http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/7850/how-do-you-calculate-the-likelihood-of-drawing-certain-cards-in-your-opening-han
(sorry, don't know how to post the pages as hyperlinks on this site)
If you are getting 2+ BTE's MOST of the time in your matches, either a) you have more than 4 in your deck, b), you're stacking the deck, or c) you are a jedi and the midicholorians LOVE you (and I would be jealous if you were).
In either event, this would be cheating and therefore not viable.
If you use ANY other method to "ramp" (via other creatures mentioned besides BTE), then removal can and will happen unless you are playing against a bad player
November 11, 2013 9:31 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #30
[ desired text ] ( Url ) without spaces is a shortcut I use
In your case: [ Source ] ( http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/7850/how-do-you-calculate-the-likelihood-of-drawing-certain-cards-in-your-opening-han )
Now without the spaces: Source
November 11, 2013 9:36 a.m.
The only thing I can think about from this post is the use of the word 'verse' as a word that means "play against"
It hurts my soul.
November 11, 2013 10:36 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #33
Lorickx Oh the deck on here is actually out of date.now XDAlthough the old version could still land turn 2 Sylvan.
harrydemon117 Where I play you let your opponent shuffle and cut after you do. I could have the luck of the gods for this but yeah I've hit this quite a number of times and typically at least once a day/night. (Which is generally 5 matches with two to three rounds each)
I should really update the deck on here itself. (and all my other decks as well, I generally build my deck here just to get a first base idea before collecting cards) Eh, after NaNoWriMo.
Another thing I should point out,I have been turn 1 shocked to have Elvish Mystic die to have the play disrupted. Made me so sad. I still won the match but losing my Elf really slows the deck down. (all these two drop mana dorks)
Let us all agree that Thoughtseize is a ridiculously powerful card.
November 11, 2013 10:36 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #34
Devonin - Sorry, NaNoWriMo has me in the habit of just writing stuff as the first phrasing that comes to mind. Verse was just the only word I could think of on the spot.
November 11, 2013 10:43 a.m.
NaNoWriMo...you poor thing.
Forcing yourself to churn out writing at a length which is completely useless for any future use. Good luck though! You're wasting your 1666 words for the day on Magic!
November 11, 2013 10:45 a.m.
reverendvile777 says... #36
playtests
Unreliable combo is unreliable. Sorry man but it's just not effective in standard. During about a dozen playtests, not only did I never get the combo, I never got anything outside of a singleton BTE or mana dork out before t4. Thiink, Desecration Demon, Reaper of the Wilds, Polukranos, the Gods, all opposing creatures will outclass this list at t4, and control lists will have stable mana to Supreme Verdict .It feels like a lot of fun but it isn't going to go anywhere beyond kitchen table shenanigans.
November 11, 2013 11:16 a.m.
DemonicTrilogy says... #37
This is what people call a nut draw. There are reasons why you can't base a deck's power off nut draws. I'm not sure why this is such a huge deal. Also, Thoughtseize is something in Standard right now and it's perfectly positioned to break combo based decks, like this one.
November 12, 2013 3:57 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #38
I would argue that Turn 2 Polukranos - or even turn 2 Domri Rade - is a stronger play than turn 2 Primordial. Why? Because it means that you don't have to run unplayable 7-drops just for the hope of getting a nut draw.
The power of a combo deck should be partially judged by how strong the combo is when it goes off, yes, but its power should MAINLY be judged by, a) how consistent its combo is (in this case, very inconsistent), and b) how well it functions if it can't combo. The Gr Devotion deck passes all of these tests - it puts Garruks and huge monsters into play when it works, it's not incredibly consistent, but it has a lot of interchangeable parts, and finally, if it can't combo - it's still running a deck with a bunch of extremely playable 4, 5, and 6 drops. Unlike this deck, which gets stuck with a hand full of 7 drops.
November 14, 2013 2:52 p.m.
This seems really inconsistent to get to. I have played against a ton of Burning-Tree Emissary decks and have only seen triple BTE once. Double is more common but triple is pretty rare. I think the biggest problem with this play is not Doom Blade but Thoughtseize . Pretty much every black deck in the format (including esper) is playing some amount of Thoughtseize . Sure they might not have it but is more realistic for them to have one card the you to have this 7 card hand. Even taking a BTE sets you back pretty far and if they happen to have a follow up Doom Blade you are pretty much stuck with what you have on field which will be a BTE and either an Elvish Mystic or another BTE. Now it is more than possible you still can win but you will have a pretty dead card in you hand and your draws maybe dead for a couple turns. Not trying to bash your deck because the deck probably can do other things that cause problems, just saying that this play is more than answerable.
November 15, 2013 3:51 p.m.
jimjynkins says... #40
A friend of mine provided the Sylvan Primordial
and we built a very similar deck. Then we tested it against Orzhov control, mono-black and mono-green devotion and in all cases it was just too slow. I love land destruction and I soooo wanted it to work but again against most strategies it's the speed that kills. Yeah you may have an incredible board presence for the early game with your god draw of three Burning-Tree Emissary
but one little Supreme Verdict
and it's over. In just about every game we played my friend was able to stabilize after I was top decking.
Spootyone says... #2
As someone who just wrote an article on the green ramp deck in standard now, I can attest to the power this sort of thing has. (you forgot that with garruk, you have yet another way to make a turn 2 Sylvan).
I feel like these decks really should run more primordials than Worldspine Wurm . They're much easier to cast and have immediate presence -- even if it's land destruction.
November 10, 2013 11:36 p.m.