I'm excited for a potential Demodragon mob boss & I believe idealogically there will be really fun mechanics associated with a shard that believes in larceny & underground casinos & fighting rings :)
Also, I love the look of a Democat mob-boss. A literal party animal. I did not figure on the "life's a party" angle for Naya
March 4, 2022 2:21 p.m.
As someone who leans pretty heavily into Agents of Order flavorfully, I'm kinda unhappy about the prospect non-black Demons, but I'll have to make my peace with it, I guess.
Also, kind of surprising they named the arc Triome equivalents after the leaders rather than the factions.
March 4, 2022 3:56 p.m.
Kinda like my villian academia Ravinica. Instead of guild leaders we're getting mob bosses. I just hope we get more cool art/mechanics. I have a feeling I'll like xander.
March 4, 2022 4:07 p.m.
Oh and I predict that Elesh Norn will not appear in this set; as the leader of the bunch I expect her to appear last.
March 4, 2022 4:32 p.m.
Feels like no direct praeter presence maybe?
I will be curious if the non - demon idea will get an explanation. Will this be something like long-lasting demonic possession of a creature? -- but then would a super-long possession really cause a fundamental mana alignment change in a demon?... Is it like how reality bleeds into Eldrazi spawn that have eventually strayed from their source for a couple of generations until they become devoid but still have a root color ID?
Excited to Goad to become Evergreen in this commander product too... They should just slap "Monarch" on all the bosses too :)
March 4, 2022 7:07 p.m.
I guess this plane could just be more like Christian fallen angels as the origin of their demons instead of the classically defined MtG demon definition of: beings of mana
March 4, 2022 7:12 p.m.
I'd like to see some cards that lean more defensively than usual, with a hedonism theme like Luxury Suite. It would be a change from the usual chaos and violence, and I think this would be a perfect place to show it, especially among the faction. I'm interpreting some early information as supporting this.
Creature type predictions, based on what's been shown and known along with some of my blind guesses: Advisor, Angel, Assassin, Bat, Bird, Cat, Citizen, Demon, Dragon, Druid, Human, Rhino, Rogue, Shaman, Spirit, Vampire, Warrior, Wizard
March 5, 2022 12:01 a.m.
Davriel would be pretty perfect for this plane, except (1) Children of the Nameless gave him no motivation to leave Innistrad and (2) Ob Nixillis is already present as a Planeswalker card (though I could see him getting a one and Davriel or even )
March 5, 2022 3:01 a.m.
Continued creativity in would be appreciated, more creativity in would be really appreciated & probably will happen considering the direction of the last commanders. My major hope that I keep restating is that does not continue to be 90% sac theme. When they can make do great at a million things that it didn't do before I would think they should have no issue with a different direction on . I wonder too if will have some more Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire destroy/build themes with the description of that family being what it is.
March 5, 2022 9:21 a.m.
I was looking at a picture of party cat & just realized:... The Great Catsby!!!!!! :)
March 5, 2022 10:20 a.m.
Pretty sure these guys were printed as part of a conspiracy to annoy me personally
March 5, 2022 3:36 p.m.
Haha Coward_Token these suckers need to be errata'd to Devils right NOW! :) :) .. Seriously though, lets see some Devils in Streets as well... Funny I'm saying all this because I don't care for tribal game play at all :)
To me the excitement comes from the types of multiplayer boardstate influences that come with Demons, typically, combined with the need to refresh some of these shards that have been on the backburner for awhile now. Also, the likelihood of cards with built-in Machiavellian politics; particularly in the 5 commander products... These are all things I have reason to speculate on. You know Gavin V. is saying this commander product will make Goad officially 'commander evergreen'? If that type of thing is a focus, it gives me hope :) Though, the designers have yet to truly make Machiavellian politics hold its' own very well through many design flaws - I think R&D does put effort into trying to finally balance it well & eventually they will do so.
March 5, 2022 7:30 p.m.
It's great that they are finishing the triome and ascendancy cycles in this set. Beyond that, I am fairly "meh" on this set's theming. That being said, I do love me some angel and demon cards. A true demon tribal legend would be cool to see.
Gleeock - I like where your head is at on the multiplayer possibilities that a set like this could bring. An influx of cards that support enticing opponents to take certain game actions would be nice.
March 6, 2022 10:58 a.m.
Reading the description, maybe will actually profit from destruction & arson. Maybe even draw for destruction of non-creatures? - that would be neat & different for Jund
March 8, 2022 4:46 p.m.
Considering all the alternate win cards and wish cards we've been getting since Battle for Zendikar I don't expect to miss out on both, but I wouldn't be surprised considering how long it's been since that happened (Dominaria for the Curious). They've already done Naya and Grixis so I'm hoping for a three color awc in a new color scheme.
Not enthusiastic about the idea of mono-white demons, but if they can print mono-black angels in Kaldheim I'm willing to give it a shot.
Greenock, if your theory holds, then we can expect land destruction this set, maybe even a Demolish reprint.
I really hope they do a board wipe based on the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
This is a good opportunity for WOTC to expand the extort mechanic outside of .
March 8, 2022 7:51 p.m.
TheoryCrafter That is a really good thought doesn't need the sole lease on the payment pip for extort I suppose.
A massacre type card would make a lot of sense... Maybe something that mechanically "makes an example" and somehow closes off certain retaliatory options against you after the boardwipe/some aftermath type of ability.
I would hope for more multimodal 'bad choice' cards for opponents like Captive Audience, except not so backbreaking on the CMC front - I love the audience, but it is an extreme cost for something that doesn't immediately do anything & punishes someone instead of advancing your boardstate (5 zombies you could argue does that).
March 8, 2022 8:35 p.m.
If I were a MtG mobster I would subcontract an aspiring sculptor to decorate the cities' many parks and buildings; the sculptor would be a previously unheard of artist named: Vraska :) :) Coincidentally the statues would be incredibly lifelike.
March 8, 2022 11:38 p.m.
I do fully hope that both extort and investigate return in this set, since both would make perfect sense in this world.
I wonder if Ob-Nixilis will be working with any of the families, or will be a free agent/wild card? From what little we know of the families, which seems to be the closest match to his personality?
Also, I do not know where this was originally revealed, but the MTG wiki states that New Capenna is important to Elspeth, in some way, so is it possible that she may appear? Either way, I fully expect this set to provide a red/white/green planeswalker, as that is the only shard combination that does not yet have a planeswalker.
March 12, 2022 10:25 a.m.
I'm expecting Ob Nixilis and Elspeth, of course, and any combination of Ajani, Calix, Davriel, Niko and a new walker.
March 12, 2022 12:30 p.m.
I wonder, when describing the group what: "swaying the masses with ancient magic", means to New Cappena? Would ancient magic be angelic magic considering the cities' angelic origins? Would this mean the city actually previously had a Garden of Eden vibe before the demons? I think it is easy for people to assume something like real world Celts & druids by the description... but at the same time, different plane, different origin, & I don't think of druidic magic typically as "swaying the masses"
March 12, 2022 11:05 p.m.
I suppose could be using druidic (herbalist) magic to sway the masses via spearheading Cappena's drug trade. Certainly selling "joy" & euphoria to a Noir world would carry some premiums. Mechanically I would be curious how to make drug party cards though :)
March 12, 2022 11:12 p.m.
I'm curious why so many people are convinced this set will have angel tribal going on?
Isn't the story that the angels moved on long ago? & I speculate the substance "Halo" is basically a dwindling supply of angel blood. Why would there be a large enough pool of angels to suspect angel tribal if the storyline doesn't support this at all?
March 26, 2022 8:37 p.m.
I'm super hyped for charms to get a new cycle. I love flexible cards, and this set looks like it may be really exciting for me, as I love multi-colored cards too (Glittering Wish is one of my favorite cards).
March 28, 2022 6:32 p.m.
Getting some minor Boros Charm mode 1 flashbacks but I'm okay, don't worry people
March 29, 2022 12:33 a.m.
nbarry223 I like multicolor stuff that still has some distinct identity. I feel that shards are the right cutoff (3-colors) to include a defined identity & avoid the wishy-washy distillation of identity you get with 4+ colors. I also feel that some shards still have room for some more unique identity building. Really interested to see what partycat stuff is going to look like mechanically
March 29, 2022 2:12 p.m.
Totally just realized that the set symbol is brass knuckles flanked by angel wings. I may find the aesthetic of this set to be pretty bland and uninspired, but that is hands down my favorite set symbol in quite some time.
March 30, 2022 10:41 a.m.
Tezzeret is back already and being very sneaky by freely giving out his and Urabrask's names to a random planeswalker he just met. Speaking of which, kinda dissapointed Vivianne is also showing up again, feels like a missed opportunity to include a Planerswalker that hasn't been seen in a while.
Ob has apparently decided to be the demon among demons . Seems kind of messy to have three distinct planeswalker sides (assuming Ob isn't working with the Phyrexians) + five local factions.
March 30, 2022 12:01 p.m.
Interesting to involve Urabrask, most people were guessing at other Praetors... I was kindof hoping for no Phyrexian involvement to really throw everyone through a loop. I browsed the story - I take it this is Elspeth's home plane? Though maybe it doesn't feel like home since it was an angelic place before.
March 30, 2022 2:25 p.m.
Kinda dissapointed over the local Cephalids design mostly being "human in a skintight octopus costume" and similarly not having alien personalities (contrast e.g. Cephalid Broker). Oh well, here's hoping for the old kind making an appearance in Dominaria United and maybe The Brothers' War.
March 30, 2022 5:18 p.m.
• “Copy target spell you control that wasn’t cast.” so you can only copy copies?
• “where X is the number of permanents you’ve sacrificed this turn.” sounds like kind of a drag to keep track of
• Artifact Creature – Treasure Dog oh no
March 30, 2022 5:45 p.m.
“Copy target spell you control that wasn’t cast.”
It sounds like maybe a few cards will have the ability to copy themselves, sort of like a nerfed version of storm. There's definitely more than a few ways to make copies, so we'll have to see the upside to copying spells that you didn't cast (I'm guessing there's some kind of upside).
March 30, 2022 6:36 p.m.
Xander: Ooof, 7 mana is a bit much for a commander for my tastes, even if it's quite a luxurious set of abilities, and seeing as they all affect one opponent at a time, it feels more of a 60-format card. Yes, it obviously decks people out with Bruvac but that's hardly new. Kinda wish the last ability was tied to ward but that'd probably be too unfun :P
Raffine: Connive isn't super exciting, but at least it points the way towards Obscura being graveyard-oriented. As a commander, I'm kind of unsure of what to make of it, as it rewards go-wide and graveyard syngergy with go-tall (probably voltron due to Raffine having evasion, if only a minimum of 1 base power)
March 31, 2022 4:36 p.m.
Kind of disappointed by Naya. Swing-wide, winmore, keywords is not exactly groundbreaking
March 31, 2022 9:07 p.m.
I will hold out hope for some inspiration in the Jundboss... Though none of these give me any reason to expect some inspired design. I like Varina, Lich Queen & I like the idea of a Varina without a tribal shell needed... Which is basically our sphinx - but again, it is not even a hair removed from the aforementioned Esper commander that already exists. By description, the Jundboss will likely be some sac to remove B.S. that has already been done by Shattergang Brothers - maybe a hair removed... Lets hope they prove me wrong with design creativity.
March 31, 2022 10:28 p.m.
Gleeock - we are supposed to be getting 5 commander decks right? One for each faction. I think they will be the likely spot for more non-traditional Shard roles.
Anyone else a little annoyed by these "demon" crime bosses? It's like they just slapped the sub-type "demon" onto random creature types, gave those creatures horns, and called it good. It feels like a pretty lazy design to me.
March 31, 2022 11:25 p.m.
LMAO Ashen Rider GET FUCKED. New sideboard tech for Show and Tell. Ok, sure, they get rid of your Xander, but they discard half the cards in their hand. If they don't have the Ashen Rider when you Show and Tell, you can just win with your 6/6. I guess Swords to Plowshares is still good, right?
April 1, 2022 5:24 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor: Yeah none of them were born demons, they just made a pact. The demon-ness doesn't shine trough their actual personalities IMO, so it just look like they got away with gluing on some nubs on their heads
April 1, 2022 10:48 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor - Yeah, I will pull the reigns a bit because that probably is where I will see more of that.
April 1, 2022 10:40 p.m.
Coward_Token - I didn't realize their backstory. That makes it a little more palatable to me but I still am not a fan of how it goes against the longterm demon/angel lore of MTG. They could've just sub-typed the crime bosses as "lesser demons" and that would've been good with me.
That being said, we know from earlier set art that old Oby-Nyx is going to literally wipe the floor with Xander. I would love a portion of the story to focus on Ob Nixilis taking out each of these crime bosses for being fake demons.
April 3, 2022 2:56 p.m.
Oby is "the adversary" - an upstart without respect, who is following none of the carefully balanced rules that have been long-established between the ruling crime factions of New Capenna. The way he was written when I glanced at it last, he very well could be at least partially motivated to take out the "wannabe" demons.
April 3, 2022 10:33 p.m.
Just me who feels that the Riveteers Charms isn't very green in any of its effects?
April 4, 2022 12:57 p.m.
It is green in the last effect (black and red generally don't interact with the graveyard). I've found the effects seem to mimic the order in which the colors show up on the card in this charm cycle and this one is . It is also the most versatile charm spoiled by far in my opinion. A card that can be removal, card advantage, or grave hate is almost always useful. This one might actually see play in constructed, since the first two options are pretty decent, and the third is the most common type of sideboard effect desired.
April 4, 2022 6:30 p.m.
"(black and red generally don't interact with the graveyard)" PHRASING
April 5, 2022 12:38 a.m.
I said generally…
If you look hard enough, most colors do things outside of what their color wheel generally does, especially if you look at the planar chaos set.
April 5, 2022 6:39 a.m.
I think black actually has the most graveyard hate of all the colors. I'd have to check, but I am fairly certain that is the case. Either way, black and white have traditionally been the exile entire graveyard colors, with green having infrequent targeted graveyard hate. In fact, this is the first green iteration with that straight up exiles an opponent's entire graveyard (Endurance is the only other green card that has a similar effect). I definitely see the point that there isn't really a green element to Riveteers Charm. That being said, it seems like a pretty versatile card. All of these charms seem pretty good to be honest.
Gleeock, I haven't had a chance to look at any of the story yet, but that is interesting. It would have been cool if WotC chose to make Ob Nixilis the protagonist of the set instead of Vivian and/or Elspeth. I haven't been as plugged into the story these past few sets as I used to be, but I believe that it has been some time since WotC did a true villain protagonist (Lukka is close, but he and Nahiri are sort of portrayed as misguided heroes instead of villains). I think Nicol Bolas was the last true villain protagonist during Coreset 2019, and even that story was offset by Ugin's perspective.
April 5, 2022 9:59 a.m.
I know has a lot of exile graveyard effects, but I would say white then green has the most interaction with the graveyard as pure colors.
Some of the best hate is in black, in the form of Leyline of the Void (which ironically doesn't require you to play black) since it is a replacement effect, so don't get me wrong, black does have some hate. I'm just saying in general, it's not something the color is super known for, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.
I think the charms are pretty well done overall, and I can see them all seeing some constructed play potentially, although Cabaretti Charm is definitely the narrowest because it will only be useful in an aggro deck, and there's probably better options at that CMC. The +1/+1 trample mode is definitely a nice finisher option for decks like that though, and the other modes aren't completely irrelevant.
April 5, 2022 6:04 p.m.
Alright, I know this is a deviation from the purpose of this thread, but I was actually kind of curious about this. I did a quick search on Gatherer looking at all cards with the words "exile" and "graveyard" in their rules text. Stipulations were that the card had to hit already existing graveyards (so that excludes cards like Leyline of the Void, but Rest in Peace is alright since it has an etb effect), if the card was multi-colored then I counted as one for each color in its color identity, I included offensive shuffle effects like Endurance, I included both targeted and mass graveyard hate, and I excluded cards that couldn't hit opponents (so like Zombie Assassin). Black clocks in in 1st place with a whopping 124 cards. White is in second with 38. Tied for 3rd place is Green and Colorless with 27 a piece. 4th is blue with 16. In last place is Red with 14. Obviously there are some flaws in my rankings here, but I never realized how skewed it was towards .
April 5, 2022 7:29 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor: I thank you for relieving me from not touching grass quite as much