What Conversations do you not like having?
Posted on Aug. 4, 2021, 4:14 p.m. by RNR_Gaming
So, with commander being the ever growing format that it is, something's get rather repetitive; basically, what makes your eyes roll or keep scrolling? For me its:
1) Power levels of old commanders. Newer stuff is great to dissect but if I see one more post on various group pages asking how to build an Atraxa deck - well, I just snooze the page for a bit
2) cedh vs casual - communicate your expectations and figure out what you enjoy; sometimes players just don't mesh
3) separate ban lists - try it I dare you. Everyone has their own perspective of what's fair and what's broken and I I Guarantee there will never be a unanimous agreement
4) bannings/unbannings - rule 0 exists for a reason
5) posts like this one complaining about people complaining
Haha. No. 5 is great. Honestly i think people just being unwilling to take advice, or worse yet, people asking for advice and then getting angry when people don't tell them what they want to hear. Play at any level is fine, but if you ask for help tuning a casual deck up to cedh levels, there is a quality chance people are going to tell you that you need a complete overhaul. It's highly unlikely you can swap out 3-4 budget cards and all of the sudden go from a 5 power level to a 9. Also, anytime someone pulls the "if you aren't willing to spend $1000+ on a mana base you can't run more than 2 colors." Budget lands exist. They are slower, they are less efficient, but they get the job done.
August 4, 2021 4:25 p.m.
Not a conversation, but the lack of understanding that your meta is not my meta, and my meta is not your meta.
If someone's group runs heavy enchantments, then a card like Back to Nature makes sense to run. Telling someone to remove it from their deck because YOU think it's garbage is not helpful, because in THEIR deck it may be absolutely necessary. You don't know what their table looks like, so don't judge so cruelly on their decisions.
August 4, 2021 4:28 p.m.
- I do like me some solicited validation. The "is my deck any good" or "what would you rate my deck" is basically the same as asking your partner if you look good - except you're asking a stranger that has little to no investment in you so they'll tell you how it really is.
New players genuinely asking for help is a good thing. semi-experienced players looking for validation is a bad thing.
Card quality has increased but no cards are doing the same job as Mana Crypt and Timetwister . Some are close but still 1-2 turns behind and aren't good value pieces at all points of the game. So, definitely agree that a 5 cannot go to a 9 maybe a strong 7.
While I agree they get the job done it's still hard to accept being a turn or 2 behind that 1k+ manabase. Gotta love proxies!
August 4, 2021 4:35 p.m.
My group doesn't mind proxies provided you own at least one copy of the card, or if your trying to playtest a couple of cards you're looking to buy. But just proxy-ing cards to have powerful cards for no reason is frowned upon. I will stipulate we play at a pretty casual level though. Which makes a huge difference. I want to start a cEDH pod with a lot of proxies allowed...but i haven't found 4 willing participants yet
August 4, 2021 4:52 p.m.
That brings up the conversation I probably loathe the most: proxies in EDH.
As usual, I default to rule zero.
August 4, 2021 5:05 p.m.
My group allows proxies if the card is just outrageously expensive, the biggest example being original duals. We like 3+ color decks, we like efficient mana bases, but we aren’t made of money lol.
August 4, 2021 5:13 p.m.
As for “separate ban lists”, i think a “banned as commander” list would be fine.
August 4, 2021 5:14 p.m.
TypicalTimmy - I wouldn't say that the card is shit, it's just narrow. High ceiling low floor type of deal. My configurations for deck are different depending on where and what I'm doing. Good ol' sideboard/maybeboards are amazing things to have access too. Also, it's a great feeling to 3 for someone with an odd ball card. I remember this dude was telling me Mana Vault was bad because you have to pay to untap it...I turn 4ed him with lucky flips off of Maelstrom Wanderer . Some people just cannot evaluate :)
August 4, 2021 5:21 p.m.
Grubbernaut - haven't seen one in a bit but it'll always trend on reddit if you mention it lol
August 4, 2021 5:22 p.m.
Gruul_Ultimatum - I both miss this rule but I understand it's for simplicity sake. There's already so much to track in commander adding in another thing shouldn't hurt but I haven't been a new player in a long time so it's hard to gauge that with my perspective and experience now.
August 4, 2021 5:24 p.m.
RNR_Gaming I'll add that to the list of reasons to stay off of reddit, urgh.
As for other conversations... I'm sure most long-time players have had a situation where somebody was telling them an incorrect interpretation of how a rule worked, and they simply refused to believe you when you explained what's actually supposed to happen.
August 4, 2021 5:25 p.m.
, You make a great point I’m fine with proxies as long as you maintain a power-level fit for the meta. When you start proxying cards just to make a deck unnecessarily stronger it lessens the fun for everyone else. This is of course a case by case situation because sometimes you do need the strong expensive cards to make a fringe deck or dumb combo work.
August 4, 2021 6:18 p.m.
Stasis that ought to wind people up.
Banding, great way of winding more people up.
August 4, 2021 7:07 p.m.
Lol @ 5. When I saw you mention “old commanders” and their power levels I thought you were going to start talking smack about my main man Joven . BRING ON THE BANDING ARGUMENTS!!!
August 4, 2021 7:11 p.m.
This ones not specific to commander, but i hate when people don’t believe that my regenerated creatures still deal combat damage.
August 4, 2021 7:23 p.m.
FormOverFunction - I'm more so referring to the commanders that have hundreds/thousands of builds between edhrec and all the other deck building sites. Atraxa, Golos, Oloro, Kennrith, Najela ect. Like, a simple Google search or just reading the card almost builds the majority of those decks in most cases; I'd much rather discuss the off the wall underappreciated or underrepresented commanders :) Joven looks like a fat version of Natan Explosion and I cannot unseen it.
August 4, 2021 7:25 p.m.
Gruul_Ultimatum it is frustrating when people don't trust your knowledge of the rules, but that particular is a bit tricky. If you regenerate a creature before damage, for instance, it doesn't deal any--but suddenly it does if you regen it after damage. Fun stuff
August 4, 2021 7:28 p.m.
Gruul_Ultimatum not entirely sure why you're explaining it, but thanks nonetheless!
Although I will say that the "shield" will be removed as soon as it prevents the creature from dying--"The next time this permanent would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat."
August 4, 2021 7:41 p.m.
RNR_Gaming when there was talk about a death-metal theme for Kaldheim I was pretty let down when Joven wasn’t given given the nod. On a broader note: I think a place like this provides a lot of value, in the (sometimes circular and already-been-said) discussions that magic players are drawn to. While I don’t read all of it, I feel like the act of arguing and debating those same cards over and over provide enjoyment and MAYBE even a little comfort... I think it’s worth keeping around... which is good because it’s probably not going anywhere anytime soon. ;p
August 4, 2021 7:42 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life i explained since you were slightly off. I knew the rest.
August 4, 2021 8:12 p.m.
Gruul_Ultimatum humor me, as I'm slightly lost--where did my statement stray from fact?
August 4, 2021 8:24 p.m.
@Necrosis24 Not sure how they would feel about proxying a win-con to be honest...i have never tried. Haha. They may be chill with it, but i bet realistically they would lean into the do you own one? Then maybe try a different combo. There are tons of cheap combos these days. Some cards have exploded though. 2 years ago i bought an Earthcraft for like $14 on ebay i think it was. Went on hiatus and when i got back i recommended it to someone and they told me to check the price. Surprised the hell out of me. Squirrel Craft is hella fun though. :p
August 4, 2021 8:29 p.m.
Gruul_Ultimatum, I am not well versed in Regeneration. I understand what we call the "shield", and I understand how it works: Tap, remove from combat, remove all damage marked on it, if it would die instead leave it on the battlefield.
If it is being removed from combat, doesn't that negate it dealing combat damage?
I cast Golgari Charm , picking Regenerate.
Valkas is removed from combat, so no combat damage.
However if I then, during my 2nd main phase, cast a Dragon and it ETB, Scourge is still able to deal non-combat damage.
Similarly, if I have a means of a second combat phase, such as Fury of the Horde , Scourge can still attack and deal combat damage this turn, as it is a new combat phase and Fury untaps him.
So, may I ask to clarify what you said above? Is that what you meant, by going "around" the rules via additional steps and cards?
Or am I simply misunderstanding the rules from the start?
August 4, 2021 8:54 p.m.
For kill effects/spells used before damage resolves, a regenerated creature will not deal damage, if I'm understanding the question(s) correctly. However: if a creature attacks and is blocked, has a regen shield, and would die from the damage dealt by the blocker, it still deals its own damage to that creature (and any trample/whatever it would otherwise do) - because they deal damage simultaneously, and the regen shield is used up once said damage occurs. https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr701/#14
August 4, 2021 9 p.m.
, I experienced the same thing quite a few cards have doubled in price just these past two years alone. My zombie deck went from a $200-$300 deck(As I owned some cards so I didn't pay the full cost of the deck) to now a $500-$600 deck. I would not be able to justify buying a deck at that cost these days, glad I got the cards when I did.
August 4, 2021 9:11 p.m.
For sure. Haha. All of my decks i have on here started as pre-cons or as builds from cards i had on hand. Some of them are expensive, but if you'll look at most of them, there are just some cool pieces i have pulled over my time playing. Haha. I think the most i have ever paid for a single card was hermit druid. I payed like $30 for it. Not including alters. A guy who used to be active on here did a couple of custom pieces for me that i payed more for...but that was for the art, not the card. I got a Mayael and a Meren done. Someone stole my Mayael though. I was pretty angry about that.
August 4, 2021 9:41 p.m.
When people resort to insulting the speaker rather than acknowledging the points being made.
When people automatically assume that their definition of unfun should be the standard and dislike it when anyone disagrees with their prejudged assessment.
I'm pretty much okay with anything in EDH. I'm okay playing my non-cEDH deck against cEDH. I'm okay with combos and MLD. I just want people to be respectful. Its a card game with various aspects that not all people can agree on. So rather than remaining steadfast in our preferences, we should learn to respect one another and our differences.... unless you play the busted Derevi, Empyrial Tactician in which case you're going down!
August 4, 2021 11:12 p.m.
Profet93 - well said. I refuse to play against total casuals because I know my decks would stomp them; this only applies to non-prize supported games though and screw that bird wizard card is still gross even after all these years lol
August 4, 2021 11:23 p.m.
Thank you for playing at an appropriate power level. I love to play at pretty much all levels pre-con and above, but i have multiple decks of varying power levels from 3-7. This is one of the reasons i am building a budget(ish) cEDH deck. When we're playing casually and some douche sits down with an 8, i want to be able to put them in their place. Haha. While playing for prizes, understandably all bets are off though. If you enter any type of competition with a prize pool, it should be with the understanding we are no longer playing with a fun focus...now it is all business.
August 4, 2021 11:50 p.m.
I enjoy all of those.
I think I hate it when I have a perfect game and stomp the table and then I have to explain that my deck doesn't usually play this great as I look around at the faces of my fellow lgs players and their faces say "whatever" or "fuck you" and/or "you are gonna die first next game".
August 5, 2021 6:51 a.m.
griffstick - that's when you just beat em again and again until they need to go outside and smoke cause you screwed em so hard
August 5, 2021 1:02 p.m.
RNR_Gaming, its so awkward when that happens. When they smoke one you know they are not happy.
August 5, 2021 1:11 p.m.
griffstick - one of the 1st times I played in a modern tournment I kept killing all of this guys infect creatures and he kept yelling you "F#@$ed me! I need a smoke" and he proceeded to chain smoke until the next round. Was a tad tilting but I look back on it and laugh now.
August 5, 2021 5:48 p.m.
And that my friends is exactly why smoker's should never play stax
August 5, 2021 6:13 p.m.
P.s. if your a stax player never try to convince a smoker that your deck is helping save there life by cutting down. You might get hurt. Safety first!
edit: Instead tell them it's OK to go smoke becouse there weren't gana be able to do anything anyways :)
August 5, 2021 6:17 p.m. Edited.
I really don't enjoy discussing the uselessness of a 1-10 ranking system when discussing decks. I get that it is convenient shorthand, it is also nearly useless in actually discussing game expectations or deck power level.
August 5, 2021 6:19 p.m.
How come you feel it is useless?
some decks clearly have big advantages over other decks and its horrible to be in a game were one player is way off balance of the level
I do think they just set an exact standard of levels though and stop giving so much discretion
I seen a post on reddit that has a very well plotted out chart, I've been spreading that around and so far everyone has accepted it as a decent guideline
August 5, 2021 6:24 p.m.
Doing a strict 1-10 quantitative analysis of "this deck is this power level" ignores all of the qualitative differences between decks. I feel that it is much more worthwhile to do a deep qualitative analysis of a decks goals, methods, variability, and any number of other factors and then condense that into a 15-20 second description when looking to matchmake.
I completely agree that you don't want to be in a game with a large power imbalance. It has been my experience that some people just don't want to be in games against combo at all, or games where someone is tutoring to consistently execute a plan. It doesn't matter how easy to disrupt the combo is or how weak the consistent plan is. Some people just don't like to be in that style of game even if a numerical value assigned to the decks is an exact match.
1-10 systems are useless and people should put the bare minimum of effort into actually describing their deck instead of just ranking it. Now that I have laid down the basis of a discussion I don't like having, I am not going to be further drawn into it. I have yet to meet anyone I have convinced, and I doubt there is an argument that will convince me that I am wrong.
August 5, 2021 6:42 p.m.
In a perfect world, I agree, I would personally love to do it your way. I just feel (in my 2-3 metas I've been in) that people don't care to delve that deeply rightly or wrongly so. Many of them are tired and just want to play to blow off steam.
Also, sometimes people don't want to give away their plans - whether its because they want it to be a surprise, they dont want opponents to choose a counter deck based on the description etc....
I wouldn't mind giving a description for my decks as I'm a straightforward person who wants to make sure everyone understands whats going on to ensure less disagreement. But thats me personally.
August 5, 2021 6:49 p.m.
As a side note-
I also find letter grade and % based grading systems to be useless. School districts and accreditation boards want numbers they can crunch though, and it is much easier to assign a number to students' performance and then use it to tell how the institution is doing. What is far more beneficial to the students is to allow the instructor time to analyze the quality of work and communicate it instead of having to score the work.
It has been a while since I did a deep dive on this, but iirc the first two years of MIT are Pass/Fail. They are the gold standard of technical education in the US, so they do not have to worry about "proving" that their courses are rigorous and demonstrate expected bell curves in grading. Instead they can use the first two years to ensure everyone has a solid understanding of the basics by allowing teachers to work on that understanding with student who are struggling.
August 5, 2021 6:58 p.m.
Gidgetimer that's a fair assessment, I think alot of that is covered when with archtype
My deck is a level 5 mid-range / agro
My deck is a level 6 tempo / combo
But at the end of the day ignorance is bliss and simple people need simple thing while everyone is rushing to get the game started
So even though you have a valid point the only way to get everyone on board is pick a number between 1-10
August 5, 2021 7:03 p.m.
RambIe - its actually more complex than that due to the casual nature of edh and power being subjective. For instance I feel slivers are a boarder line trash teir tribe and they cap at like a 4-5; whereas if you take a sliver deck to most "casual" tables they'll throw fits and act as if you've peed in your cereal. Also, if you contest my point about slivers being a trash teir tribe you're proving my point :)
August 5, 2021 7:10 p.m.
I start with the 1-10 scale I think it brings comfort. But I think it's better to ask things like
- how many turns do your games usually go with this deck?
- do you have fast mana like Vault crypt and others?
- do you have any infinite combos? If so how many?
- are you playing Control? Stax? Tax? MLD? MHD?
- about how much money do you think your deck is worth?... Maybe ask that one
And share this info between the table to really get an idea of what power you are up against. This has really worked great for me in the past. So Gidgetimer do your thing I encourage it. But keep in mind that not everyone operates the same way.
Also now at this point I hate talking about how power levels should be discussed lol.
August 5, 2021 7:20 p.m.
Haha, RNR_Gaming well played, in my playgroup slivers is called training wheels.
But non the less if I sit down and say I'm running level 5 training wheels, you know what my deck does and how how well it does it.
August 5, 2021 7:34 p.m.
Definitely feel that conversation at casual tables should be encouraged. No one should get the feel bads from being blind sided. Also, I feel it's important to actively discourage true casuals away from tournment play - or at the very least inform them that their odds aren't going to be 25% as per the normal games they're use to.