NoOneOfConsequence if that's what it does mostly in your experience, then it did a great job in slwoing people down A FUCKING LOT. People have two options when facing an early remora: slow down and not progress their gameplan while the remora player does OR ignore it and aggressively push for a win, hoping that the remora player can't capitalize enough on the cards they got (also because they might have too few mana). And the thing is, if just one player starts to race into the remora, everyone else has to follow or fall behind far too much.

And that for just one blue mana. It's either slowdown for opponents or carddraw, often both at the same time. Perfect.

@ShreddedByCrows

First off; I’m no mod here nor a regular poster. Just a spike lurker who likes to keep an eye on the ground despite lacking cEDH group and decks. Also I’m always glad to see interest in non-tier generals even for powerful ‘casual’ purposes. So what follows is in good faith.

I don’t want to sound rude, but what exactly is your argument for moving Dagathar?

You yourself said that he’s a suboptimal choice by pointing out several commanders that are far better than him. I see no upside that would encourage ma for instance to pick it up. Abzan offers better commanders, for comp purposes, he might be a vanilla. As for his ability, you’d need infinite mana to make something infinetly big. Other manasink commanders end the game on the spot, while he requires another creature and an actual way to turn that into a win. IMO it requires jumping through too many hoops.

And even all this considered, you provided a casual list you yourself said is suboptimal and that you’re sure that he can offer much. If your list can’t prove your claims or be used for a decklist database, what’s the purpose of linking it?

Again, I’m happy to see interest in a general outside the regular pool of a few dozen that get all the attention. But even as a non-competitive player myself, I don’t understand why should I, or anyone, pick Daghatar more eagerly because of your imput.

JohnnyCRO You got a point. I played my Daghatar on paper for the first time in my playgroup (who's mostly composed of pretty High-Power lists) last Saturday, and I was amazed by the results. I guess I get too easily hyped.

I'm not a regular cEDH player either, which makes my argument in Daghatar's favor even more awkward, but I just wanted to share my experience of its abilities to take up the advantage on a more casual game and thought it was accurate. I realize now I wrote my previous comment with too much enthusiasm...

I'm not trying to say that Daghatar is at the same power level as other well established Abzan commanders (like Karador, Ghave, Anafenza, etc.), but I just want to show that he isn't a terrible and unlogical option either.

The whole point of my previous comment was based on the definition given to Tier 5 commanders listed there: In the context of this list, the Casual category is reserved for Generals that don't provide a mechanical reason to play them - some are vanilla creatures, others are entirely unusable without significant workarounds.

Even if Daghatar isn't the most competitive choice, he still offers a lot of opportunities for a powerful casual commander-centered deck. Its abilities are far from being meaningless and you can build a consistent deck that revolves around him and uses him as a combo piece/win condition you get permanent access to. IMO, when I wrote my previous comment, it wasn't in adequation with its classification on the Tier list. I felt like he's more than just a vanilla creature, but I can from now on also understand why he's counted among them. While he needs some set-up to pull off a combo, he has the potential of being a game ender. But pretty much the same is true for a lot of, if not every, commanders when you've access to infinite mana + another combo piece onto the battlefield. So he's, in fact, nothing better than any other multicolored commander listed on the Casual Tier.

That said, I have to thank your fair criticism. It helped me to realize I was overreacting/over-evaluating things without any realistic background to defend my talking. It was... dumb. I understand why the mods considered him as a vanilla commander.

The decklist I shared was just standing as a rough example of a decklist trying to exploit Daghatar abilities in order to make it a powerhouse. I thought it was a great addition to support my poorly formulated point. It doesn't really matter.

So in conclusion, that suggestion was probably a bit too spontaneous, based on the fact that I just finished building Daghatar on paper and was too hyped after testing him only once since then.

ShreddedByCrows for what it's worth I read Mid Power and Casual to be the same thing.

Anything that swims in competitive games (cough cough Anafenza, the Foremost Stax cough cough) should be moved up to High Power imo. If you're not in High Power trying new/fringe shit and you can't make an argument for a pod composition -- in a competitive setting -- that you're well suited to take advantage of then you're playing Casual as far as I'm concerned.

Hissp that's one cheeky plug for anafenza... I've only seen an anafenza cEDH deck at my lgs which felt like a reasonably strong pod deck.

However, ShreddedByCrows I like to see passion in a player - the passion you have for Daghatar is great! But unless there's a reason to pod him in order to win, I genuinely can't see any significance to running him over Ghave.

So - with regard to the (now moot) discussion about generals with the same capabilities (ie Lord of Tresserhorn & Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge both in the cz of a grixis storm deck): I just want to reiterate that moving decks up/down based on their similarity to another deck is not common. However! If there's a different style of deck with a strong win which Daghatar enables (not necessarily better than ghave) then that build would be much more likely to be added to the list (regardless of power level).

So get brewing and stay Adamant :D

Winterblast I'm not saying the card is useless, but people play useful creature spells a fair amount sometimes if you can believe that, and, like cristalie said, this is a format with cards like Mana Crypt in it.

I mean, for contender of best cards, to me, it's between Mana Crypt, and Demonic Tutor (Sol Ring is obviously up there, too). It's tough, but I think Mana Crypt edges it (DT) out.

I feel that Niv mizzet, parun might be a little low on your list. Having a combo peice, a card draw engine and a spot removal card in your command zone that's uncounterable is really good. A counter war is always in your favor especially if its between the other players. Dramtic/septer kills with your commander. You have a three card intuition combo with look out, eye and curiosity. He also works great with study and ramora. His only real draw back is his cost but this can be gotten around by rocks and if you are feeling spicy rituals.

n0bunga I love the idea of grixis stax ft. Lord of Tresserhorn, using cards like Withered Wretch , Blood Moon , Nether Void . But would Mishra not make for a stronger build?

Also, having seen that food chain gonti deck & depala getting lists, is it fair to offer a grixis flash hulk deck that uses Body Double instead?

Hey, love the list, and I appreciate the effort, but I do have a quick question: Should High Power be split up into two separate tiers? A good amount of the generals in the tier are fringe viable, while many others are not nearly as powerful. Some examples of this for me are Aminatou, Estrid, and Hapatra. They all provide powerful effects and present good slow combo or stax potential. They all have good metas for them, ex. Hapatra in a meta that is devoid of storm can be incredibly powerful. Estrid herself provides an incredible way to break parity, and Aminatou is part of a versatile 3 part combo. Lavinia, Nin, Ruric Thar, Vannifar, the Nivs also could all fall into this category. My point is that generally commanders like these could all slot in above the Arixmethes of the world. Also, Azami, Tawnos, and Hanna could all fit into this category.

Daghatar the Adamant has been moved to Mid Power.

ShreddedByCrows

I think you are underestimating Vorel of the Hull Clade . Check out my deck (still in progress): Vorel Needs More Dice On A BUDGET

Since we are moving abzan commanders up tiers, I was wondering if we could move Anafenza, the Foremost up to high power as it is, from what I can tell, a very similar deck to boonweaver karador but with a commander that allows for easy podlines and helps the strategy of creature-based disruption. I am not an expert so I may be wrong, but it just seems like a much better (or at least equal) commander for the creature-based combo deck.

I haven't been participating in this discussion for a long while it feels like, but I would like to second the suggestion of moving Anafenza up a tier. Aside from the strategy Juanturnkill suggested, she also makes for a potent Hatebear commander that is comparable with Teeg. She fulfills a niche even in cEDH against heavy creature-based combos and reanimator strategies much like how Keranos Blue Moon fulfills a niche against Hermit Druid lists in cEDH. In addition, she also has access to black. Anafenza is arguably better than Teeg in certain metas, and I as well as many others feel as if she's severely underrepresented in Mid-Tier. I'd have to dig through the archives to find my earlier discussion, but the consensus was back then that she belongs in High-Tier, yet none of the mods entertained that notion. I'm glad to see this topic brought up again and I'd like to hear more thoughts on this.

So, mods are you going to write me back about Prime Speaker Vannifar ? Because she definitely does not belong in just high power, she is competitive at least.

Why no love for Ruric Thar??? Your heart is a muscle deck would be my example.

So I know yeva is strong because of the surprise of being able to not commit to the board as green. I was wondering why raff was still so low, I know UW has a hard time closing out games, but is there really not a line of play he can abuse using Kuldotha Forgemaster ? He can tutor both halves of lavinia pool pretty easy, and with raff out will have an easier time of pulling a win back out of the pool. Also being able to flash in the non deterministic value machine that is arcanis (ikk 6 cmc tho) and paradox engine isn't awful. I dont expect him to be competitive but I think with brewing he could reach the low end of high power. I'm going to start brewing to see if there is a line he can find and abuse with a standard UW softlock in play, any ideas?

So I have a hypothetical question, but premises first:

1. I know cEDH is not EDH
2. Commander Damage/Aggro is not currently viable in cEDH

I have heard some ideas recently about shaking up the EDH life totals to be 30 rather than 40 and either doing away with commander damage or making it cumulative from all sources. IF (and its a big if) these changes were to happen, do you think they would be adopted by cEDH, and would that make the meta more friendly to combat wincons, or would combo lines still be utterly dominant (with few exceptions)?

Thank you.

If they make the life totals 30, I riot. This format has enough problems without being MTGO 1v1 Commander. As for commander damage being cumulative, I'd be fine with that, honestly--it'd make keeping track of it simpler, if nothing else.

Ban Rhystic Study . Oh, and Teferi's Protection . Even Cyclonic Rift --I'm tired of putting it in all my blue decks just because it's good. Isn't that the logic behind the Sylvan Primordial ban? That's card not even good, honestly. It's just that no one played anything else.

Just keep life totals, and commander damage the way it is.

I agree. Change nothing except: Unban Sylvan Primordial , print more playables in godo, make anafenza +1 tier. That is all

FWIW, I already had it confirmed personally, on FB, from Sheldon himself, that Commander damage is not going anywhere.

Can we, through some medium: get a screenshot, crstisalie?

@CyborgAeon: http://tinypic.com/r/2my2909/9

I mean, look, it's not like the EDH ban list is specifically constructed with cEDH in mind--a lot of is just dedicated to banning really expensive cards that wouldn't break the format but would give no one any reason to play anything else ( Ancestral Recall ), or annoying pubstomp cards people wouldn't stop playing in casual that aren't actually that great ( Sylvan Primordial , Primeval Titan ). Cards like Yawgmoth's Will and Hermit Druid are way better in the format, obviously, but no one seems to care.

That being said, following that logic, why not ban cards like Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift ? Rhystic is the format's real Ancestral Recall (if Recall had the added effect of recurring itself on your upkeep unless any player paid 1), and it's not like it's ever been even remotely fun to play against in casual. It's not like the game could really function without staples--just because every white deck (in casual) plays Wrath of God doesn't mean that card is overpowered, but, come on, if you can ban Upheaval , you can ban Cyclonic Rift (it's honestly harder to win with upheaval than with cyclonic rift, and, besides, Obliterate isn't banned, is it)?