Veyran, Voice of Duality, what works?
Asked by cooknathan 3 years ago
I'm probably not the only one confused with which triggers
Veyran, Voice of Duality
works with.
603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as “[When/Whenever/At] [trigger condition or event], [effect]. [Instructions (if any).]”
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So cards like Guttersnipe or cards with magecraft clearly work (she triggers her own magecraft), cool, no problem.
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There seems to be a consensus that cards with prowess and similar ( Stormchaser Mage , Aetherflux Reservoir , Wavebreak Hippocamp ) also work so long as it triggers with an instant or sorcery and not another card type. Ok, so maybe the permanent's trigger condition does not need to say 'instant' or 'sorcery'.
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What about if something like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind was triggered with a Brainstorm ? Does the permanent's trigger condition need to say 'cast' too? What 'causes' the triggered ability to trigger? Is it the casting or the drawing? Same question with Baral, Chief of Compliance .
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What about cards that need an extra cost to trigger Lunar Mystic or Mirari ? Do we (or can we, or can't we) pay the extra cost when Veyran triggers it an additional time?
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What about cards like Knowledge Pool or Eye of the Storm which also requires the card to exile?
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What about Primal Wellspring or Pyromancer's Goggles do you get two copies?
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If Runaway Steam-Kin has two counters and you cast a red instant, does it end up with four counters? Does Aria of Flame or Sphinx-Bone Wand get one or two counters? How about Mizzix of the Izmagnus ?
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How does Spellweaver Volute work? DO you get two copies of the same instant?
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I think that covers everything. If anyone has any weird edge cases, this might be a good place to post it. Do any of these cards not work for some reason? Sunbird's Invocation , Jori En, Ruin Diver .
Thanks!
Gidgetimer says... #2
I was right in the case of Spellweaver Volute . It had been some time since I had read the rules for when last known information is used. This case neatly fits into the usage of last known information.
113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
April 22, 2021 10:32 p.m.
cooknathan says... #3
Thanks Gidgetimer, very helpful.
What do you think about point 7 though? I'm guessing the Runaway Steam-Kin will max out at 3 counters (but you can -3 counters +3 mana after the first one resolves, before the second), the Aria of Flame and Sphinx-Bone Wand get two counters per cast and Mizzix of the Izmagnus gets one counter?
April 23, 2021 3:56 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Oh sorry skipped that one as I was referring back and forth between my response and your question.
Aria of Flame , Sphinx-Bone Wand , and Mizzix of the Izmagnus all add two counters. Runaway Steam-Kin has an intervening if clause and will only trigger if the clause is true and only have the effect if the clause is still true upon resolution. So, you are correct that if you do nothing the second trigger will not add counters, but if you make the second trigger to resolve will add counters.
April 23, 2021 7:47 a.m.
Last known information refers to if the source of the ability ( Spellweaver Volute ) leaves the battlefield, not if the enchanted instant leaves the graveyard. The first trigger of the ability will move the Volute to a new instant, the second resolution will copy the newly enchanted card, not the old one, and move it again. If you can't enchant a new instant, Spellweaver Volute will be enchanting nothing and move to the graveyard as a state based action. Last known information will see that Spellweaver Volute was enchanting a card in a graveyard and look for that card, but still fail to find it, so you won't get to copy anything.
April 23, 2021 12:29 p.m.
What about The Mirari Conjecture ?
I think it wouldn't work because Mirari would be sacrificed and therefore wouldn't be a permanent you control when you cast instants?
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
Your first two points are correct, So I am not going to address anything you said in them. I will address the rest of the question in the order the ideas are presented. Though it isn't going to be a nice ordered list, because some of your numbered points are mixing cards that operate differently.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind triggers off of drawing cards, not casting spells. The effect of the spell triggered Niv, not the casting of the spell, so Veyran, Voice of Duality
has no interaction. Baral is the same. As is anything that doesn't trigger from casting a spell.
No cards in MtG need an extra cost to trigger. They trigger and go on the stack, and then have an optional cost to have an effect. Lunar Mystic and Mirari will trigger twice. You can pay as each trigger resolves to get the effect. You can pay for none, one, or both.
An instant or sorcery that triggers Knowledge Pool or Eye of the Storm will trigger them twice. Knowledge Pool requires you to exile the spell to have an effect, so only the first to resolve will have an effect, though there will be two triggers. Eye of the Storm doesn't require you to have exiled the spell to get the effect, so both triggers will have an effect.
Primal Wellspring and Pyromancer's Goggles trigger off of casting an instant or sorcery and so will trigger twice and make two copies.
Spellweaver Volute is an interesting case. I will look up the rules to copying objects that have left the expected zone and get back to you on it. My gut feeling is that 2 copies of the instant will be made.
April 22, 2021 10:24 p.m.