Why print in-deck card removal?
Modern forum
Posted on April 29, 2018, 7:32 p.m. by lordeoftheflies
I don't understand why cards such as Extirpate and Surgical Extraction were printed. To me it seems as if they're going against freedoms that you have in deckbuilding: the other player is basically saying "I don't like this card, so you can't play any more of it."
I'm not saying that I'm against control decks or discard (I even used to play 8-rack in modern) but directly taking cards out of someone's deck seems like a bit too far and not in the spirit of the game.
Also if youre playing Mill and your opponent has any of the original Eldrazi Titans in their deck you cant win without Surgical Extraction
April 29, 2018 10:52 p.m.
they are good against combo decks and help you get rid of their combo pieces, they dont hinder any ones deck building at all. In addition to that they arent even particulary good
April 30, 2018 5:35 a.m.
Really the only reason why those effects are played is to make combo decks (or those that rely extremely heavily on a single card) worse. You would never play them maindeck unless your meta is heavily composed of those decks because it's inherently card disadvantage.
April 30, 2018 8:34 a.m.
Its just another thing to consider when choosing cards to include in your deck. Maybe you try to run one or two of each of Wrath of God and Day of Judgment or whatever it is to fight these problems if its a real issue. Mostly I think its good these things exist as a way to fight against "unfair" combo decks. There are not always good ways to stop multiple kinds of combo decks with the same card. Discard like Duress can do some work against some, even countermagic like Force of Will is designed to fight threats without mana even on turn one but they don't always stop everything. However things like Jester's Cap and Extract were designed to go one step further and remove the threat in advance of it even being drawn by the opponent. I think the ability is basically a mix of mill and discard, and that its often inherently weak since it rarely immediately impacts the board...but it feels like a necessary mechanic to help balance the game as a whole to me.
April 30, 2018 10:26 a.m.
SliverKing90 says... #7
lukas96 if you think Surgical Extraction and Extirpate aren't good, you're not a good player. you do realize that certain modern decks can have their entire win condition stripped away by one of these cards right? turn 1 a player could Thoughtseize followed by Surgical Extraction and boom the opposing storm player just lost all their Grapeshot before even getting a turn
April 30, 2018 11:05 a.m.
Yeah they are good against combo decks as I said, but thats it.
Please stop to insult random people on the internet because you dont understand what makes them say certain things.
April 30, 2018 11:49 a.m.
Yeah, theres no need to insult someone for stating their opinion on a card.
April 30, 2018 12:48 p.m.
flamechampion says... #10
lukas96 i do understand what made you say it. you're a bad player.
MWorl91 when that opinion is wrong, yes there is.
April 30, 2018 7:26 p.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #11
From a flavor standpoint, it makes sense to be able to eliminate a specific spell if youre a Mind Mage or Telepath since we are theoretically wizards casting spells to fight other wizards. If I make you forget the words to a spell, it can be temporary in some cases and the words come back to you but if Im strong enough I couldve also just wiped it from your mind (the library) entirely as if you never even heard of that particular spell let alone learned it. Like you got kicked in the head by a mule.
For Surgical Extraction you could imagine a situation where casting a particular spell also requires the caster directing a spell with a specific hand motion, like making a fist and then fully opening your hand flat with fingers spread and palm facing target, and so your ability to ever cast that spell could be prevented if I were to surgically remove a few of your hand tendons, using some dark magic, so you physically couldnt open hands all the way.
But of course its kinda dumb from a gameplay standpoint. But tutoring is just the reverse as its similarly cheap to be able to get exactly what I need regardless of the randomness of shuffling and a face down library, and there are plenty of ways to prevent the casting of a spell besides removing them, like Pithing Needle style effects.
One of the first FNMs I played when I got back into Magic, after not playing for a decade, a guy beat me with an infinite loop combo. I didnt get it, he had to explain. It didnt feel natural. Took me a while to accept things like infinite loops, mill, Glittering Wish stuff, win-cons like our current Approach of the Second Sun, mass exile like Extraction, and even Storm, were parts of the game. Youre losing cards but theyre spending main board spots.
Plus, countermagic is a thing.
May 3, 2018 12:57 a.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #12
Most peeps dont run it mainboard they wait till game 2 to see what to grab, and so if your deck relies on a specific card you gotta bring in ways from your side to protect it. The downside of a deck relying on a single card is its fragile.
Caerwyn says... #2
Let's look at some reasons why Extirpate and Surgical Extraction cards might exist:
Cards like Meddling Mage and Nevermore exist, but would not be flavourfully appropriate in Black. This gives Black an equivalent without breaking the colour pie.
Mono-Black has issues with combo decks--artifact/enchantment removal is not its strong suit. These two cards give mono-Black a fighting chance against these types of deck.
You still have to work hard to get these cards to work. You have to use a kill spell to get a creature in the graveyard, use a card like Thoughtseize, suffer the ill effects of an opponent's instant or sorcery spell, etc.
A good combo deck has multiple ways to win, so you're not completely crippling your enemy.
The fact these cards exist make deckbuilding more fun for everyone--you never know when you might get hit by a Surgical Extraction, so need to fill your deck with alternative synergies.
These cards make the game a bit more complex, forcing players to adjust their battleplans on the fly when one of their card types have been removed from the game.
April 29, 2018 8:15 p.m.