Casual Fun vs. Competitive (open topic)
General forum
Posted on July 1, 2017, 12:32 a.m. by Audiofreek
Background:
The other day my wife's friend came over to our place to hang out. We had introduced MtG to her shortly after my wife, then girlfriend, started learning to play while we were dating so we would have something to do when all of us are together. The friend is kinda slow at learning new things (un-diagnosed learning disability) but through Magic she has been able better gain a grasp of complex thinking skills.
Anyways.... she has 4 decks that we helped her build to play with and gain more understanding of the game and various concepts of game play. I tend to build semi-competitive decks (ones that may go 50% at tournaments/events) built around various themes that I think would be fun.
Back to the other day now.... She was playing with her U/B control deck (it is actually a pretty good deck that would do well in a sanctioned event) and was losing games constantly against a handful of my decks that I had next to me at the time.
She was determined to win just one game before we would do something else. Her draws were sometimes good and sometimes bad, some would have been better against previous decks and some kept me at-bay until I could find alternate win conditions.
Though I applaud her determination to stick with it until she wins a game, over time I could just see the frustration (maybe rage) building rapidly in her and offered to stop playing and take a break before things got out of control (no pun intended).
You see, I did not want my dining room to turn into the scene from the video on Youtube of the Magic player rage quitting and lifting the table throwing stuff all over the place.
After this thread goes for a bit I will fill you in what happened at the conclusion of the story.
Discussion (this is where you participate):
At what point do you decide to stop/ "retire" playing either a certain deck (because of numerous wins or losses) or stop playing against a friend for fear damaging the MtG portion (or overall level) of your friendship?
Any stories you wish to share would be great as well.
TheAnnihilator says... #3
Yeah, intentionally losing a game can go a long way in making the experience fun. It's usually not fun to do, but still a nice tool to have in your wheelhouse for newer players -- especially if you like to play "unfun" decks. Personally, I play Draw-Go control, which gets frustrating really quickly, so it's important not to win every time.
July 1, 2017 2 a.m.
Audiofreek says... #4
BrownSatan thank you for replying and getting this conversation going. I love when an open discussion happens amongst players.
I did enjoy you stating that you would "toss them a bone" sometime. With this particular person, she knows my decks that I am playing so I couldn't just throw the game(s) and she just wanted to plays hers out until she won with it again. She does much better in 3 or 4 player games in which she and my wife would often gang up on me even when I am playing my slowest or weakest decks.
For this afternoon of games, she wanted to battle me out without my wife playing so she could better herself as a player of the game.
Another story similar to yours is that we have a close friend who used to work for Wizards and his wife is still employed there. We would often head to his place to play and he would bring out 10 or so different decks, some competitive and some "fun" decks. When playing multiplayer games with his decks he would often play a deck once and then move on if he gets certain combos out and creams the rest of us. Most of the time the group has to complain about that because they WANT to play against his decks more than once so they can learn what works best against it.
I do like your suggestion about building new decks around their level of play. I had done that early on with both my (now) wife and the mentioned friend but even at that, building "weenie" or pauper decks can only go so far.
For me, having fun is key. If you take this game way to serious it discourages others from wanting to learn it. We all have good games and bad ones too.
This friend is coming over again next week and wants to try again, but I think I will try convince her to use her newest deck.... a Turtle themed deck which she hasn't played but 2 or 3 games with... and this time I will "toss a bone" so she gains her confidence back.
July 1, 2017 2:28 a.m.
Audiofreek says... #5
TheAnnihilator.... Most decks I design are meant to be "fun" decks the revolve around certain themes. Apparently even the most basic of my decks are strong enough to get multiple victories with.
Have you or someone you know ever gotten to the point that they just want to completely give up if their deck is not working exactly how they think it should? Or, like this friend, gets so determined to make it work even if it was for just one victory?
Thanks for contributing.
July 1, 2017 2:35 a.m.
Winterblast says... #6
I build all my (commander) decks to win at all costs and with a reasonably high budget I usually manage to get any idea, even "funny" concepts, to go for a win within the first 5 turns. However, if I have fucked up a certain opponent like three times in a row and I feel like yet another Choke on turn 2 would really give the mono blue player PTSD, I might wait for a while before I cast it, even though it's strategically not the best move. In the first and last games of the evening I wouldn't make such emotional and objectively wrong decisions.
If a player complains about a certain deck of another player I try to point out the weaknesses so that the seemingly unbeatable deck looks less of a threat. It's often just one's own bad deckbuilding or weak play when an opponent seems invincible. For me it's a motivator to further improve my deck and playing skills and I'd like to get other people to see it that way too.
July 1, 2017 3:40 a.m.
Regarding your question, it's actually pretty relevant to me right now. I played a EDH match against two friends 2 days ago. I was playing Mizzix of the Izmagnus and had forced myself to not put in any infinite combos, the only tutor in the deck is Firemind's Foresight (which came with the precon). While for most of the game I wasn't being able to do much because everything I played got kinda instakilled... in the end I managed to play Expropriate and copy it with Meletis Charlatan... this lead to me taking a couple of extra turns, and eventually kinda storming for the win.
While I was happy to win the game, my friends pointed out they rather not have me play this deck too often (or to be more precise, if I bring it back they'll aim for my head from the start). The reason is not because they lost, but because to win I played alone for like 20 minutes without them being able to do anything (turns out when playing a game people like to actually play the game and not be a bystander).
And that's fine by me. I was happy that I could cast the cards I wanted and that the win was through storm. I won't mind changing the deck now or playing it very rarely... the thing I love the most when playing EDH is not winning per se, but seeing interactions/strategies I haven't seen before in our games... and I'm certainly not going to jeopardise friendship because of a deck.
July 1, 2017 6:50 a.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #8
- I would stop playing a certain deck or retire it when you get repeatedly bad results and lose most games. Back before Origins rotated in Standard, I played a UB Demonic Pact deck. Liliana was my favorite planeswalker who inspired me playing the deck and I would not splash red for Harmless Offering for flavor reasons (not a good choice). Anyway, I really enjoyed playing this deck, but I kept losing over and over again with it. My losses were either due to bad hands, bad luck with top decking, misplays, and/ or just how inconsistent and underwhelming the deck was to the other decks in the meta (how it weakened throughout the game). The games would always be close, and I always blamed the losses on a bad hand or me misplaying without realizing that the deck itself, although good, did not work well enough in that meta. I wish I had come to this conclusion at the time and made a new deck to do better in my matches, because most of my losses were due to just the weakness of the deck. It would have been a confidence booster to have had a more evenly matched deck that I would win with more, because I was piloting the deck to the best of my ability and it just wasn't enough to win.
Once you see a pattern in a certain deck losing, despite how much you like it, I would evaluate why it has been losing and if creating a deck better suited to your meta is the solution.
- This is an issue I have had for a while now. I am younger than most Magic players and have a designated play group for minors at my LGS. Although I have made good friends in the group, I win almost all of our EDH games. I played a Queen Marchesa deck for a while that was mostly commons from a Conspiracy 2 box with some better singles thrown in and beat all of them repeatedly with that deck. Yesterday, I brought my new Thrasios and Kydele deck and my win felt unreal. My deck was just so much more competitive than theirs and I really didn't have to manipulate any of their boardstates, just focus on building my own to swing in and win. I've been facing a dilemma for a while of what to do: (a) stay with my friends who are not challenging me or (b) play with a very competitive group of older men at my LGS that I don't know well. I also would have to adjust my schedule to them playing because they start more than two hours later than my current group. I don't think they would say no to letting me join their group, but it is a possibility too.
Anyway, I would either help or make my friends strengthen their decks if possible or join a new group and make new friends to play with that are better suited to my gaming needs. Tbh, the latter is the most logical choice. Another option is to set a budget for your deck in an attempt to make it competitive with less powerful cards, although that sounds strange too.
July 1, 2017 7:57 a.m.
I like a tight match that has both players in it until the end, win or lose. I have a wide range of deck levels (except the tier1 which I am too cheap to commit to). I also have a large number of decks at tier 2-5 playlevels. One thing we have done in the past is bring our decks and put them all in the middle, then roll for random matchups. Another thing I might do is let a newer player choose first and then find a deck that has a close matchup with the one they picked. I recently dumped some "unfun" cards for cash like Mana Echoes, Aura Shards, and Attrition.
I don't want this to come off wrong but skill is a thing and my brother who is definitely more experienced at competitive magic than me can sometimes (we go in streaks sometimes but usually have very close games) swap decks after beating me and beat me again. Maybe a straightforward deck is something to consider. Control is tough and often requires a ton of knowledge about the meta, people-reading, and bluffing. Aggro and midrange are not as easy to make major strategic misplays with (although that can happen).
July 1, 2017 8:09 a.m.
So the only MTG I can get my wife to play with me is the Elspeth vs Kiora deck... and she always picks Elspeth, cause Elspeth is a badass (we all know that.)
If you've ever played those decks though you'll know that the Kiora really only has one reliable method for stopping Elspeth, Sun's Champion, because short of a few distinct situations, once she hits board, its pretty much game over. That card is Plasm Capture.
I've only actually the cast about 33% of the time when I have it in hand and we play... cause I know she'll just scoop without Elspeth.
Now granted your friend seems to have a lot more... cause I can't find a better term... maturity when it comes to the game. (sorry wifey) But I'm just echoing sometimes its better for everybody, especially players you're teaching, if you bite the dust.
Consider handicapping yourself. Make a pauper deck? Use that. See if it helps the power level balance or anything. Or a deck you know will struggle against control.
My thoughts are just bite the bullet.
As for retiring a deck... I have no opinion.
July 1, 2017 10:08 a.m.
I stubnornly tweak and revise instead of retiring. I splash a new color, swap a splash, adjust the sideboard, change how much I commit to a boardstate or distribute enchantments, refocus control target prioritizations, swap out win conditions
Only twice did I give up: Marath, Will of the Wild combo (and I think I have a deck that could beat it now) and the original breakout standard infect with Inkmoth Nexus.
I relegate to a tier rather than scrapping a deck and I always am trying to improve.
July 1, 2017 1:45 p.m.
BrownSatan says... #12
Audiofreek I love the idea to convince her to play her newest deck. One thing I have learn about my main group is to have more then one deck to play with. Having the same deck can burn you out and start making the game feel the same.
Before my buddy Joseph became experience in the game. Every game he made me his number one target. Costing the board to think I'm a huge threat. That was from me teaching him by 1v1. The teacher became his archnemies. For not realizing what I've done he never learned how to balance the board. Making the other players win the game.
But teaching someone in a group game first isn't easy either. I had a friend who taught his wife by playing in our group games. It gotten to the point we had to kick them out from our future games.
Her husband played her deck like he had two decks. He even copied the same strategies. It felt more like 1v1v2. The worse part was he used his wife to help him win each of the games we played. To help out his wife we target her husband so she can play her own deck. Even when he lose he gets piss off about it and complains the whole time.
So for having to deal with all of that. I had to make certain nights to teach new players and other nights for expert players. With the new players I try to teach them by fighting other new players so they can get use to new decks and different strategies. Also preventing archnemies from happening.
I want my friends to have fun and not feel like a nooby when they play against experience players. When the new players are ready to play with experience players. I usually invite players that I know won't mind having a new player to join. I enjoy having friends that doesn't mind teaching while we play serious.
When I left to travel and came back. My friend Joseph became so experience that he started teaching new players how to play. I was very happy to see how far he gotten and now they are moments he teaches me. My student out master his master. Now he plays with my experience friend group.
If you can add another new player for your friend to play against next week. I believe that would also help your friend to not target you as much and calm down her rage to wanting to beat you.
July 1, 2017 2:54 p.m.
landofMordor says... #13
For me, the epitome of casual play (for EDH at least) is that every player has fun during every game. In other words, nobody gets hard-locked by Leovold, nobody gets Blood Mooned while playing Progenitus, and nobody gets targeted by the control player (for Modern it's a little different because games go quicker). What that boils down to is to try to find deck matchups that are close to 50/50. When my brother and I play casually, we intentionally don't pit mill decks against self-mill decks, we sideboard the mean cards like Mindslaver, and we only play our best decks once or twice. That's not to say we don't try to improve decks, but we need to be realistic that our Gisela aggro deck will never have fun against Oloro stax. So we just avoid that matchup. However, if you're finding that every game is a bad matchup, to the extent that even the winner isn't having fun, then I'd say it's time to consider taking apart a deck or imposing restrictions (theme, budget, tribal) to make it fun. I've done this once with Narset, because we built the deck on $20 and she literally won every game we played with her.
July 1, 2017 5:29 p.m.
Winterblast says... #14
landofMordor I wouldn't say that there is anything like an impossible to win matchup if we are talking about deck archetypes and not a certain build of a player. We do have that sort of rock paper scissors principle in the game, that combo is better against aggro than control and so on, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just that when choosing a certain archetyp you must be aware what the general weaknesses of that strategy are and try to deal with them while keeping the strenghts of the deck.
It can be quite a lot of fun to play a matchup that is objectively not in your favour, like trying to beat a reliable combo deck with aggro, especially in commander. For example, a friend has a combo deck with Arcum Dagsson that can go off quite fast, like turns 2-4 if undisturbed. I like to play against this deck 1 vs 1 with my Rhonas the Indomitable because it's objectively hard to win and such games show me the flaws of my build. Avoiding such matchups won't help much imo. it's actually even worse if you offer someone to play a matchup in which they have the better chance of winning and then they still lose, especially for newer players this might be a bad experience.
July 1, 2017 6:03 p.m.
landofMordor says... #15
Winterblast you make a great point. Especially when it comes to choosing an Archetype and testing/refining a build or improving one's own gameplay, it makes tons of sense to play as many differing matchups as you can. And sometimes, a good challenge is part of a good game experience. But I don't want to force other casual players into that position if I can help it.
What I should have made explicit in my previous comment was that I was restricting my advice more towards balancing playgroups in casual play. I try not to let newer players pilot difficult decks, and the same principle applies to poor matchups -- like, I won't let them borrow my Nekusar deck to play against my Oloro, because I want them to actually learn and/or have fun in a well-matched game. Similarly, when players in a playgroup seem to have poorer overall decks (or perhaps lack experience, like the scenario OP is describing), I don't think it's very fun or sportsmanlike to repeatedly crush them, at which point I would consider steps like advising a different matchup/tuning my deck to more of 75%/imposing a budget to keep powerful cards out/etc.
Thanks for the feedback! i hope this clarifies my end a little bit. I appreciate your comment!
July 1, 2017 10:37 p.m.
grumbledore says... #16
i keep some stock duel decks sleeved up for friends like this.
July 1, 2017 10:49 p.m. Edited.
Audiofreek says... #17
Holy Cow people. I was not expecting to come back today to find all these responses. I like it when a forum just takes off and many different insights are provided to helping one another.
So as promised, here is the conclusion to the story.....
I forced our friend to stop playing for the day. I can tell you she was hardly making any play mistakes, I only caught just a few, but the frustration level over losing over and over and over again got to her, but mark my words she did not want to give up at all.
With her still being a new player I like to use moments like this to teach others how to better use their decks. After most of the games we talked it over about what she could have done differently if any so she has a better grasp on when it is the best times to play certain cards.
I do have to say that in the 2 years that I have known her and with how infrequently she plays the game, she has come a long way and has gotten tons better because she has the desire to learn and try new things. The first deck she ever played was my old Selesnya token deck (which is actually to a new player somewhat complicated), so she decided that was going to be her first deck too. Of course some of the cards in her deck were more basic to help her grasp the game.
From time to time she would revert back to her older decks just so she can remember how some of the other mechanics go and on occasion had discussed revamping the older decks with newer cards to strengthen those decks even more.
I would love to see this discussion keep on moving forward with more insight from the masses so please keep contributing and post questions of your own.
And remember, Magic the Gathering is suppose to be a "fun" social game that draws people together from various walks of life.
July 2, 2017 2:57 a.m.
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BrownSatan says... #2
I had experience the same problem before not just with new players even experience one too. I realize it depend on your play group.
My main group I had to build a different kind of deck for having unfun decks. I would be playing combos that allowed me to board wipe every turn or slow down the game so much that I'll add another hour to the game. Costing myself to be the main target.
My second group they are competitive so they don't mind me to play my unfun decks for the fact that their going to do the same.
When I play with new players I use my new deck for tech testing. Giving them a chance to learn and understand their decks. I even would toss them a bone or two having them feel victories over me.
Once they beat me a couple of times then I'll increase the difficulty. The main thing you want them to do is to have fun. If they lose all the time they will one get mad or two think the game is not fun anymore.
You do not have to redo any of your decks just build a new one around her level or try different strategies that you're not into. Just have fun or toss her a bone once in a wild. As long she is having fun then you know you are doing the right things.
July 1, 2017 1:51 a.m.